::Debating::

[Canas Renvall]

This is a subforum for people to bring their disagreements and discuss/debate them. Try to bring them here if they get too heated in the main forum.

Edit: Forgot to mention this! If you're bringing a debate to this subforum, go ahead and give it its own thread. Otherwise, things'll get really cluttered. Thanks!  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

MGS? Yeah, Snake wears a bandanna. Campell looks like Troutman. That's pretty much where the similarities end. Snake is nothing like Rambo, save for the fact that he has PTSD. And it's Kojima we're talking about here, dude.

Electric Torture scene in MGS1: Rambo 2
Sneaking around the jungle in MGS3: Rambo 2
Using the M63 machine gun and screaming in the process in the last 3 MGS games: All Rambos
Snake making fun of how if the knife handle was hollow the knife wouldn't be usable in MGS3: Reference to Rambo's knife
Self surgery in MGS3: Rambo 1 and 3
The iconic Hind helicopter in MG, MG2, MGS, MGS3: Rambo 2 and 3
There's a lot more. Rambo has had a major influence on the MGS series.

And yeah, I realize that it's a Kojima thing. My point is, like it or not, some of the coolest parts of MGS come from the Rambo movies.

Thee Stranger

That's the reason I consider II & III pieces of s**t next to First Blood. Because behind all the guns and explosions, First Blood actually had something to say. And Rambo was nothing like he was in II & III. He was just a guy who wanted to be left alone, forced to fight in his own homeland. II & III are entertaining for their high octane action, but they're pretty dumb flicks. To any and all spectators, here is Rambo II in a nutshell. Even though this is a parody, it's really not that much of an exaggeration of what actually takes place in the movie. Like Rocky, the Rambo sequels became like a parody of itself. Like a saturday morning cartoon show or something, stripping away any vulnerability or humanity the character once possessed. I really just can't take Rambo II & III seriously.

You're missing the point, though. Why was Rambo 1 so important for its time? Because it allowed all those traumatized and discarded Vietnam War vets to connect to this one character, and raised the awareness in a way. It gave them some kind of hope. Which is the point of movies, I think.

Rambo 2 and 3... Well, the situation is different, but they still both dealt with serious world issues. Imprisoned POWs in Vietnam in R2, and the Afghan war against Russia in R3. Both films dealt with current events of their time, raised awareness AND again... Gave people hope. And frankly, it's uplifting.

R4 was kinda different, in that it touched on a subject that not too many people are aware of, raising awareness in THAT way.

In all cases though, Rambo being the character that comes in and brings hope to whatever the situation is. Yeah, it's not so much about who the character is in R2 and 3, as it is about what he does. But what he does is awesome. You watch R2, R3, or even R4 and you go, "Man... It really sucks that Rambo isn't a real person. We really need someone like that in the world."
That's why I love the Rambo movies.

Thee Stranger

Okay. And iconic doesn't define whether it's good either. Either way, iconic and influential are two different things. Not one in the same as you were making it out to be before. But since you like the first RE movie, hey, you can thank Aliens for some of its now-cliche character types. Even though it was within the confines of a s**t script, embodied by poor actors. But let's not get into that again. So, Aliens is good. Obviously not sucky, like 50 Cent. Which was trendy for a short time. And if Aliens set a trend, it's a trend that's been going for 20+ years.

Yeah, I'm not saying that Aliens was bad. I'm just saying that Terminator 2 was better. See, that's the big thing that always leads to disagreements between us. You're all about "Who did it first." I'm about, "Who did it best."
Yeah, so Ripley might've been the first female action hero. But quite frankly, turning Sarah Connor into an action heroine in T2, made Sarah Connor far more badass than Ripley. The fact that she had to share the spotlight with Arnold isn't a bad thing. That's just two really badass good guys against one really awesome bad guy, who techincally was superior to both of them anyway.

Thee Stranger

Yeah. Rambo is a pop culture icon. I never argued this, so why do you keep pounding it in? And yeah, you're right, it's not about liking Rambo. What the ******** did this have to do with Rambo in the first place? I thought this was about liking T2. I thought this was about Cameron movies. I thought this was Aliens VS Terminator 2. How the ******** did this become about Rambo all of a sudden? Tell Rambo to get the ******** outta here. Tell him I'm sorry I don't give a s**t about II & III, but he can blow me.

