This is ridiculous

[rosadria]

So, I was reading the news articles on christianpost.com
They're not always the best, but they do have articles relevant to Christians. What's going on in different denominations, etc. Stuff you'd never be aware of if you weren't in that church or into that kinda stuff. Here's one quote that I wanted to discuss.

Quote:

John Sloop of Shenandoah Presbytery interestingly argued that the church is being left behind if it does not accept the homosexual lifestyle that the world has already accepted.

Presbyterians Opposed to Suspending Gay Clergy Debate

I'm just.. Shocked. Disappointed, mostly. I want to laugh, but not the "ha ha it's funny laugh" but the "Oh God... This is bad" laugh.

Romans 12:2 - And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

I wasn't aware, Mr. Sloop, that the church's goal was to be worldly. I didn't think that it mattered what the world thought of us. You see, Sloop, things of the world aren't supposed to come into the church and change what we teach. These worldly things don't change the word of God!

I find this statement to be far too indicative of the attitude that has taken hold of many church leaders.

"If we teach this, church attendance will be down!"

- Let it drop. Speaking the Truth to one soul is worth more than lying to all the pews in America.

"If I teach this, the people who donate to the church will leave!"

- Be poor. The Church started with nothing but Christ, and when all is said and done, we're going to end with nothing but Christ.

"If I teach this, the world will hate me."

-If the world loves what you're teaching, be afraid for your soul. Be afraid like you've never been afraid for. Christ said that for His sake, we would be hated.

"I might get killed for teaching this!"
- THEN DIE!





I apologize if I seem angry, because I am. The world does not dictate what the church does. We have only one Lord, one God, one King, the Lord Jesus Christ. What He says goes. Period. Governments do not dictate what we believe or how we worship. We do not get to vote on church policies, or what churches teach. That is left to Christ alone, and He is not a God of confusion.

So, Mr. Sloop, one final word.
 

[Lucky-Emi]

It sounds like the people who run this church focus on publicity and totally forget about the reason we have church. That irritates me.  

[-xAngel of Redemptionx-]

This church probably IS more focused on publicity

We're not going to get left behind, these people are....It's sad.

May the Lord show him the right path.

@VK, good call on the poster  

[Scarlet_Teardrops]

Hmm...

I don't have too much to say on this, really.

I think it's fairly obvious what can be said.

God bless.
 

[rosadria]

One thing that makes it a little worse is that if they preached the Bible and nothing but the Bible, then they'd get even more publicity than they are right now. The media would be all over them, broadcasting our message free of charge.  

[Grace from God]

Hmm... me thinks they should spend more time reading and understanding God's Word than spending time promoting their church. neutral It's sad...  

[Sapphirianna]

It's simple:

God calls us. He is not worldly.

We are in this world, not of it. We are wherever God is.

Actually, dieing puts our soul with Christ.

BTW, poster = win ^.^  

[R0bot0]

Publicity and fame must be his concerns. He's not with God if he thinks that way. I mean I don't approve of gay activity, but I still love everyone as God commanded me to do. Doesn't mean I must accept them but to help them. I hope he sees the right way through Christ.  

[Kyo the III]

i don't see how the people who had to study the bible to become preachers are some of the most confused people. It seems to me some of us in the guild are smarter then some Preachers.  

[Fighting Fefnir]

What part of the Bible condemns homosexuality? Leviticus. What did Jesus say about Leviticus?

"I came to fulfill the law".

It no longer applies.  

[Scarlet_Teardrops]

Fighting Fefnir

What part of the Bible condemns homosexuality? Leviticus. What did Jesus say about Leviticus?

"I came to fulfill the law".

It no longer applies.

My dear Fefnir, it isn't just the Old Testament.

There are passages in the New Testament that prohibit homosexual relations as well.

I've listed them dozens of times in this sort of argument. If you require them, I'm willing to provide you with them.
 

[Scarlet_Teardrops]

Here, for the sake of time. This is something I posted quite a while ago.

Scarlet_Teardrops

Jesus states:

Matthew 19:4

"They record that from the beginning God made them male and female." (NLT)

In Genesis, God did not give Adam a male companion. He gave Adam a female companion. Right from the start God is showing that men are to be with women.

Romans 2:26-27


"Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal, sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved." (NLT)


Same gender sexual relations is a sin. Paul states that these homosexual relations are a sin. This is not talking about prostitution. It is talking about sexual relations with the same gender and saying that it is a sin.

You are only taking a piece of this Scriptures: 1 Corinthians 6:9

"Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality..." (NLT)

Not only is prostitution wrong, but sexual relations with people of the same gender is also wrong.

