But I am Canadian... so why add the Chinese part? *RANT*

[tamcharles]

This rant mostly applies to those living in Canada, however feel free to extrapolate and apply it to yourselves. For Americans, this tends not to be an issue. Albeit hated internationally, I admire the American sense of unity and patriotism. I know not everyone can understand this point of view but if you have an alternate viewpoint then please do post it. So let's begin...

I was born in a small town known as Trenton, Ontario where the weather is cool, the fish were biting and the water is well... clean enough. I grew up surrounded by my closest friends and yet it never came to my attention that none of my best friends were Asian. In my city I had always thought that colour or race never really matteredm if you were cool then you were cool despite your colour of skin. Yet, I still couldn't help but be faced with small aspects of racism from ignorant people. They often allowed me to express a more physical form of communication. Aside from that, your racial background never really meant anything to anyone.

When I found out that I had been accepted to the University of Toronto I couldn't help but feel that when I moved there, I would be happily welcomed by the multicultural environment that I was unable to experience in my home town. An exciting aspect of moving to a big city, the most multicultural city in North America! However when I moved to Toronto I have seen nothing but social racism. A type of racism that I had never really thought existed in Canada. Isn't Canada called the melting pot of culture or rather the tossed salad of society? What I had discovered is a type of racism that was ultimately going to tear us apart as learning minds of the future; a future in which we were taught against racism, discrimination and so forth. Yet, at one of the most prominent universities in all of Canada I was faced with a new breed of racism. I could not believe what I was faced with; I found my self surrounded by clubs and groups that initiated on recruiting specific culture groups and social figures, i.e. the Korean Club, the Taiwanese Club, the HK Club, the mainland China Club, the African American Club, the Punjabi Club, the Hindu Club, etc.

Why is it so hard to maintain cultural and ethnical roots in a way that isn't discriminating and alienating each other? Is it necessary to segregate and self-impose a form of racial inequality? And what ever happened to a little admiration towards the country that you now call your home? I mean have you noticed just how unpatriotic Canadians are? I mean have you ever asked someone "where do you hail from? What are you?" the response would not be "I am Canadian" but rather, I am French Canadian, I am Chinese Canadian, I am Greek and part Spanish and so on and so forth... What ever happened to being just Canadian? Take a look at the United States of America; you ask an American citizen what they are they will proudly announce (even prior to 9/11) "I am American." This problem only reflects that because Canada has yet to develop a patriotic spirit, this form of racism and segregation is not seen as socially acceptable but rather a turn of the head will do for us as Canadians.

I am not yellow, brown, black, red, or white, but instead I am a proud Canadian. What's so bad about admiring the country that you now call your home? If you or your family suffered through hardships to get here hoping for a better life then shouldn't you express some pride about that? If you really loved your home country that much, then why would you even leave?

To me, it all breaks down to this, "you can't have your cake and eat it too." So I'll leave you with this final thought: Just what colour are you?  

[Niphredil Ithilmir]

People move to other countries for different reasons, not just because they prefer it there; also, you cannot blame people for wanting to seek out others of the same cultural backgrounds - they will, ultimately, understand them better. And you have to remember that not everyone at your university will be born in Canada - they may have just moved from China or wherever. They're bound to go for people of the same ethnic background, especially in a foreign country. Obviously, they should not discriminate against others because of this, but is having a (for example) "French people's club" racial discrimination? Or just a way for French people to find, talk to and help other French people? After all, they know the difficulties they face better than anyone else does..

Back to the people moving to other countries thing - what if you were a refugee, for exmaple, and had no choice but to leave your country? Of course, anyone can say "if they like their own country so much they could have stayed there" but (although I do agree that if you move somewhere you should try and get with the culture there, not stay ingrained in your own culture and never try and mix with the locals) there's nothing wrong with wanting to keep your own race's traditions and ethics..

And even if you did move somewhere purely to make your own life better, it doesn't mean that you have to become one of them - I mean, my passport says "British" because I've lived here for so long, but if someone asked me what nationality I was or where I came from I'd automatically say "China" because Chinese is what I am, and that can't change. Not that I have anything against Britain or being British, but I'm, well, just not.

Sorry if I'm not making any sense..  

[Darkaznstargoddess]

I agree with Niph, to be honest some people admire their old country more than their new country because in your new country you don't have generations of family history. You can�t really blame people for wanting to be with those of their same cultural background. We were all brought up differently, so we all feel more comfortable around certain groups like Niph has already said.