Well, it was more of a comment on what Violetta said. Dude, you need to calm down and ease up on the potty mouth. Unless Rambo actually hurt you in some way. It's just the way the conversation steered.

Though, the screenplay for Rambo 2 WAS co-written by James Cameron... So TECHNICALLY it kinda sorta relates to the topic.

Thee Stranger

Actually, I'd really like to do Terminator VS Terminator 2. The real Terminator doesn't shoot people in the knee caps; he shoots 'em in the head. Man VS Machine, not Machine VS Machine. Get back to me if you want to do that one.

Look, the thing is yeah.. Terminator 1 and Terminator 2 are at their core two very, very different movies. Which I like, honestly, it's cool when a sequel follows a common formula of the first movie, but it's really nice to see a good sequel that doesn't just copy every event of the first movie but to the next extreme. And yeah, technically, Terminator 1 is a horror movie, and T2 is a pure action movie... But you're saying, "The real terminator this, and the real terminator that."
That's hard to say, because yeah, the Terminator is a machine made to kill, but he WAS programmed. And it's not like there's been a long history of this character, then suddenly they changed him. It's not like, there was T1, T2, T3, where the terminator played by Arnold was this evil robot trying to kill the poor helpless humans, and then suddenly in T4 they make him good and pit him against another more powerful cyborg. Terminator was only one movie, and because of that, Arnold being the bad guy wasn't really a status quo.
So it's not like Cameron had any expectations to fulfil. You'd need at least two movies to set a status quo. And certain ones have been set. Like one being that the majority of the people, if not all of them, are skeptics about the future war, and don't really know about the existence of the Terminator, until he comes in and kicks some a**. That's a status quo.
If they suddenly changed that and everyone's like, "Oh look, there's that one robot that's helping those other guys," then yeah, that's something to get pissed about.
Killing Sarah Connor off in T3 was a bit of a status quo violation. Sending robots back in bulk in the Sarah Connor Chronicles was a bit of a status quo violation. Ones I didn't really mind BECAUSE Terminator 1 and 2 didn't follow a status quo. Because there's always something different in Terminator. If Arnold stayed young forever, I wouldn't be surprised if they made another Terminator movie where he comes back AGAIN as a bad guy, for whatever reason.

Either way, I'm just saying, "They turned him into a bad guy and made it Machine vs. Machine" didn't really ruin the experience for me. Or most people.
But I'm not forcing you to like it, so, opinion's opinion.  

[Canas Renvall]

Just as a general rule, guys, I forgot to mention this... If you have a debate, go ahead and make its own thread. razz For future reference, of course.  

[King of Paradise]

The Cameron script for Rambo: First Blood Part 2 was not used. It's still credited in the movie, though...Just thought I'd add that.

I hate the frikkin' titleing of the movies. AVGN is right. How the hell do you go from Rambo: First Blood Part 2 to Rambo 3 and then just to Rambo?

And dood, Arnold may have still just been a machine, but he now knew why you cried. Epic. Lol.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

Points:

- Rambo wasn't the only movie to feature electric torture. I could just as easily say that's from Lethal Weapon.
Rambo wasn't the only movie to feature people sneaking around a jungle either. I could just as easily say Predator.
I'll give you that one.
Yeah. Reference.
Again, Rambo isn't the only movie to feature this. And that is simply a gameplay device. It's got nothing to do with Rambo.
Yeah, obvious Rambo influence.
I'd like to hear 'em. Because as far as I'm concerned, MGS has a few nods and visual references, but that's pretty much it.

Well, that's like saying, "Well, there are other movies out there that have characters with eye patches. So Big Boss' Eye Patch probably wasn't influenced by Escape from New York."
It's obvious dude. Yeah, you can pull all those influences from many other franchises, but the fact is, they're ALL present in Rambo films, and they're all peresnt in MGS. It's a little more than a coincidence. Especially since Kojima obviously loves making movie references and homages.
Look, you can deny it all you want, but it's quite obvious that Kojima loves Rambo films.