1 Timothy 1:10

"The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching that comes from the gloroius Good News..." (NLT)

When Paul speaks of the law, He's referring to the Old Covenant laws, the laws of Moses. God made those laws because He knew the hearts of the Jewish people.

It states in this passage as well that sexual relations with people of the same gender is a sin.

Genesis 19:5-8

"The shouted to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!'

So Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. 'Please my brothers,' he begged, 'don't do such a wicked thing. Look, I have two virgin daughters. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them as you wish.'" (NLT)

This is taking place in Sodom, which was about to be destroyed because of the sins there. And, as Lot states, having sex with people of the same gender is a wicked thing.

 

[Fighting Fefnir]

Scarlet_Teardrops

Here, for the sake of time. This is something I posted quite a while ago.

Jesus states:

Matthew 19:4

"They record that from the beginning God made them male and female." (NLT)

In Genesis, God did not give Adam a male companion. He gave Adam a female companion. Right from the start God is showing that men are to be with women.

Quote mine. This verse is in reference to divorce.

Quote:

Romans 2:26-27

"Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal, sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved." (NLT)

Same gender sexual relations is a sin. Paul states that these homosexual relations are a sin. This is not talking about prostitution. It is talking about sexual relations with the same gender and saying that it is a sin.

Call me crazy, but I'm reading that verse in my Bible, and it's saying stuff about circumcision. I think you have the wrong scripture here.

Quote:

You are only taking a piece of this Scriptures: 1 Corinthians 6:9

"Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality..." (NLT)

Not only is prostitution wrong, but sexual relations with people of the same gender is also wrong.

Your translation is in error. Paul says "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

That doesn't say homosexuals, it says 'effeminate'. The New Living Translation is a sectarian translation that reads into pre-established teachings rather than Biblical fact to determine the wording. I suggest you pick up an NIV or a King James Version.

Quote:

1 Timothy 1:10

"The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching that comes from the gloroius Good News..." (NLT)

When Paul speaks of the law, He's referring to the Old Covenant laws, the laws of Moses. God made those laws because He knew the hearts of the Jewish people.

It states in this passage as well that sexual relations with people of the same gender is a sin.

New Living Translation again. Maybe you should get a Bible that tells you what was said, not what they wanted it to say?

1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

'Them that defile themselves with mankind' could just as easily refer to adulterers and fornicators.

Not to mention Jesus fulfilled the law to which Paul alludes, meaning that it no longer applies.

Quote:

Genesis 19:5-8

"The shouted to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!'

So Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. 'Please my brothers,' he begged, 'don't do such a wicked thing. Look, I have two virgin daughters. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them as you wish.'" (NLT)

This is taking place in Sodom, which was about to be destroyed because of the sins there. And, as Lot states, having sex with people of the same gender is a wicked thing.

You're trying to tell me it's in the New Testament by quoting the OT? Good going. Besides, the story of Lot condemns sodomy, or gay sex, not homosexual persons. So long as no sexual act is done, there is no sin involved.

Also gonna point out, Lot offered his daughters to a sex crazed mob to be raped, and it called a 'good man'. Double standard? Just a bit.  

[Scarlet_Teardrops]

Great. Here we go.

If you must know, I have five different translations. I use the NLT when posting because it puts the messages in layman's terms. Have you asked the average person what the word lasciviousness means? They probably don't know what it means. And that's the King James Version. It's in Old English, and there are many things that people don't understand in the King James Version.

The New International Version is an all right version. King James and NASB are the best, as they are the closest to the original texts. But as I said, most people don't know Old English like the back of their hand.

The verse is in reference to divorce. Yes. I went on after that post I made to explain how God made them, male and female. He gave Adam a woman, not a man, to be his companion. That's how God intended it to be.

And you are right about the Romans passage. That was a typo that I later admitted to in the post. You need to understand that this is a post I did a long time ago, and that there were future posts explaining my case. This post doesn't stand alone.

It's Romans 1:26-27.

And it says this in the King James Version:

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

There you go. In your preferred translation. It is in Romans.

Fornication means to have sex with prostitutes. You're correct. However, you do not understand what is being said in the King James Version.

But look, in the NIV, your other suggested version:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Homosexual offenders. There it is, my brother.

nor abusers of themselves with mankind

That's what it says in the King James version.

Abusers of themselves with mankind.

The NASB also takes directly from the Greek, like KJV.

9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

For the Timothy passage.

for them that defile themselves with mankind

Again, mankind.

And no, this post was not JUST to show you the passages in the New Testament. I said "this is something I posted quite a while ago".