While in America, I refuse to tell people I'm American when they ask what I am. Simply because I'm not a true American. A native born American citizen yeah but heritage-wise never. Why because my ancestors were not native Americans [Incase anyone gets confused I�m referring to the people that were in the Americas before colonization.], my roots belong in Asia [Even if I have never been there I feel a closer bond/tide with people from there]. 3nodding

Besides being patriotic I think most people that respond �I�m a American� either have too many cultural roots or have no idea what their cultural background is even or because they're so used to saying that. 3nodding I think the patriot state of the USA is starting to annoying me. It�s good to like your country but I think you need to get over yourself once people start claiming your country is #1 over all the countries worldwide.
 

[Tokioka]

I kind of agree more with what tamcharles said. The thing about integration is quite important in my view. If an ethnic group were to integrate entirely into a community then that may not necessarily be the best thing to do culture wise, but I think it would be a good starting point towards racial equality. Obviously, racists do not accept or tolerate others who are different to themselves and by integrating, an ethnic minority could show them that they are the same sort of people. Perhaps going to the pub occasionally, making friends with the locals, becoming 'one of the lads' would help your cause. Once they've seen that you act, speak and eat the same as them, then they would surely accept you as Canadian, British, etc.

I mean, although I'm clearly asian from my appearance, the way I think and act has a British feel to it. If someone did ask me my nationality, I'd say British, not because I'm patriotic and love britain (I actually prefer HK or America smile ), it's just because it was where I was born and raised. The majority of things that have influenced and shaped my character have been western, such as TV & music. Apart from my skin colour and preference in food, you could say I was a briton.  

[yalie5]

mmm... you all state goog points and details to back them up. I mainly agree with niph though. But um... I really don't see what Tamcharles is getting all worked up for. They're not really a big deal. Clubs like the ones you stated are every where and not many people care so um... relax? if possible. lol. Anyway i hate small towns. Seriously i don't like living in small towns. Everyone's so noisy and news spread like wildfire. especially bad news. Even if it's not true. i like big cities... they're safer and people mainly leave me alone. And as for ethnic cultures... well I just realized that i mainly had asian friends all my life... but they were'nt that nice... i kept feeling like i didn't belong with them and that they were picking on me. Especially the girls... i thought they were really mean while trying to be nice (I wonder if that makes sense) anyways a little off topic there. And I've always thought that America was the melting pot of the world. Hmm... a little confuzzled on that. But anyways when people ask me where I'm from I usually say New York because I've lived there for more than half of my life. Then they ask me If I'm american. I find that funny. I find alot of things funny. I feel like putting something idiotic here to lighten the mood but i don't think it's the right time for it either lol. By the way Tamcharles there is social and cultrual seperations even in a ethnicity. Have you ever been in a group where the people look similar to you and they're familiar with you but you never felt like you belonged with them? Like no matter what even if you're backround is the same as theirs there's something that makes you different from them so that they'll never fully accept you? if you have then maybe you might understand what i'm saying because i'm a very confusing person... I even confuse myself sometimes lol.  

[tamcharles]

yalie5

mmm... you all state goog points and details to back them up. I mainly agree with niph though. But um... I really don't see what Tamcharles is getting all worked up for. They're not really a big deal. Clubs like the ones you stated are every where and not many people care so um... relax? if possible. lol. Anyway i hate small towns. Seriously i don't like living in small towns. Everyone's so noisy and news spread like wildfire. especially bad news. Even if it's not true. i like big cities... they're safer and people mainly leave me alone. And as for ethnic cultures... well I just realized that i mainly had asian friends all my life... but they were'nt that nice... i kept feeling like i didn't belong with them and that they were picking on me. Especially the girls... i thought they were really mean while trying to be nice (I wonder if that makes sense) anyways a little off topic there. And I've always thought that America was the melting pot of the world. Hmm... a little confuzzled on that. But anyways when people ask me where I'm from I usually say New York because I've lived there for more than half of my life. Then they ask me If I'm american. I find that funny. I find alot of things funny. I feel like putting something idiotic here to lighten the mood but i don't think it's the right time for it either lol. By the way Tamcharles there is social and cultrual seperations even in a ethnicity. Have you ever been in a group where the people look similar to you and they're familiar with you but you never felt like you belonged with them? Like no matter what even if you're backround is the same as theirs there's something that makes you different from them so that they'll never fully accept you? if you have then maybe you might understand what i'm saying because i'm a very confusing person... I even confuse myself sometimes lol.

