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 Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:15 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:26 am
Resources: Church of Jesus Christ Will Not Go Through the TribulationAnnihilationism; False Bible teaching/doctrines of men.demonVerses about Hell indicating it is very much a physical place: Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ If it is not a physical place why does the rich man ask for water to cool his tongue? Why is he in anguish because of the flame? Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” If it is not a physical place why are those that worshiped the beast in torment, having no rest day or night in the fire?
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:11 am
edited Because of unsound definitions of "rapture" and "hell", this is not surprising. To be fair, the definition given in the article for the rapture may not be the definition of the "rapture" he was addressing (because most think we stay in the skies / heavens once we're raptured). Yes, we do meet the lord in the air, but let's not forget Jesus is reigning on earth for the 1,000 year reign. The Kingdom of Heaven (a.k.a. from Heaven) will be on earth.
About the following: Garland-Green Resources: Church of Jesus Christ Will Not Go Through the TribulationAnnihilationism; False Bible teaching/doctrines of men.demonVerses about Hell indicating it is very much a physical place: Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ If it is not a physical place why does the rich man ask for water to cool his tongue? Why is he in anguish because of the flame? Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” If it is not a physical place why are those that worshiped the beast in torment, having no rest day or night in the fire?
1) the "hell" mentioned in Luke 16 is actually "Hades" (it's where angels take us once we depart from the body; this is the realm of the dead, not the same place of Rev 14:11).
Luke 16:23-24 (NIV)
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
2) What Revelation 14:11 is referring to is the lake of fire. The lake of fire / gehenna is where people get cast in alive (or resurrected from the dead first and then cast in alive), whereas Hades (where the rich man is at) is where we go to upon death, and Hades itself even gets thrown into the lake of fire at end times. Ergo, they're not the same place (one you go to upon death [Hades], the other you go in alive or upon resurrection/raised from the dead [Gehenna/ Lake of Fire] at end times). Unfortunately, both places (Hades & Gehenna) get translated as hell in the KJV. Other versions leave Hades untranslated so we pick up on the difference.
Revelation 19:20 (NIV)
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:13-15 (NIV)
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
So, clearly, no one stays in Hades forever.
Adding to the problem is how people think the flames of Luke 16:24 (that the rich man is in) is the same as the fire of the lake of fire, but it's not. The rich man is suffering the heat that he never alleviated Lazarus from (Lazarus, who was naked, laying outside the rich man's gates, in the blazing sun, no water, no crumb of food / no table scraps given him, no rags of clothing [the rich man could clearly spare a coat—but he didn't], no alleviation; ergo, Lazarus does not come to alleviate the rich man of his agony in death. It's just a taste of his own medicine. It's not the lake of fire).
Even if Carson wanted to go with annihilation: it IS a physical place, lol, since, according to that interpretation, it's on earth that people are getting burned.
I think where he's taking "inspiration" from, with that definition of "hell" (when he says it is the perfect place / perfect conditions on earth and it being hell for the wicked) is the following in the Book of Isaiah:
Isaiah 33:14-15 (NIV)
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
“Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?”
15 Those who walk righteously
and speak what is right,
who reject gain from extortion
and keep their hands from accepting bribes,
who stop their ears against plots of murder
and shut their eyes against contemplating evil—
But there is a fire, mentioned in Isaiah, that Isaiah says will not be quenched:
Isaiah 66:22-24 (NIV)
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
So... Carson is confused on a lot but I wouldn't say on everything. It is a physical place.
This is the same place that Jesus is referring to in the gospel of Mark:
Mark 9:47-49 (NIV)
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[a]
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
Footnotes:
a. Mark 9:48 Isaiah 66:24
Everyone will be salted with fire. Sounds like Isaiah alright.
And the hell mentioned here is "gehenna" / Lake of Fire (not Hades).
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/9-47.htm
Also, I'm not sure if they're so wrong on this point. Is the fire that never extinguishes the same fire and brimstone as Sodom and Gomorrah? because in that case they would be correct. To what extent is Sodom and Gomorrah an example?
Jude 1:7 (NIV)
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Genesis 19:24-25 (NIV)
24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.
Other mentions of "fire" and "burning sulfur" in the book of Isaiah:
Isaiah 30:33 (NIV)
33 Topheth has long been prepared;
it has been made ready for the king.
Its fire pit has been made deep and wide,
with an abundance of fire and wood;
the breath of the Lord,
like a stream of burning sulfur,
sets it ablaze.
