Compare IPs - anti-mule device

[Purple-eyed Dreamer]

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Hello,

due to recent problems I've had in my guild, the crew has come to an idea how to fight multiply accounts spamming our guild. The thing is, we organise a lot of contests and these are our users who vote for the winner. Most of our users are into the fair play rule. Yet there are some exceptions who have created accounts just to vote for themselves. One girl has broken the record of the number of mules, creating 13 of them. We have enough D:

So here's the deal: at first we wanted to be allowed to look at users' IP adresses so that we could know which accounts are mules. However, it's probably impossible as the IP is a part of protected personal data. We have, therefore, another idea: comparison of IPs for the guild crew.

That's how it would work: a crew member enters usernames of people that seem suspicious to them. The device compares their IPs without showing them to the crew member and only states whether they are the same or different.

What do you think of this idea? Would it be useful to you?

Ona za mną, przede mną i przy mnie...|

 

[Pilotslover]

I worry about the ethical implications of this but I do like the idea for a guild such as yours (It's less relevant for the guilds I run), might be worth asking Pan or another dev the validity of the option.  

[Purple-eyed Dreamer]

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What do you mean by ethical implications?

Ona za mną, przede mną i przy mnie...|

 

[Pilotslover]

Because I see it as one step short of spying if you will.

Especially since the creation of mule accounts isn't against Gaia's TOS.  

[Myra Sao]

If you have the connections you ca do this already. And it is not a sure way to determine anything. If 8 people hop onto a wifi network they share that IP address. Personal data is already being compromised. I speak from experience.  

[pheonix20222]

You can find out alot from a persons' ip, namely, his/her location (that's the whole point of it).

But aside from that, I would just like the means to investigate the people who want to join in more available... Mules typically either aren't that active in the forums, or topped up with spam in the post history. And the type of mules you're talking about sound like they don't even have a old account age.

I would like the option to view a persons' post history, account age, and other guilds' list available next to the username, or 'accept or deny' button in the 'view current join requests' panel.

Post history - one of the best ways to spot a mule or troll. Sometimes the persons' profile is set to private though, or for some reason we can't select the "view post history" button. I know we can always copy and paste the user's id but convenience would be nice.

Account age - Maybe not the best way of spotting mules, but can be helpful. If a gaian with an account age of the same day that they sent in a join request (or close to it), it may be a mule indicator.

Other guilds - Sometimes the amount of posts contradict the post history because it does not show posts in guilds. When I first got on Gaia, I only ever had posts in guilds. Having this option readily available would be nice for those without visible post histories. Just to be able to verify that the person is in an actual (not one completely empty) guild so that their posting history number may be legitemate.

These three options are already features that anyone can look up on any user, so it's not more intruding then Gaia already is wink . I just think it should be more readily accessible to crew who want to ensure that the Gaian entering the guild are legit members who will most likely be active and is not just a mule.  

[Purple-eyed Dreamer]

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I see your point yet I'd like to emphasise the fact that the IP would be INVISIBLE for a crew member as I've written before. This way, I wouldn't access any personal data, everything would remain protected.

I imagine this as two fields to type in two different usernames and a button to click when it's done. Then I only receive an information like 'matches' or 'different', no address is shown to me.

I totally agree with what Pheaonix has said about those three means to check user's qualifies and they work for older users. unfortunately, all of them discriminate users who have created their accounts only recently as they couldn't have posted much. But it doesn't mean they are mules, obvioulsy.

This is a truly important matter for me since I've already denied access to my guild to many quite new accounts and I'm not sure how many of them were mules. I'm looking for a solution that would make me sure I can trust a new member in this matter. I wouldn't like to treat innocent people unfairly.

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[Myra Sao]

Purple-eyed Dreamer

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I see your point yet I'd like to emphasise the fact that the IP would be INVISIBLE for a crew member as I've written before. This way, I wouldn't access any personal data, everything would remain protected.

I imagine this as two fields to type in two different usernames and a button to click when it's done. Then I only receive an information like 'matches' or 'different', no address is shown to me.

I totally agree with what Pheaonix has said about those three means to check user's qualifies and they work for older users. unfortunately, all of them discriminate users who have created their accounts only recently as they couldn't have posted much. But it doesn't mean they are mules, obvioulsy.

This is a truly important matter for me since I've already denied access to my guild to many quite new accounts and I'm not sure how many of them were mules. I'm looking for a solution that would make me sure I can trust a new member in this matter. I wouldn't like to treat innocent people unfairly.

Dolores senem comi ingenio|

I was an innocent person and I have heard about some individuals that were new and innocent yet blamed because information was given to other guild members(info that is not supposed to be leaked to regular members) by gaian moderators.  

[Ebania]

Myra Sao

I was an innocent person and I have heard about some individuals that were new and innocent yet blamed because information was given to other guild members(info that is not supposed to be leaked to regular members) by gaian moderators.