Hehe... I was wondering when you'd post. For the record, this doesn't bother me at all. I'm just trying to get some debate going... fanning the flames if you will. Heh... dance my puppets. Dance! twisted  

[Niphredil Ithilmir]

And yet you don't reply to our points...?  

[Tokioka]

Niphredil Ithilmir

And yet you don't reply to our points...?

That's some good questioning technique you got there, niphy. I'm real glad that it's not me getting grilled. wink  

[Niphredil Ithilmir]

Tokioka

Niphredil Ithilmir

And yet you don't reply to our points...?

That's some good questioning technique you got there, niphy. I'm real glad that it's not me getting grilled. wink

Aww, thanks. I try ^^

Debating is one of my few passions >.<  

[tamcharles]

Niphredil Ithilmir

And yet you don't reply to our points...?

Sorry about that, I guess in hindsight that's my fault. I should've waited to rant when I actually had a chance to reply. My timetable during the week isn't very forgiving... just ask wiim. razz

Anyways, just so you know, I purposely wrote the opening post so that I could get a nice response. I know it might of ruffled a few feathers but look at all the good reading that's come out it. :nods:

So let's get down to it shall we?

@yalie5: Don't get the impression that I'm actually worked up over this. If anything, I find it more to be a curiosity of Canadian culture than anything else. Nevertheless, I mainly wanted to point out that in Canada, it seems that every time an ethnic modifier is used, it dilutes the sense of being a Canadian. There's a certain pride involved, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing... but it's almost like a gradual erosive force being applied. I know what you mean about the intra-ethnic social and cultural separations and if anything, I'm one who supports it. However, I still try to maintain an open mind such that at least I can tolerate being around people who aren't like me. That said, let me jump to Darkaznstargoddess' comment.

@Darkaznstargoddess: I can appreciate that people would feel more attached to their home country than their new country. If anything that's expected but too much or too little of anything can turn it into something bad. With that rationale in mind, the American culture has a lot of Patriotism (arguably too much) and in contrast it would seem that Canadians show a lack thereof. There's something to be said when a Canadian can't simply be satisfied in just saying "I'm Canadian." It implies that being a Canadian (that they freely chose to be) isn't good enough... we all need to be a something-Canadian. It's now surprise that people feel they need extra support to get on their feet in a new country. That's reasonable by any means and it is supposed to be tough. Change is tough... so why can't they put in some extra effort? Like Tokioka pointed out, got to the pubs, meet new people, join the club... shyness isn't an excuse, for one you just left your home country. If that's not a big change in and of itself, than what is? So let me jump again to Niphredil's point.

@Niphredil Ithilmir: I know people have more history back home and well that's almost a given. I'm not saying people should not be comfortable and seek out others like themselves but in doing so, it segregates everyone else. This then leads another set of individuals to feel uncomfortable so they, in turn, seek out their peers and so on and so forth. This vicious cycle just doesn't end... in fact it continues to get stronger even after people have dealt with and overcome the difficulties they seeked support for. So then, where is the national pride if someone holding the papers of that country simply can't bring themselves to declare that they're of that country? I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Canada. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to this country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of Canada being a
multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. So I think it's the system that's the culprit here. Immigration doesn't properly prepare immigrants for their life here. Perhaps their language skills aren't good enough, perhaps they don't have the proper skills to make a living or perhaps they don't have the support they need to even get started. I hate to say it, but immigration is a privilege not a right. If they can't integrate into their new society properly, then that damages the society. Doesn't it?

@Tokioka: Integration is important and you do have a point as well regarding obtaining racial equality. When moving to another country, we all know that they have their own culture, their own society, their own language and their own lifestyle. This culture was been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. So why is it so hard to acknowledge that? I'm not attacking you or anyone here when I say this but when you go to someone else's house do you ask them to speak your language or assume your cultural-style? Nope, you adjust to theirs. It boils down to politeness and respect.

@all: You've probably noticed a reoccurring theme by now, it seems to me that some Canadians need to realize that as welcoming as the country is, it shouldn't be taken advantage of. I implied this earlier that as Canadians... we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. Of course it's not home until you make it your home... but at the same time, it's time to realize that Canada will not be like home... ever. When an immigrant moves, I can't think of another thought that would have more precedence in his mind. He's living... and it's not going to be the same. The difference isn't necessarily bad and it's not necessarily good either, however what's the point of a multicultural society when it's stops becoming an intertwined mosaic but resembles more like a stained-glass window that's been smashed in? Any immigrant coming from any other place should recognize this. By leaving, you have already given up your past and your history... by entering a new country, you have just accepted responsibility to become a new citizen of that nation. Within those responsibilities is to adjust and change... to join the society not fragment it even more.