Thee Stranger

Yeah. The situations are a lot different. I'm not even gonna get into the whole stupidness of the plot, and how they contradict the original's message and turn Rambo into a super hero, but I will touch on Rambo III. I just want to thank you, Rambo, for liberating those Afghan 'freedom fighters' and giving them all those guns from America to help fight those damn Red commie bastards, so then we could leave them high and dry after we used them and piss them off, so they could one day blow up a bunch of our s**t and kill a bunch of our people, and now be called 'terrorists'. Thank you, Rambo. *claps and wipes tear from eye* Your story in Rambo III is true inspiration to us all. And not just a bunch of ********' Raegan-era Cold War propaganda.

Yeah, and I think R4 was the best since the original. Because the action isn't so ridiculous, and neither Rambo, nor any of the mercenaries are painted as heroes in this whole thing. It was an entertaining, ultraviolent action flick. And yes, it shed some light on Burma. Has it ended anything? No. Is it going to? No. It mearly exploited the situation for entertainment value and MONEY. Which I highly doubt much, if any of it, is going to Burma.

Yeah, and what does Rambo do in II & III? He commits mass genocide and blows a bunch of s**t up. What are people talking about when they leave a Rambo movie? "Man, did you see the way Rambo blew all that s**t up!? Did you see how he ripped that guy's esophagus out with his bear hands!?" Not once have I left a Rambo movie going, "Wow, that was uplifting. Man, that just gave hope for a better tomorrow". No, I just wanted to see Rambo ******** a bunch of s**t up and kill lots of people. That's why I watch Rambo II & III. Even in R4, you watch all these Burmese people being slaughtered and brutalized by the soldiers and it's so horrible, yet you route for Rambo to do the same things! I liked how one of the characters in the movie pointed out the irony of it all. And yes, we really need an indestructable mass murderer in the world, who will just solve all the world's problems by coming in and blowing a bunch of s**t up and killing everybody. Yeah, that's just what the world needs. No, sorry. Rambo is ultraviolent entertainment. That's it. Aside from the original, no deeper meaning there. Rambo is not high art. You're giving those movies WAAYYYY too much credit.

First of all, a movie doesn't have to be high art to be a great film.
Yeah, Rambo kills a whole shitload of people. But what happens BEFORE he kills them? They're portrayed as such assholes, that you can't help but feel so uplifted when you see those ******** die.
Yes, it's exploiting the violent nature in all of us, but ********... Why is that such a bad thing? Violence in movies is highly underrated.
I'm not saying Rambo is high art, but as far as action movies go, it's one of the most enjoyable franchises.

Thee Stranger

- If you read my posts, I said I think Aliens was better regardless of its impact. Regardless of the s**t it pioneered, and regardless of its influence. I never thought Ripley was more badass than Sarah Conner in T2. That has nothing to do with why I like Aliens better. I pointed out its influence, because Aliens has molded a lot of aspects of the action and science fiction genres as we know them today. I was just pointing out the things Aliens did that T2 did not, since I can't just say "it's better because I said so". Well, I did, but it was a joke.

Yeah, but in that case, forget the impact on the movie industry. I think Terminator 2 is a better movie than Aliens. Now, granted, they're both very different, and probably shouldn't be compared. But I'd rather watch T2 than Aliens. And even Aliens aside. T2 was a terriffic sequel, that, I think, surpassed the first one in its awesomeness.

Thee Stranger

- Well, ya shoulda quoted her then.

But I quoted you quoting her. I was just adding to what you were saying.

Thee Stranger

Well, I did not know that. And Rambo II was the worst of the trilogy.

I disagree.

Thee Stranger

I think of the opposite. And dude, he's called the Terminator not the Protectinator.

Okay, dude, if you wanna get all technical like that, I COULD say that, "The Terminator" title actually refers to Robert Patrick's character. Just like I could say that TECHNICALLY, Parasites are Biohazard, therefore RE4 is awesome... Which we both know, it's not.

Thee Stranger

I just like the Man VS Machine dynamic better. I liked Reese better than just a machine. They tried to humanize him, but he was still just a machine.

Yeah, maybe. But still, what are they gonna do? Just send arnold after the Connors again, and then have Sarah do the fighting against it on her own? Or bring in some other human commando played by Robert Patrick? It would just be rehashing the ideas from the first one. They needed to do something new, they did. And it worked great.

Thee Stranger

I liked the original's tone better.

I'll give you that one. The darker tone was definitely more up my alley.

Thee Stranger

And I liked Sarah Conner better in the original. She's not very likable in T2. I mean, I understand why she is the way she is, but still.