Sorry to butt into this convo, but if what you're saying is true, then those moderators should be reported to their superiors. They shouldn't release anyone's personal information to a third party.  

[mamarita]

I am totally opposed to this option. The reason being, I like many of my friends, have several family members that are on Gaia. We all share the same IP address. Also, it borders on several legal matters.

We cannot go around snooping at everyone's IP address, try to determine personal information that is highly guarded by Gaia's administrators- who do have access to this information in the event of hacking,

I for one would be really pissed if I found out that someone was checking my IP and gathering information about me, my family, my personal space, etc.

As I said, using IP addresses to get information on someone is what the federal government has been sanctioned for. If the feds can't indiscriminately pry into a person's IP, then we sure as heck can't either- homeland security can't even do that to just anyone.

I used to be a deputy sheriff that used computers to catch the bad guys. We were not allowed to delve into people's info like IP's, other than tract where a crime was being committed. Court orders and subpeonas are necessary for law enforcement, and I doubt anyone on Gaia, except the managing administrators, can get the info, And we sure can't get court orders to get that information.

It's one thing for the administrators to use listed IP's for hackers, which is a criminal offense, but for us to have access to that information just to see if someone is using mules is WRONG!

As was stated above, mule accounts are not against TOS.

If you want to personally contact anyone you suspect is using a mule in your guild, that's fine. But let's not go where we have no business going.
OK?  

[gearfreak]

It makes me laugh how many people have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. Unless your IP is specifically registered to you (Unless you pay extra for it I can almost guarantee you it's not) the only information that can be obtained from an IP is the approximate location. Obtaining information about a user is not the point of an IP as somebody tried to suggest, the point of an IP is to get information from one computer to another. IP addresses are owned by the service provider, and are revealed to every website you visit, every ad on that website, often times every user in an online game you're playing with, etc. etc. It is not considered private data, although most websites choose to treat them as such because they can theoretically be used to hack someone, but only if they don't have a router, or are otherwise being stupid. IP addresses are not legally considered to be personally identifiable in the united states, it's only a courtesy thing to not expose them, and "unwritten rule" if you will that only people in trusted positions can see them. Moderators in most forum softwares can see them. You could certainly make the argument that crew, or at the very least the owners of a guild, should be able to see an IP (Or at least part of it? The last 2 octets?). However, one could also make the argument that the only thing needed is the ability to compare 2 IP addresses. IP address comparisons are also incredibly easy to get around by anybody who knows a tiny bit about the internet. From proxies to IP spoofing, IPs are hardly solid evidence.

In short... Do some basic googling before going "OMG IP ADDRESS OMG!". It is not some all-powerful personal identifier for either side of the argument.  

[Purple-eyed Dreamer]

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I have an unpleasant feeling that some people here don't read what I have written. As I have stated before, I would NOT see the IP address, I don't care how it looks like, all I want to see is simple MATCHES or DIFFERENT. That's it.

Stop crying about your personal data being revealed because there would be absolutely no access to them. The IP address only gives information about the location. And only when you know how to read it. To be honest, I have no idea, I'm not going into details here, I just want to know if two IPs are the same or different. No data of the actual location because I don't care where the mule is, I just want to know if it actually is a mule.

What's extremely amusing for me is the fact that the profiles are full of personal information - from a simple thing like the real name to the date of birth or address. So many Gaians have published their photos! But when it comes to a proposal of a simple device that would NOT let me see the IPs - it is considered an attempt to get access to personal information. I don't need the IP address for that, just take a look at the profile sometimes....

However, good point that there are some households with several Gaians in it. Since they most probably share the IP, they would be considered mules according to the device. Still, there is no point in comparing absolutely all IPs - my guild is small, there are around 400 users in it, I have better things to do than sitting and checking every single combination. I would just like to have a tool that would help me solve the problem if it arises.

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[mamarita]

Sorry to tell you but IP addresses pinpoint specific addresses, exact locations of where the computers are located. I know, Iaw enforcement does it all the time..  

[Purple-eyed Dreamer]

mamarita

Sorry to tell you but IP addresses pinpoint specific addresses, exact locations of where the computers are located. I know, Iaw enforcement does it all the time..

Regina tremende majestatis|
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Of course they do. I've already written that in the previous post:
"The IP address only gives information about the location."

Still, the only way to get to know the location is to decode the numbers the address consists of. Not only do you need to know how to do it, but also see the IP address. And I will write it once again, so that it is visible for everyone:

The IP address would NOT be visible in the device I propose

Visible enough now, I hope.

Dolores senem comi ingenio|

 

[God-the-almighty]

What if the IP is for a library or school or someone's home with multiple siblings with accounts? Then you still have dial-up that provides a new IP for every session.