For every choice, there is a cost... which means you need to work extra hard at it. You're not in Kansas anymore folks.

Sorry if my argument seems a little jumpy, it was hard to integrate all your posts into one big response (yes I know, I should've replied earlier but it's too late for that now). Hopefully I'll spark some more replies. I love this kinda stuff. lol  

[tamcharles]

Niphredil Ithilmir

Tokioka

Niphredil Ithilmir

And yet you don't reply to our points...?

That's some good questioning technique you got there, niphy. I'm real glad that it's not me getting grilled. wink

Aww, thanks. I try ^^

Debating is one of my few passions >.<

Darn you impatient people... organzing my thoughts wasn't easy (as you'll see)... especially with the greater-than-expected interest in the topic. xd blaugh  

[[Major General] Andrews]

tamcharles

Niphredil Ithilmir

And yet you don't reply to our points...?

Sorry about that, I guess in hindsight that's my fault. I should've waited to rant when I actually had a chance to reply. My timetable during the week isn't very forgiving... just ask wiim. razz

Anyways, just so you know, I purposely wrote the opening post so that I could get a nice response. I know it might of ruffled a few feathers but look at all the good reading that's come out it. :nods:

So let's get down to it shall we?

@yalie5: Don't get the impression that I'm actually worked up over this. If anything, I find it more to be a curiosity of Canadian culture than anything else. Nevertheless, I mainly wanted to point out that in Canada, it seems that every time an ethnic modifier is used, it dilutes the sense of being a Canadian. There's a certain pride involved, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing... but it's almost like a gradual erosive force being applied. I know what you mean about the intra-ethnic social and cultural separations and if anything, I'm one who supports it. However, I still try to maintain an open mind such that at least I can tolerate being around people who aren't like me. That said, let me jump to Darkaznstargoddess' comment.

@Darkaznstargoddess: I can appreciate that people would feel more attached to their home country than their new country. If anything that's expected but too much or too little of anything can turn it into something bad. With that rationale in mind, the American culture has a lot of Patriotism (arguably too much) and in contrast it would seem that Canadians show a lack thereof. There's something to be said when a Canadian can't simply be satisfied in just saying "I'm Canadian." It implies that being a Canadian (that they freely chose to be) isn't good enough... we all need to be a something-Canadian. It's now surprise that people feel they need extra support to get on their feet in a new country. That's reasonable by any means and it is supposed to be tough. Change is tough... so why can't they put in some extra effort? Like Tokioka pointed out, got to the pubs, meet new people, join the club... shyness isn't an excuse, for one you just left your home country. If that's not a big change in and of itself, than what is? So let me jump again to Niphredil's point.

@Niphredil Ithilmir: I know people have more history back home and well that's almost a given. I'm not saying people should not be comfortable and seek out others like themselves but in doing so, it segregates everyone else. This then leads another set of individuals to feel uncomfortable so they, in turn, seek out their peers and so on and so forth. This vicious cycle just doesn't end... in fact it continues to get stronger even after people have dealt with and overcome the difficulties they seeked support for. So then, where is the national pride if someone holding the papers of that country simply can't bring themselves to declare that they're of that country? I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Canada. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to this country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of Canada being a
multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. So I think it's the system that's the culprit here. Immigration doesn't properly prepare immigrants for their life here. Perhaps their language skills aren't good enough, perhaps they don't have the proper skills to make a living or perhaps they don't have the support they need to even get started. I hate to say it, but immigration is a privilege not a right. If they can't integrate into their new society properly, then that damages the society. Doesn't it?

@Tokioka: Integration is important and you do have a point as well regarding obtaining racial equality. When moving to another country, we all know that they have their own culture, their own society, their own language and their own lifestyle. This culture was been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. So why is it so hard to acknowledge that? I'm not attacking you or anyone here when I say this but when you go to someone else's house do you ask them to speak your language or assume your cultural-style? Nope, you adjust to theirs. It boils down to politeness and respect.