I loved GI Sarah. She was so much more awesome in the second one. Plus no poofy hair, that hair pissed me off in T1.

Thee Stranger

Didn't really care for John Conner much either. I liked the characters better in the first. Plus, Arnie was ******** class="clear">

[Biohazard EXTREME]

-Naked Camo, too. I thought that was a bit of a nod to Rambo. Either way, there are a lot of Rambo influences in MGS, and as far as I'm concerned, Solid Snake is pretty much a mix of Plissken and Rambo.

-Well, I'm pretty sure that back in the 1980s they didn't find them cheesy just because of the over the top action. Back then, it was spectacular. And you know, the cheesy plot and macho heroics are what gives those mid 80's, early 90's action movies their charm. I'd watch Commando over Riddick or Bourne or Body of Lies any day.

-Yeah, but the PS2 still looks good. It doesn't have to be the BEST, but it does have to look good. I mean, if you have a PS2 game that looks like.... Okay, prime example... GameCube... Eternal Darkness was one of the worst looking games of the previous generation I've seen. And yeah, I get it, it was originally suppsoed to be for the N64, that's justifiable. But it doesn't change the fact that it's kinda ugly to look at sometimes.
It's the same with movies. I'm not saying everything has to look an equal level of spectacular. But it has to look adequate and cut its own losses. For example, if Terminator 2 was made in the early 80's, before they had the special effect capabilities of 1990s... Imagine T-1000 being done in stop motion with like... Silver clay or something... It would've looked kind of ugly, I cannot imagine how they could've made it look good.
The stop motion Terminator in T1 is tolerable at best. If it wasn't for the story and the cast of T1, I probably wouldn't like it at all.

But when you're making an action movie, effects are not secondary, they play as important of a part as the story. And I don't mean CGI. Like you said, Aliens had great effects without the CGI. But they do have to be great. Even if it's something like The Rock, where there is no real sci-fi aspect. You have to make the explosions look good, you have to make the blood look real, and the cinematography be dynamic and effective.
The Rock told a good story with memorable characters, but without its spectacular presentation, it would've been a rental at best. With it, it's one of the best action movies ever made.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Oh god... I'm so not gonna respond to all of that...

Thee Stranger

- It could be. It could also be a reference to Predator. Or Commando. Or maybe, he just threw that in there without any reference to any particular movie. Yes, Rambo has obviously served for some aesthetic/visual reference in Metal Gear, but Solid Snake is really nothing like Rambo. s**t, I'm pretty sure Rambo doesn't even smoke.

Well, the smoking, I think, was an influence of Escape from NY. Plissken did like his cigerettes. But I find that there's a lot of subtle things about Snake, particularly in MGS1/3 that kind of resemble Rambo's personality. It's not anything concrete, but just the way he says things, the tonality. I dunno, maybe I just think that because I like Rambo 2 and 3, but you gotta admit, you'll avert from comparing Snake to Rambo because you DON'T like them.

Thee Stranger

So let's just say he's Kyle Reese, too. And Snake's physique for his character model in the original MGS was based on Jean Claude Van Damme, while his facial appearance was based Christopher Walken. So let's throw them into the mix, because a whole slew of s**t serves as reference or inspiration. Rambo is just one in the jumble, and is not responsible for every teeny tiny game mechanic in MGS. Half of what you list as Rambo influences are just arbitrary declarations.

Yes, yes, we all know that cover art. Snake is Kyle Reese/Christopher Walken, and Big Boss is Sean Connery.
Look, there's still a lot more Rambo influences. I mean, here are a couple more. The leeches in the swamp that latch onto you in MGS3. And frankly, I think the Naked Camo in itself is an homage to Rambo. As well as all the other things I mentioned. I firmly believe that, and if you disagree, then disagree. There's really no point in discussing it, unless you wanna give Kojima a call and ask him.

Thee Stranger

- I'd rather watch Aliens. An action movie. Made in the 80s. Very not cheesy. And very spectacular. I admit the big muscles, big guns 80s movies have their charm in their time and place. But there was plenty of s**t in the action genre going besides Rambo. And it wasn't all cheesy either.

