Tolerance: where's the line

[Athena_Ritashe]

There was a recent event in the guild where an exmember ended up "finding God" and tried to persuade other members to become theistic. This resulted in her losing her membership.

I did not feel troubled that she converted to Christianity, but I felt troubled at her attitude of superiority. She made the statement "it's hardly spreading the good news to laugh at how stupid you are (which, atheism is stupid, but he/she still didn't have to be mean about it)" which is drawing the line to me.

I'm going to make a statement that is just an opinion and I would like to know the opinions of others on the topic of tolerance. Richard Dawkins is the anti-theist Atheist. He takes the stance that the world would be a better place if religion was wiped away from the collective conscious of global civilization. To him religion is a matter of truth vs. comfort and to believe in God is to chose comfort over truth. I see this is a faulty statement for two reasons. One is that a person such as myself finds comfort in the truth. I am not choosing one over the other, I am choosing both. I felt great unease in my consciousness about god and religion until I accepted the premise that there probably is no god. My head actually feels a lot better about accepting the fact that there is no god then to wonder and speculate and try to figure out the god enigma. Another is that we do not actually know the truth. We can make very good guesses on it, but we are human and we are faulty so anything we consider true is some sort of approximation of the truth.

So I see all religion as an interpretation of the reality we live in. Religions offer explanations and meanings to what we really don't know. Therefore I do not have a problem with people who believe in this or that religion. What does bother me is when people start believing that they know the truth, that they have secret answers to those pesky philosophical dilemmas that have been plaguing mankind for thousands of years. Since they believe they know the truth they also think they are superior in comparison to people believing in other religions and take the stance that people believing in other religions are deluding themselves. When someone starts stating they know the truth and that they are more valuable then I am they have crossed the line to me.

So some questions for the reader:
What do you think about the truth?
What do you think of other religions / philosophical views?
Do you think there should be tolerance?
And where do you see the line for tolerance when you can no longer tolerate someone else?

And one more thing... I believe that most Atheists are tolerant of other religions, we can accept that people believe in different things. But Atheists are becoming anti-theistic as a response to Christians and others trying to push their agenda into the public sphere and push tolerance and secularism out. They push their views and we must push back. What do you think?  

[Meirelle]

I seriously don't care what anyone else believes. I'll respect their religion if they in turn respect my lack of religion. The minute they force a belief on me or try to convert me, the niceness is over.

In other words, I don't judge a person by their beliefs until they decide to judge me by mine.

The majority of people I know are religious, and some of them I love dearly. It's really the fundies who are the thorn in the side. They make all religion look bad, and really, it's not.

 

[WolfSyndrome]

What do you think about the truth?

The truth is the correct answer to a statement. In school, the truth looks like this:

Bob, Mary, and Joe are wearing hats. What color is Joe's hat?
A. blue
B. pink
C. not enough information

In school, the wrong answer means you get an F. In day-to-day life, the wrong answer means you are either ignorant, arrogant, or mentally unstable.

What do you think of other religions / philosophical views?

Any religion who holds the belief that God's existence is obvious, self-evident, etc. is either ignorant, arrogant, or mentally unstable.

Any philosophy who holds the belief that "God" is unnecessary is either ignorant, arrogant, or mentally unstable. Of course "God" and God are being used here to represent a real being and an imaginary concept. No matter how necessary the imaginary concept might be does NOT change the fact that the existence of God as a real being is currently unknown.

The concept of God as a higher power that people need to be held accountable to is absolutely necessary. For instance, logic is necessary, therefore it is my God. Love (a.k.a. empathy, altruism, etc.) is necessary, therefore it is my God. I am necessary, but there is a hierarchy that needs to be explained, otherwise calling myself God would be a contradiction.

1. God is Love (do what's right for the survival of the species)
Note: This is the literal equivalent of "God" or "Good" as described by pop-theism.
2. God is Logic (follow the laws of nature)
Note: This is the literal equivalent of "Angel" as described by pop-theism.
3. God is Self (do what is right to preserve self)
Note: This is the literal equivalent of "Satan", or "Evil".