@all: You've probably noticed a reoccurring theme by now, it seems to me that some Canadians need to realize that as welcoming as the country is, it shouldn't be taken advantage of. I implied this earlier that as Canadians... we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. Of course it's not home until you make it your home... but at the same time, it's time to realize that Canada will not be like home... ever. When an immigrant moves, I can't think of another thought that would have more precedence in his mind. He's living... and it's not going to be the same. The difference isn't necessarily bad and it's not necessarily good either, however what's the point of a multicultural society when it's stops becoming an intertwined mosaic but resembles more like a stained-glass window that's been smashed in? Any immigrant coming from any other place should recognize this. By leaving, you have already given up your past and your history... by entering a new country, you have just accepted responsibility to become a new citizen of that nation. Within those responsibilities is to adjust and change... to join the society not fragment it even more.

For every choice, there is a cost... which means you need to work extra hard at it. You're not in Kansas anymore folks.

Sorry if my argument seems a little jumpy, it was hard to integrate all your posts into one big response (yes I know, I should've replied earlier but it's too late for that now). Hopefully I'll spark some more replies. I love this kinda stuff. lol

Too bad I'm not patriotic...I'm a loyalist...

A loyalist is an individual who is loyal to the powers that be. Canada, therefore Canadian.  

[Minielf]

I don't really know what you guys have said applies to where I live (I'm an Australian). But then again Canada is similar to Australia in many ways, in that its a far more diverse and multiculturial country than America I guess. America is unnatural in the way that ppl of different races there all vehemently claim that they're American. Most other nations which are strongly patriotic seem to consist of predominantly one race.

Here in Australia I think multiculturalism is of an even bigger problem than it is in Canada. Unlike Canada, Australia's population has mostly grown from immigration from overseas. There are very few anglo-saxons proportionally to the total population. Most Australians have at least some French/German/Italian/Spanish/Greek/Chinese/Asian blood in them, and these communities too also form selective ethinic clubs. What is more, I think you Canadians at least have some sense of traditional national culture, being that French and British culture has been in Canada for several hundred years. Australia however, has barely existed for more than 200 years, and even the original settlers were a mish-mash of races from England, Scotland and Ireland.

Sadly, I don't feel much real patriotism for my country. I love living in it for sure, but I wouldn't fight and die for it or strongly say I am Australian. My nation has become far too multicultural to even integrate everyone into one common national identity.  

[tamcharles]

Minielf

I don't really know what you guys have said applies to where I live (I'm an Australian). But then again Canada is similar to Australia in many ways, in that its a far more diverse and multiculturial country than America I guess. America is unnatural in the way that ppl of different races there all vehemently claim that they're American. Most other nations which are strongly patriotic seem to consist of predominantly one race.

Here in Australia I think multiculturalism is of an even bigger problem than it is in Canada. Unlike Canada, Australia's population has mostly grown from immigration from overseas. There are very few anglo-saxons proportionally to the total population. Most Australians have at least some French/German/Italian/Spanish/Greek/Chinese/Asian blood in them, and these communities too also form selective ethinic clubs. What is more, I think you Canadians at least have some sense of traditional national culture, being that French and British culture has been in Canada for several hundred years. Australia however, has barely existed for more than 200 years, and even the original settlers were a mish-mash of races from England, Scotland and Ireland.

Sadly, I don't feel much real patriotism for my country. I love living in it for sure, but I wouldn't fight and die for it or strongly say I am Australian. My nation has become far too multicultural to even integrate everyone into one common national identity.

Hmm... I guess I didn't really consider how it would be if things were worse. But how do you think it speaks for someone who is Australian to admit that he/she wouldn't fight for their own country? Isn't that a bad thing? Especially if that becomes the predominant view of things?  

[Minielf]

Well, perhaps I phrased that wrongly. What I really meant is that the people of my nation would be willing to fight and die to defend the nation, and the Commonwealth of States it represents, especially as obligation towards America or to protect their soil. But fighting to protect a cultural identity? I don't think so. At least you Canadians actually have some sort of cultural identity that you feel like you belong to. Unfortunately for me there is no such thing as an 'Australian culture or identity'.

Some outsiders would say that the classic Aussie culture is being in the outback, the bushman and his tucker, of the wide open plains, and a larrikin attitude. They have absolutely no idea of the truth. Hardly 1% of all Australians are actually there bushmen. The majority of people live in the coastal cities, and there, even the Anglo-saxons do not confirm to any one singular identity.

I guess I don't feel as ostracised as you because there is an increasingly great proportion of native and foreign born Chinese and other Asians here in Australia. We probably have greater tolerance and respect for other major cultures, but that doesn't mean we share a close national attachment.