Riiight. So you go watch Aliens... And Aliens... And Aliens... You know, if you admit that you can enjoy a cheesy action flick.. Then you might as well just categorize them completely separately. Yes, there's awesome serious action movies out there, and yes, Aliens is one of them. But sometimes I don't WANT a serious storyline. Sometimes all I want are some explosions and guns. And I don't wanna sit there worrying about the characters fates. I just wanna go, "Did you see that!? That was awesome!"
And other times, even when I do wanna see an action movie with a good storyline, if you put too much storyline pacing becomes an issue. The Dark Knight is a perfect example. There were parts when I went, "Would you stop ******** talking and have something interesting happen!?" Although to be honest, most of the action in DK wasn't that amazing either. But that's another discussion. Point is, some story driven action movies CAN get boring. The story has to be REALLY compelling, like Taken.

Thee Stranger

- Eternal Darkness was not ugly. It didn't have the most detailed graphics in the world, but it wasn't an eyesore You know what's ugly? Those infamous, prominent PS2 jaggies on a lot of the earlier releases, such as Ridge Racer, Virtua Fighter 4, and hell, even Final Fantasy X. To name a few. You know what else is ugly? Just about any PS1 game nowadays. Just sayin'.

Well, no, I wouldn't call any PS1 game ugly. It's all about perspective. I judge graphics based on that platform's full potential. Or at least full realized potential. And if you compare Eternal Darkness to the best looking... Or even the average looking GameCube game... It's way under par.

Thee Stranger

The T-1000 wouldn't have worked at all with stop motion or clay. It would have looked horrible. Like I said, I agree that the effects were very important in T2's case, especially given the dynamic nature of the T-1000. And yes, they were spectacular effects for the time that still hold up well, and truly add to the movie. And it was a really good movie. But again, despite its crude and far inferior effects, I still liked the original better. BECAUSE of the story, characters, etc. This is why effects are secondary. And keep in mind that T1 did not have anywhere near the budget T2 did.

Well, yeah. The lack of budget, and maybe even the lack of technological advancements JUSTIFY T1's lesser effects. But still, it doesn't help the fact that... Okay, here's the main issue I had with the stop motion Terminator... They had that, and then for the closeup shots, they had a rail puppet. And the rail puppet looked and animated pretty cool. But the fact that as soon as they zoom out to full height it goes into stop motion again put me off. And yes, I understand that they worked with what they had. But I simply don't like inconsistencies. And yes, when I was a little kid, I didn't notice it at all, cause I didn't know s**t about s**t. But even as a little kid, I prefered T2. The thing is... Maybe you're looking at it too much like a sequel. But even stand alone, it's one of the best action movies of all time. I can watch Terminator 2 and then The Matrix, and say, "Yeah, they're two action movies, so what? Oh, what? One was made ten years before the other one? No wonder he was wearing a Public Enemy T-Shirt."
You know what? I think that's what it is... I just think T2 withstood the test of time better than T1.

Thee Stranger

Well in the case of explosions, blood, and cinematography... yeah. You should make it look as good as it can. That's your craft, and you should have some skill at it. But that's a far different dynamic than creating something like a realistic-looking cyborg with moving robotic parts exposed beneath its damaged skin, or liquid metal T-1000's with a limited budget and limited technology. The original Dawn of the Dead didn't have particularly realistic-looking blood and guts, and who doesn't love that movie?

Well, if you want my complete honesty, I'll take the Dawn of the Dead remake over the original any day.
Not saying I didn't enjoy the original, I really did, but you're speaking to a general zombie enthusiast. Someone who doesn't really care about zombies will probably watch it and say, "It's stupid."
Hell, even my friend who's a Left 4 Dead addict, and read more zombie books than I have, would probably watch it and say, "What's with you and all these old movies? That sucked."
Of course, to which I'd say, screw him. But my point remains.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

- Well, no. Not really. I acknowledge the stuff that IS concrete. The stuff that is undoubtedly an obvious Rambo influence and really can't be denied. Like Campbell is undeniablely a Rambo influence. And I think that's really the biggest one, as even his relationship with Snake is quite reminiscent of Rambo and Trautman's. Though they aren't as close, Campbell is always pulling Snake "out of retirement" for a mission. The whole briefing in MGS1, "You will take these orders. I know it."
Yeah. Total Rambo s**t. But I can't attribute every little teeny tiny detail to Rambo. Oh my god, leeches in a swamp! Rambo reference! Um, no dude. Swamps have leeches in them. It's just a fact of life. Stand by Me had leeches in a swamp, too. So have plenty of other films, books, etc. Plenty of action/war movies feature a jungle setting. Rambo didn't pioneer this concept. Real wars have been fought by real soldiers in real jungles. A cave! Rambo went into a cave, too! Rambo reference! No. Geography. Rambo is NOT the sum of all of MGS's parts. Sorry.
And for the last time, I DON'T hate Rambo II & III. I just don't think they're that great.