So, Love is God while Logic is angels and Self is Satan. To fix another seemly contradiction, sometimes the hierarchy changes. It does so depending on what's in danger of being destroyed. When self is in danger, Self is God until the danger is escaped. When the group is threatened, Love is God. When no life is threatened, Logic is God as it is the source of preventing future danger. When both group and self are threatened, God and Satan (i.e. "good and evil") war against each other in an effort to determine what's more important, self or others. There is no answer to this question. That's what makes life interesting. There is always a search for the answer. It is the search for the meaning of life. It is the search that has no end. That's what makes life...live!

Do you think there should be tolerance?

I choose tolerance "Good" when no life is threatened, such as in a debate with a Christian where that Christian's views don't directly affect the well-being of an individual.

I choose intolerance "Evil" when the Christian's belief prevents their child from going to the hospital for chemotherapy because they prefer "faith healing".

And where do you see the line for tolerance when you can no longer tolerate someone else?

I am only intolerant of bad ideas, not people. However, when an individual is insistent upon using bad ideas, such as strapping bombs to children, then I allow my irrational side to equate the individual with their beliefs/actions and, therefore, give myself permission to destroy them by whatever means I see fit. twisted  

[Kidrahs]

Meirelle

I seriously don't care what anyone else believes. I'll respect their religion if they in turn respect my lack of religion. The minute they force a belief on me or try to convert me, the niceness is over.

In other words, I don't judge a person by their beliefs until they decide to judge me by mine.

The majority of people I know are religious, and some of them I love dearly. It's really the fundies who are the thorn in the side. They make all religion look bad, and really, it's not.

Same here. Im a tolarent guy, but if you try to jam something down my throat (food excluded, depending on the situation lol), i'll shove back ten times harder.  

[Falhalterra]

My tolerance of a religion goes over the line when I remember the Crusades, Dark Ages and the Inquisition as well as recent murders done by religious ******** who says religion is a good thing to me, only applies that as a psychological way of dealing with things they think they can't deal on their own. Complete bullshit then.

So there is no way any religion that kills others really has my respect.  

[Sanguvixen]

Quote:

What do you think about the truth?
What do you think of other religions / philosophical views?
Do you think there should be tolerance?
And where do you see the line for tolerance when you can no longer tolerate someone else?

And one more thing... I believe that most Atheists are tolerant of other religions, we can accept that people believe in different things. But Atheists are becoming anti-theistic as a response to Christians and others trying to push their agenda into the public sphere and push tolerance and secularism out. They push their views and we must push back. What do you think?

The only truth I can think of as being THE TRUTH is that there is no truth. I cannot tell a person there is no god because I do not know, but at the same time they cannot tell me there is one because they do not know.

Don't confuse that as making me Agnostic soley because lately I've come to the realization that you can be Atheist and Agnostic too....atheist in not having a positive belief in a god, and agnostic in admitting at the end of the day you don't know. That is the ultimate truth.

I think they are all bull-s**t because most of them claim to have the real answer. They make these grandiose claims....and claim them to be true, but blind faith is neither certainty or knowledge. They don't know or possess anything I don't have, other than blind faith. That said if people want to still believe in such things, they have to know where to draw the line. Your religion should not rule the world, it should not ever be a basis for creating our laws, and you should never preach to others you know the "Truth" and that you are 100 percent right.

There should be tolerance to some extent. Tolerate people for their beliefs even if you think they are bull-s**t. Don't tolerate the beliefs encroaching other's lives, in the way of rules, laws, and discrimination. That of course is the line....you don't say you know you are right because then you are not tolerable. You do not preach to others that you are right that is also intolerable. You do not try to influence laws to be made or rules to be enforced based on your religious views, that is not tolerable. You do not openly discriminate others due to religion because that is not tolerable.  

[Athena_Ritashe]

Sanguvixen

Quote:

What do you think about the truth?
What do you think of other religions / philosophical views?
Do you think there should be tolerance?
And where do you see the line for tolerance when you can no longer tolerate someone else?

And one more thing... I believe that most Atheists are tolerant of other religions, we can accept that people believe in different things. But Atheists are becoming anti-theistic as a response to Christians and others trying to push their agenda into the public sphere and push tolerance and secularism out. They push their views and we must push back. What do you think?

The only truth I can think of as being THE TRUTH is that there is no truth. I cannot tell a person there is no god because I do not know, but at the same time they cannot tell me there is one because they do not know.