For the sake of time. The post had New Testament Scriptures in it, so I just decided to use that post.

And "good going"? There's no need to be snide.

I never said that being homosexual was a sin. I said "that prohibit homosexual relations". Homosexual relations are a sin. I believe that people are born homosexual, because from scientific studies it is evident. But a person can be homosexual and not have homosexual relations. Therefore, that person is not sinning.

Consider that, by offering his daughters, Lot would cause the homosexual men to become disinterested and simply leave? Also consider that perhaps he had something else in mind and was not actually going to let his daughters be raped. We don't know that, because it didn't happen.

If you do not like these things I have presented, fine. Ultimately it is your choice on whether you will believe or not. God made it that way. But I will stand by what the Scriptures say. And in Romans, in your preferred version, the KJV (which is a very good version), which you so adamantly stand by it says that homosexual relations are wrong, in Romans. It also states it in other places, and I have detailed that.

God bless.
 

[Fighting Fefnir]

Scarlet_Teardrops

Great. Here we go.

If you must know, I have five different translations. I use the NLT when posting because it puts the messages in layman's terms. Have you asked the average person what the word lasciviousness means? They probably don't know what it means. And that's the King James Version. It's in Old English, and there are many things that people don't understand in the King James Version.

The New International Version is an all right version. King James and NASB are the best, as they are the closest to the original texts. But as I said, most people don't know Old English like the back of their hand.

The verse is in reference to divorce. Yes. I went on after that post I made to explain how God made them, male and female. He gave Adam a woman, not a man, to be his companion. That's how God intended it to be.

...You just prettied up the phrase 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' and presented it as an argument. Really? That's the best you have? You've taken something out of context, and you acknowledge this, but you still act as if it applies to something it doesn't.

Quote:

And you are right about the Romans passage. That was a typo that I later admitted to in the post. You need to understand that this is a post I did a long time ago, and that there were future posts explaining my case. This post doesn't stand alone.

It's Romans 1:26-27.

And it says this in the King James Version:

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

There you go. In your preferred translation. It is in Romans.

I'm seeing 'gay sex is a sin' not 'being gay is a sin'.

Quote:

Fornication means to have sex with prostitutes. You're correct. However, you do not understand what is being said in the King James Version.

But look, in the NIV, your other suggested version:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Homosexual offenders. There it is, my brother.

Gay sex. Again. Not being gay.

Quote:

nor abusers of themselves with mankind

That's what it says in the King James version.

Abusers of themselves with mankind.

Neglecting that the 'abuser' is not given a gender, it's still a gay sex thing, not a being gay thing.

Quote:

The NASB also takes directly from the Greek, like KJV.

9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

lol @ NASB. The Catholic Church specifically sat down at Nicea to decide what to include in the Bible that AGREED WITH THE THINGS THEY WERE TEACHING ALREADY. There is also a great deal of evidence that they tampered with the verses to make them 'fit' the tradition they were already observing.

Quote:

For the Timothy passage.

for them that defile themselves with mankind

Again, mankind.

And again, 'them' isn't defined.

Quote:

And no, this post was not JUST to show you the passages in the New Testament. I said "this is something I posted quite a while ago".

For the sake of time. The post had New Testament Scriptures in it, so I just decided to use that post.

And "good going"? There's no need to be snide.

I never said that being homosexual was a sin. I said "that prohibit homosexual relations". Homosexual relations are a sin. I believe that people are born homosexual, because from scientific studies it is evident. But a person can be homosexual and not have homosexual relations. Therefore, that person is not sinning.

Then what the hell are we arguing? You agreed with the OP who specifically condemned ALL homosexual people, and I specifically argued against that, not that the act was alright.

Quote:

Consider that, by offering his daughters, Lot would cause the homosexual men to become disinterested and simply leave? Also consider that perhaps he had something else in mind and was not actually going to let his daughters be raped. We don't know that, because it didn't happen.

...HE HAD SEX WITH HIS DAUGHTERS WHILE DRUNK AFTER THAT.

Good parenting + Lot = NO.

Quote:

If you do not like these things I have presented, fine. Ultimately it is your choice on whether you will believe or not. God made it that way. But I will stand by what the Scriptures say. And in Romans, in your preferred version, the KJV (which is a very good version), which you so adamantly stand by it says that homosexual relations are wrong, in Romans. It also states it in other places, and I have detailed that.

God bless.

So you say it's bad just because the Bible says so. People a couple of thousand years ago are the ones who are going to dictate present day conduct. Ignoring the fact that you had a small populace and the rule was certainly designed so that the Jews wouldn't die out, what in the hell is bad about gay sex?