Okay, you know what? When I first saw that cave in MGS3, my mind went straight to Rambo.
And either way dude, you can deny it all you want, but the fact is, if I wake up one day and say, "Man, I wanna play a game that perfectly captures the Rambo experience."
I'll put in MGS3, put on the Naked Camo, pull out the biggest automatic weapon I have on me at the time, and go apeshit on every soldier I see. And it will capture the Rambo Experience pretty accurately, apart from lacking a bow and arrow. And yes, the reason I started liking MGS in the first place, one of many, was those little Rambo references in MGS1, such as Campbell, the electric torture, the bandana, the Hind D. And no matter where each and every one of them came from, I was playing it, I saw Rambo. And it was damn cool.

Thee Stranger

- Well, I can't call him and ask him, but he did put out a list of the top 15 films that influenced Metal Gear, and guess what? Not one Rambo movie is on the list. Predator is on the list. Full Metal Jacket is on the list. The Bourne Identity is on the list. No Rambo. Furthermore, he credits Goldfinger as MGS's biggest influence. And goes on futher to say that Snake's headband is actually a homage to Robert DeNiro's character in The Deer Hunter, not Rambo. Source

Cool list. I didn't say that Rambo was MGS' biggest influence though. But I do think there's been a lot. And frankly, even though Kojima gave THAT as his list of top 15 movies... I mean, think of it this way... What's more of an homage? The way Campbell looks and his relationship to Snake being an homage to Rambo?
Or 2001 Space Oddyssey giving names to two characters in MGS, with no other ties whatsoever. Just two names.

Frankly, from the looks and sounds of it, it seems to me like that's a list of Kojima's 15 favorite movies that influenced MGS, and not necessarily 15 biggest influences on MGS. I mean, even Escape from New York isn't on that list. Despite Snake, despite handcuff briefcase, despite the eye patch, despite Plissken... All that, and still "Dave and Hal" "Let's go to Jupiter" is on the list?
See what I mean? So I believe that that list is actually Kojima's favorite movies that had an influence on MGS. In other words, maybe he didn't enjoy Excape from New York as much as those, but still said, "Okay, those particular aspects were cool, I'll use them in my game."
It could've been the same case with Rambo. And I'm not saying that Kojiima is a Rambo fanboy. But maybe he watched them and said, "Okay those particular aspects are cool..." and so on. Even if the Bandana wasn't one of them.

Thee Stranger

- Ummm... well, what you said was that Rambo movies weren't considered cheesy in the 80s, because of the time period. All I was saying is that not every action flick that came out of the 80s was cheesy Rambo-style. And many considered Rambo II & III cheesy, even in the 80s. Just read some reviews.

Well, fact is, Rambo II was the biggest selling Rambo movie out of all of them. So despite whether they considered it cheesy at the time or not, people obviously went to see it and thoroughly enjoyed the guns and explosions. And frankly, even if you think things like shooting Rambo and hitting nothing but the ground. Or Rambo by himself stopping whole armies, are cheesy things. Rambo as a character, his personality, it was never cheesy. The cheesiest thing Rambo ever said was "Your worst nightmare" in R3. That's it. Nothing else. Apart from those 3 words, (which, if you put them into context, watching the actual movie, if I was that soldier, I would've s**t my pants when I heard that), Rambo was portrayed as well in 2 and 3 as he was in 1 and 4. He was still a jaded war veteran. And I mean, look at how much people love Die Hard, (I do too, don't get me wrong), and John McClane is a living one liner dispenser. So what's the big deal? McClane has one liners.

Thee Stranger

- And I think SNES graphics have stood the test of time much better than the original Playstation's graphics, which are ugly as hell nowadays. They looked good for the time, but aside from the blocky character models and such, all the graphical clipping, texture popping, etc. is pretty inconsistent. But they're still good games, and I acknowledge the hardware they were working with, and can look past the graphical flaws in favor of their gameplay, story, etc. And the same logic can be applied to T1 VS T2.