Don't confuse that as making me Agnostic soley because lately I've come to the realization that you can be Atheist and Agnostic too....atheist in not having a positive belief in a god, and agnostic in admitting at the end of the day you don't know. That is the ultimate truth.

I think they are all bull-s**t because most of them claim to have the real answer. They make these grandiose claims....and claim them to be true, but blind faith is neither certainty or knowledge. They don't know or possess anything I don't have, other than blind faith. That said if people want to still believe in such things, they have to know where to draw the line. Your religion should not rule the world, it should not ever be a basis for creating our laws, and you should never preach to others you know the "Truth" and that you are 100 percent right.

There should be tolerance to some extent. Tolerate people for their beliefs even if you think they are bull-s**t. Don't tolerate the beliefs encroaching other's lives, in the way of rules, laws, and discrimination. That of course is the line....you don't say you know you are right because then you are not tolerable. You do not preach to others that you are right that is also intolerable. You do not try to influence laws to be made or rules to be enforced based on your religious views, that is not tolerable. You do not openly discriminate others due to religion because that is not tolerable.

I agree with 90% of what you say, however I disagree with you on the statement that there is no truth. To me truth is the way things really are. The problem is humans have a limited scope in knowledge and ability to observe thus cannot reach the truth, we can reach an approximation of it. So while there is an absolute truth there is no one that has been able to reach it. Anyone claiming to know the truth is either a liar or self deluded.  

[Sanguvixen]

Athena_Ritashe

Sanguvixen

Quote:

What do you think about the truth?
What do you think of other religions / philosophical views?
Do you think there should be tolerance?
And where do you see the line for tolerance when you can no longer tolerate someone else?

And one more thing... I believe that most Atheists are tolerant of other religions, we can accept that people believe in different things. But Atheists are becoming anti-theistic as a response to Christians and others trying to push their agenda into the public sphere and push tolerance and secularism out. They push their views and we must push back. What do you think?

The only truth I can think of as being THE TRUTH is that there is no truth. I cannot tell a person there is no god because I do not know, but at the same time they cannot tell me there is one because they do not know.

Don't confuse that as making me Agnostic soley because lately I've come to the realization that you can be Atheist and Agnostic too....atheist in not having a positive belief in a god, and agnostic in admitting at the end of the day you don't know. That is the ultimate truth.

I think they are all bull-s**t because most of them claim to have the real answer. They make these grandiose claims....and claim them to be true, but blind faith is neither certainty or knowledge. They don't know or possess anything I don't have, other than blind faith. That said if people want to still believe in such things, they have to know where to draw the line. Your religion should not rule the world, it should not ever be a basis for creating our laws, and you should never preach to others you know the "Truth" and that you are 100 percent right.

There should be tolerance to some extent. Tolerate people for their beliefs even if you think they are bull-s**t. Don't tolerate the beliefs encroaching other's lives, in the way of rules, laws, and discrimination. That of course is the line....you don't say you know you are right because then you are not tolerable. You do not preach to others that you are right that is also intolerable. You do not try to influence laws to be made or rules to be enforced based on your religious views, that is not tolerable. You do not openly discriminate others due to religion because that is not tolerable.

I agree with 90% of what you say, however I disagree with you on the statement that there is no truth. To me truth is the way things really are. The problem is humans have a limited scope in knowledge and ability to observe thus cannot reach the truth, we can reach an approximation of it. So while there is an absolute truth there is no one that has been able to reach it. Anyone claiming to know the truth is either a liar or self deluded.

That was not a broad statement. There is no "Truth" when it comes to gods, the existence or non-existence, and or the afterlife. You cannot know either way so there is not use pretending.  

[[-Erik-]]

The thrut?

Nobody knows it.

 

[Moochka]

I think instead of asking for and giving "tolerance." We should be seeking and providing Acceptance. I'm not saying run out and hug a Christian, or convert to Catholicism. I think it would just be better that everyone Accepted everyone else. But that will prolly never happen.  