Isaiah 34:9 (NIV)
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
In the rest of the Old Testament:
Deuteronomy 29:23 (NIV)
23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger.
Ezekiel 38:22 (NIV)
22 I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.
For comparison, the New Testament references to this sulfur:
Revelation 21:8 (NIV)
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 20:10 (NIV)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 19:20 (NIV)
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 14:10 (NIV)
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Luke 17:29 (NIV)
29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
Is this a case of the Old Testament instances (where God rained down fire and brimstone) serving as a shadow of something greater...? or is it the same reality? That's the problem. Sigh. People look at Sodom and Gomorrah and say: the fire isn't burning today—granted, it may have burned for a while considering that there were tar pits in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Genesis 14:10 (NIV)
10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men fell into them and the rest fled to the hills.
So no one gets confused: Genesis 14 is before God rained down fire and brimstone, when the kings of the area were fighting each other.Wikipedia A tar pit, or more accurately known as an asphalt pit or asphalt lake, is a type of petroleum seep where subterranean bitumen leaks to the surface, creating a large area of natural asphalt.[1] This happens because, after the material reaches the surface, its lighter components vaporize, leaving only the thick asphalt.[2]
[...]
Paleontological significance
Animals are usually unable to escape from the asphalt when they fall in, making these pits excellent locations to excavate bones of prehistoric animals. The tar pits can trap animals because the asphalt that seeps up from underground forms a bitumen pit so thick that even mammoths found it impossible to free themselves before they died of starvation, exhaustion from trying to escape, or from exposure to the sun's heat. Over one million fossils have been found in tar pits around the globe.[2]
For other rich deposits, fossilized where they occurred, see Lagerstätten.
Living organisms
Living bacteria have been found in the La Brea Tar Pits. These organisms have been shown to be strains of previously discovered bacteria. They have been able to survive and thrive in an environment with no water and little to no oxygen. Scientists started looking for the bacteria when they noticed bubbles of methane coming out of the tar pits.[3]
Other microorganisms have been found living in microliter-sized droplets of water recovered from Pitch Lake in Trinidad, including bacteria from the orders Burkholderiales and Enterobacteriales. [4]
Helaeomyia petrolei, the petroleum fly, spends its larval stage within the tar pit itself.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_pit
This Hellish Desert Pit Has Been On Fire for More Than 40 Years: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/giant-hole-ground-has-been-fire-more-40-years-180951247/?no-ist
Is it possible that Sodom and Gomorrah burned for years and years?
So, I'm not sure if the Old Testament examples of fire and brimstone is the reality or just a shadow / picture of what's to come, comparing it to the agony to come—in a natural tar pit, at least you'll eventually die, but this tar pit you stay alive in and the worms (maggots) stay alive too? though the maggots (fly larva) in the actual tarpits we see now are also alive lol.
Ahhhh, confusion stressed
Though I will say, an area the Seventh Day Adventists are 100% wrong:
They believe in "soul sleep"—that we're not conscious in the realm of the dead. But both the Old Testament and New Testament speak contrary to this.
Old Testament
Isaiah 14:9 (NIV)
9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
• Ezekiel 32:21 (NIV)
21 From within the realm of the dead the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.’
New Testament
(aside from the account of the rich man and Lazarus)
Revelation 6:9-10 (NIV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
We are conscious when we die. But we don't learn anything new that continues going on under the sun.
The Seventh Day Adventist's unstably handle Solomon's writings (the book of Ecclesiastes) to suggest he's describing the soul in the afterlife, how the soul is unaware of anything, when really Solomon is talking about the body, what the body can no longer do, what the body looks like to someone who is alive in the realm under the Sun (not in the realm of the dead): that body is dead and can't take part in anything that happens around here anymore, can't eat, can't work, etc...
The body is not conscious, the spirit returns to the Father who gave it, but the angels take the soul (psyche / the "mind" part of you) to the realm of the dead, Hades/Sheol.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV)
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NIV)
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Luke 16:22 (NIV)
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Lazarus' body returned to dust. Lazarus' spirit / breath of life returned to the Father. What's left? Lazarus' soul.
Anytime the Old Testament appears to be saying "spirits" in the realm of the dead, check the Hebrew. It's not the word "ruach" / spirit / breath. And the martyred believers mentioned in Revelation 6:9? It's their souls crying out to God, not their bodies nor their spirits. The Greek in that verse is psyche (specifically, "psychas" - Revelation 6:9). Our minds stay conscious.
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:17 pm
Shame, I was hoping he would be the right person to vote for. So much for finding a true Christian politician.
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