Dude, movies and games are different though. The biggest drastic changes in cinematography came from new formats, VHS, DVD, Blu-Ray. I mean, even back in the day, in the 1950's, if you watch a movie, it's not like you can say, "This movie is ugly, because those people don't actually look like real people." Because they WERE real people, obviously. Whereas in games, you can play Pitfall and say, "That obviously doesn't look like a real person, or even a cartoon person, that looks like a stickman." But if you put it into context, how much is Atari capable of? Then Pitfall actually looks pretty cool.
And with games, there is that gameplay aspect. And THAT'S the factor in games that withstands the test of time. That's why Mario on NES is still fun.

In movies, it's things like clothing, music and special effects that often lodge a movie into a certain time period. And Terminator 1 had all 3 of those aspects.
Look at Gremlins for example. Gremlins is set in a small town, its music is mostly Christmas music or Jerry Goldsmith score, its effects are animatronics, there's nothing very specific about Gremlins that places it in the 1980s. It could be happening right now. In a small town where they're a little old fashioned and don't all have cellphones on them. You know? I mean, obviously if you LOOK for the 80's references, you could find them. But still, watching the Gremlins, I don't go, "Yep, I'm watching a movie that happened a long time ago," when I'm immersed in it, it's happening right now.
With the Terminator, I'm watching it and it's like, "I'm watching a movie that happened just before I saw born. I remember these hairstyles and music fading away when I was very little."

Same with Terminator 2, there's nothing about it that makes it feel like an early 90's movie. Heck, even John's T-Shirt... I still see a lot of people today wearing NWA T-Shirts, and stuff like that, so Public Enemy on a kid is no big deal. And with the arcade era dying, the odd bowling alley or whatever that still has arcade games in it, usually has a bunch of old school games, so even that Galleria place being filled with old school games, doesn't really place it in the early 90's that much. The only outdated thing about Terminator 2 is that red mullet that was attached to John's friend.
Either way, look, it's like this... If you put Terminator 2 into a movie theater right now, and people didn't know what it was, they'd see it, and they'd enjoy everything about it, including special effects. I can't say the same about Terminator 1. That's what I mean about the test of time, with movies. Jurassic Park withstood the test of time, big time. You know what, I think I'm gonna make a list one of these days...

But regardless, the test of time is different for games than it is for movies. And yes, as much as I think graphics in a game are important, the gameplay is that one deciding factor. I could play Uncharted with stick figures and blocks, and I'd still enjoy the gameplay.

Thee Stranger

- Blaspheme. And someone who doesn't care about zombies will probably think the remake is equally stupid. Same basic concept.

Yeah, and you know what? As much as I hate to say it, the traditional Resident Evil controls did not withstand the test of time. Not with the general public. And yeah, I love them to death, and would have no other way, but I'm not in denial about myself being a purist with it comes to Resident Evil. And frankly, in many cases, random battles in RPGs did not withstand the test of time either. You still see them occasionally, but even those RPGs that say, "Yeah, we still got turn based gameplay and a world map" usually go by the Chrono Trigger system, where the enemy is already on screen, you walk up to them and that initiates a battle.
So yeah, there are some of my favorite gameplay aspects that unfortunately faded away. Meanwhile, Mario is still selling 10s of millions of copies by running and jumping around on a 2D plane.
And to be honest with you, I think it's ******** ridiculous. But it is what it is, I gotta live with it.

And dude, like I said, it's not to say I didn't like Terminator 1. If you rank all the terminator movies based on the importance of the storyline, yeah, T1 would be at the top of the list.
But T2 was just a better overall experience, for me.

And you know what else it could be with me? I always had a thing for having a previous bad guy turn good, just to even the odds a LITTLE bit, you know?
Like, when Piccolo turned good, or when Vegeta turned against Frieza in DBZ. Or you know, that odd movie, when that contagonist says, "Screw this bad guy. I've taken enough of his bullshit," and turns against the big bad guy, only to get killed in the end.
And yes, I even got excited when Nemesis turned good in Apocalypse, so crucify me.

So it's just the same with Terminator 2. And you know what? You can make fun of that, "A machine learned value of human life, maybe we could too." But you know what? That's a beautiful monologue that Sarah gave at the end. It really is.