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Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:24 am
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Many people say that atheism is not a religion, and in principle, it isn't. Not at all. But it isn't atheism itself that makes some of the extremely militant and fanatic atheists we know, like Richard Dawkins. Some are just as fanatic about their atheism, devotion to it and just as unwilling to hear anything against it (banging-your-head-against-a-brick-wall galore) as some of the ultimate American evangelicals or Muslim extremists.
Something interesting my step-dad, a psychologist, told me was that often, when someone feels an extreme repulsion or downright hate towards something, it's because it is like a part of themselves they want to suppress. You can get annoyed, if you're a really good writer/painter/mathematician or whatever to see someone else's work praised more highly than your own - sometimes because you yourself would rather have the praise. Sometimes it's a talent you don't know you have (personally I don't believe in innate talents but this is just repeating my stepdad). Also, consider some of the more extreme cases of priests that hate e.g. gay people. They themselves could be gay, but unwilling to acknowledge it.
The same can be said about fanatic atheists: They stick to their non-belief religiously, militantly and swipe aside any argument against it. Their 'belief' might not be religion, but they're acting religiously... maybe suppressing a religious side of themselves?
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:11 pm
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No, no, no...
![User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show. User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.](https://graphics.gaiaonline.com/images/s.gif) So wrong that I wonder if you are an xian in disguise, trying to argue with us.
First of all, you characterize Richard Dawkins very inaccurately. The man is a brilliant scientist and humanitarian. Dawkins has heard every argument for the existence of gods, and he doesn't ignore the arguments, he responds eloquently and intelligently to each one, using sound logic to explain why their logic is flawed. The religious use circular logic and every manner of logical fallacy to justify their beliefs, they have no logical basis for belief or for faith. Dawkins is the opposite of evangelicals, but the unsophisticated viewer just sees arguing and is unable to differentiate solid debate from zealotry and ranting, so they lump Dawkins in with the religious fanatics.
I would suggest learning about logic and reason, then you will see why what Dawkins is doing is the polar opposite of what the zealots are doing, and why Dawkins is a great humanitarian in his willingness to do it as patiently as he is. Like any scientist, he is open to being proven wrong in some way, because that is how knowledge is advanced. Conversely, religious people twist reality into any preposterous form they can to maintain a rigid and unchanging belief. Their belief is uninformed by new information. Faith is defined as firm belief in something in the absence of logical proof or material evidence. By its very nature, religious belief is irrational, that is why it is not on the same page as Dawkins. The religious state their reasons for believing as things like: "I believe because the bible says so, and the bible is god's word" or "because it feels true."
There is no logical proof or material evidence that gods exist, and there is plenty of logical proof that particular gods do not exist. Dawkins patiently lays out that logical proof in front of people who are unwilling to, or incapable of, comprehending it - because he wants people to see the facts. That isn't even in the same ballpark as what religious fanatics are doing. They are trying to use fear, intimidation, empty promises and misinformation to get people to leave their rational minds behind and hand over control of their lives to the religion. You have to understand that belief in unicorns is not equivalent to belief in horses. Laying out the evidence against the existence of unicorns to someone who really thinks they do exist is not "religious." It's intelligent.
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:37 pm
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 9:25 pm
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That's partially true for me. As a kid I was as religious as I could've been, but nothing felt quite right. I'd pray to God to tell me the Bible was true, and afterwords I felt no difference. I thought I was doing something wrong. And as a result of a deeply religious household, I couldn't learn as much as I wanted to. Things were kept from me. I couldnt even read Harry Potter. If I had had the information available to me at 7, I wouldve been just as smart at 7 as I am now.
When I see another religious person, it just reminds me how much of my life I wasted believing in an imaginary God. How much time I wasted being kept from "devils theories" like the big bang. How much time I wasted denying my own sexuality. How much time I wasted trying to force a faith on others that I knew, deep down, wasn't really true.
However, I wouldn't say Dawkins is trying to supress anything. The reason he believes in no God(s) is because of the facts he has available to him currently. If there was real proof of a God, and it made real sense, he would believe.
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:40 am
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Quote: First of all, you characterize Richard Dawkins very inaccurately. The man is a brilliant scientist and humanitarian. Dawkins has heard every argument for the existence of gods, and he doesn't ignore the arguments, he responds eloquently and intelligently to each one, using sound logic to explain why their logic is flawed. The religious use circular logic and every manner of logical fallacy to justify their beliefs, they have no logical basis for belief or for faith. Dawkins is the opposite of evangelicals, but the unsophisticated viewer just sees arguing and is unable to differentiate solid debate from zealotry and ranting, so they lump Dawkins in with the religious fanatics.
I read the God Delusion, and thought it a brilliant book, and agreed with pretty much every argument he put forth. I don't agree, though, that he explained every argument for religion; yes, for religion, maybe, but not spiritual beliefs. Needless to say, I'm not spiritual or I wouldn't be here, and, considering that Dawkins is open to proof of religion, should it arise, does make him different. He is. And
Quote: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
, I know, but occasionally, the hostility with which some atheist put forth their arguments does remind me of the same hostility some 'religionistas' do so. I completely agree that hostility is needed - hence the crimes, the extremists, the executions, in the name of religion - all I am saying is that it will occasionally resemble the religious zealots' arguments. It's not that I'm denouncing atheism - or Dawkins (only yesterday I was being harassed for the umpteenth time in class. A very easy way to get pretty much my whole school to hate you is to tell them you don't believe in God - and an extremely easy way of getting confronted with the same question fifty times daily). But then again, you can't average out an entire belief or non-belief; there will always be zealots, intelligent people, and 'normals' of each. But I'm
Quote: So wrong that I wonder if you are an xian in disguise, trying to argue with us.
I'm not :] I'm just trying to have the journey to atheism I never got. A lot of people 'discover' their beliefs. Mine was handed to me on a silver spoon - at least, from one side of the family.
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:39 am
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Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:27 am
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:19 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:48 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:33 pm
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:37 pm
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What you're saying about people supressing part of them is something that does happen, but it's not the case with a majority of people.
I really want to read that book by Dawkins, but it's not at the Library near where I live. sad
I don't bash out on religion, I argue against it, but I don't just yell random, pointless obscenities reguarding religion. I don't hate religion, I just hate the dominance of religion in society. I hate it when religion effects non-religious people, but I don't hate the actual religion.
The problem is, religious fanatics tend to use, say, the bible, as the basis of their arguments. And while they believe it, not everybody does. So when they're arguing the existance of God, and supporting it with things that only apply to Christians, the debate becomes quite pointless.
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Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:50 pm
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:45 pm
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