[D i v i n i t y]

What do you think about the truth?
I think that no one can know any absolute truths (except for in math), but can only deem things more probable than others. I think that atheism is true and more probably (MUCH more probable) than any religion because there are so many flaws with theism in general, and all the arguments supporting theism can be logically rejected. The good arguments for atheism, however, I have never seen logically rejected by any arguer.

What do you think of other religions / philosophical views?
I am somewhat tolerant (I won't spew s**t at people unless they are disrespectful to me first, but I do believe that religion is bad for a society in general and will gladly defend that viewpoint if asked. I think everyone has a right to believe in what they believe in no matter how deluded I think they are. It's one of the beauties of having protected natural rights.

Do you think there should be tolerance?
yes and no. Now, I think there should be tolerance since we are too outnumbered. Eventually though, I think religion should be laughed at. I think belief in any religion or deity should be a belief comparable to believing Elvis is still alive (Sam Harris made a nice analogy of this. You can youtube it if you want to watch). I don't think religion should be so respected as it is today. Hopefully, in the future, people will realize the truth.

And where do you see the line for tolerance when you can no longer tolerate someone else? If someone ignorantly puts someone (or myself) down and deliberately insults us. If someone is being rude then I will retaliate with fun facts, logical rebuttals and a necessary amount of rudeness.  

[Raticiel]

Truth: well, I'm sure there is some kind of "truth". At least in my head whee logical/mathematical "truths" are just tautologies and actually aren't similar to the "truth" about the world/how things really are... Of course I am a proffesional doubter, so I doubt our ability to achieve that "truth" (or even "the Truth"), still I keep on searching. Life is more fun with such dramatical goal, don't you think?

I am absolutely tolerant, as long as I see someone's just having a different view. But when I see foolishness I sometimes just have to react, but mostly when it comes to intellectual stuff... Oh, and there is one exception: I'll never tolerate hurting animals.

Of course our world would be much nicer and brighter if people could just simply bear the fact we are different and we believe other things... some people believe in god, some believe in science, some believe only in themselves...  

[StevenStBlaize]

The truth is that there is no God. Religion is a plague on humanity that has caused enough suffering. I have read Dawkins book and I agree completely with everything he says. The world would be a better place without the poison of self righteous religious fanatics pushing their views this way and that. I am completely opposed to any kind of deitic theories of the universe. There may be things going on around us that we cannot perceive or comprehend, but the is absolutely no "Man Upstairs". Tolerance is the retarded younger brother of acceptance. Religion should not be tolerated. It's not like any religion is tolerant of anyone else's ideas. Why should we act any differently to these closed-minded sects? When the subject is brought up, I speak my views and completely refute the arguments of others. I don't argue out of ignorance, I can and often do hold my own in many a theistic debate.  

[Raticiel]

StevenStBlaize

The truth is that there is no God. Religion is a plague on humanity that has caused enough suffering. I have read Dawkins book and I agree completely with everything he says. The world would be a better place without the poison of self righteous religious fanatics pushing their views this way and that. I am completely opposed to any kind of deitic theories of the universe. There may be things going on around us that we cannot perceive or comprehend, but the is absolutely no "Man Upstairs". Tolerance is the retarded younger brother of acceptance. Religion should not be tolerated. It's not like any religion is tolerant of anyone else's ideas. Why should we act any differently to these closed-minded sects? When the subject is brought up, I speak my views and completely refute the arguments of others. I don't argue out of ignorance, I can and often do hold my own in many a theistic debate.

Dawkins, eh? rolleyes
I think science is just another form of religion...
And I've never seen a good proof for god's non-existence. As well as god's existence.  

[alteregoivy]

I have to say, I actually do believe that the world would be better off without religion. There was so much harm in history and now that is a direct cause of it. However, there does need to be something to fill the void there, and the simply stance of "lack of belief" isn't going to cut it. If religion were to leave existence, there would have to be a formalized social contract, as it were.

I think just as fundamentalists took their religions in all the wrong directions, there would still be people who wouldn't see the merit of just being a decent human being without God watching over them.

As far as truth... The thing about science that I think makes it critically different from religion is that it changes over time. Unlike dogma, which stubbornly resists change centuries at a time, science is changing every day.

Tolerance? Sure. I feel like I shouldn't react in kind when I am attacked, but I still just can't sit idly by when someone else is acting superior. But until then, I will not initiate.