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 Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:44 pm
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I just want to get what others see. I know that everyone does not see eye-to-eye. I, personally, do not believe abortion is wrong. Let me do a little explanation as to why.
To me, abortion is murder. I know that not everyone will see this way. Here is why I see this way. It takes a woman, on average, about a month to discover that she is pregnant. And then on top of that, each state has varying terms and waiting periods as to how long she has to wait before she has the abortion. Now, at 5 weeks, everything on the fetus begins to develop. And at 6 weeks, the fetus begins to have a heartbeat. To me, anything that has a heartbeat is considered living. If you were to catch the fetus before the heart beats and it is not developed yet, I do not have a problem with it.
People say that women have their own right to do what they want to their bodies. Well, technically, the fetus is not part of the womans body. It may be connected to her, feeding off of her, and living inside of her; but the fetus is a totally different person. The DNA is different... how is that the same person? Yes, the woman does have the right to do what she wants to her body, but the baby growing inside of her is not part of her body.
Now before you go off and think I am some person who will kill you if you have an abortion, let me tell you a few scenarios that I would approve of abortion:
1. You were raped and had a child.
I can undersyand having an abortion here. I, myself, would not want to keep a child attained through a rape.
2. The child and/or mother would die during childbirth.
I can understand it here, too. I would not want to keep something growing inside of me that would end up killing me or die in the process of trying to give it life.
3. The child would be born with severe mental problems or mutations.
Here, I also understand. I would not want to put someone through a life that wouldn't really be a life at all.
But if you are just aborting a child because it would be an inconvience, I do not approve of that. There are other ways to do things like that. For example, put the child up for adoption. I was adopted myself, and it is not bad at all. So many people have horror stories about adoption, and it is not bad at all.
I really want opinions on what you guys have on this topic. Please post, give me references, anything you need to do to get your point across.
I have posted things like this before and it turned into a flame-fest. I think people here are mature enough to talk about things like this, just please don't get carried away... ><;; |
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:04 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:38 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:42 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:13 pm
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iviary Yami_Ichi Actually... science tells people that plants are a living thing. Right, but you wouldn't consider it murder to kill a plant.
Well....Vegitarians don't consider it murder anyway. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:20 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:01 pm
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I don't think people do have abortions because a child would be an inconvenience. People don't generally want to have an abortion. But they do anyway because to have a baby at their time of life or in their situation would be a tragedy. There are very few people who run around having abortions because they're bored on a rainy day. Lots of people mourn their own aborted fetuses while still recognizing that it was the best choice they could make under the circumstances.
In the same way, in the olden days, if you had an infant and couldn't support it, you often had to "expose" it, that is, leave it to die. Abortions are the same, only neater because they happen to fetuses who (until something like the sixth month) can't feel pain.
Humans have always had problems with the fact that most of us are more fertile than we can handle. It's not always tidy to prevent unwanted children, but it's something that we have to do.
Women have abortions because they feel like they have to.
Who do you think is a better judge of their situation? Lawmakers, yourself, or each individual woman?
I personally think abortions ought to be rare and birth control pills, condoms, and Plan B all ought to be readily available to anyone who wants them. In my opinion, that's the best way to prevent abortions. However, until we come up with a completely one hundred percent effective way to prevent pregnancy in anyone who doesn't want to be pregnant, I think we ought to keep abortion legal.
No one who doesn't want a child should have to have one. It's not good for anyone if someone goes through it all against their will.
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:07 pm
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I don't understand this at all.
Yami_Ichi To me, abortion is murder.
So is washing your hands (murdering bacteria), eating any biological material (murdering food), and walking (murdering everything you step on). I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. If it can't sue me, I haven't much quarrel with murdering it.
Yami_Ichi To me, anything that has a heartbeat is considered living. If you were to catch the fetus before the heart beats and it is not developed yet, I do not have a problem with it.
A heartbeat is an awfully narrow way to define life. You also need to explain what exactly a heartbeat is.
Yami_Ichi People say that women have their own right to do what they want to their bodies. Well, technically, the fetus is not part of the womans body.
My clothes are not part of my body, yet I claim absolute dominion over their continued existence. I don't see babies as any more or any less important than an inanimate object, just more expensive.
Yami_Ichi 3. The child would be born with severe mental problems or mutations.
What is "severe"? This allowance seems to be precedence for genetic selection before birth. (Not that I have any problem with that; I just think that you might want to tighten up the language on this clause.)
Yami_Ichi I was adopted myself, and it is not bad at all. So many people have horror stories about adoption, and it is not bad at all.
I'm glad this worked for you, but this does not work for everyone.
Yami_Ichi I have posted things like this before and it turned into a flame-fest. I think people here are mature enough to talk about things like this, just please don't get carried away... ><;;
Well, if it counts for everything, I typed this whole post in a calm, even tone, so I feel pretty mature.
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:49 pm
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DivideByZero14 I don't understand this at all. Yami_Ichi To me, abortion is murder. So is washing your hands (murdering bacteria), eating any biological material (murdering food), and walking (murdering everything you step on). I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. If it can't sue me, I haven't much quarrel with murdering it. Yami_Ichi To me, anything that has a heartbeat is considered living. If you were to catch the fetus before the heart beats and it is not developed yet, I do not have a problem with it. A heartbeat is an awfully narrow way to define life. You also need to explain what exactly a heartbeat is. Yami_Ichi People say that women have their own right to do what they want to their bodies. Well, technically, the fetus is not part of the womans body. My clothes are not part of my body, yet I claim absolute dominion over their continued existence. I don't see babies as any more or any less important than an inanimate object, just more expensive. Yami_Ichi 3. The child would be born with severe mental problems or mutations. What is "severe"? This allowance seems to be precedence for genetic selection before birth. (Not that I have any problem with that; I just think that you might want to tighten up the language on this clause.) Yami_Ichi I was adopted myself, and it is not bad at all. So many people have horror stories about adoption, and it is not bad at all. I'm glad this worked for you, but this does not work for everyone. Yami_Ichi I have posted things like this before and it turned into a flame-fest. I think people here are mature enough to talk about things like this, just please don't get carried away... ><;; Well, if it counts for everything, I typed this whole post in a calm, even tone, so I feel pretty mature.
You consider a growing child to be no more important or valuable than an inanimate object? Are you really that cold? I have a nephew due in 7 days, but I've looked forward to meeting him since he was the size of a pea. Even when he was in some ways an inanimate "object", he was more than that to someone.
I do feel that abortion should continue to remain legal, but I can't grasp your logic, nor your arguments. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:23 pm
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Yami_Ichi To me, abortion is murder.
I can see you made a pretty strong statement
Yami_Ichi 1. You were raped and had a child.
I can undersyand having an abortion here. I, myself, would not want to keep a child attained through a rape.
This is what really gets me because looking at your statements logically you are contradicting yourself my friend and you should be careful on what you say. What makes some fetuses more important than others. Just because they are gotten from an unfortunate incident means that they do not have the rights as other fetuses? what is your take on this?
Yami_Ichi 3. The child would be born with severe mental problems or mutations.
Here, I also understand. I would not want to put someone through a life that wouldn't really be a life at all.
But if you are just aborting a child because it would be an inconvience, I do not approve of that. There are other ways to do things like that. For example, put the child up for adoption. I was adopted myself, and it is not bad at all. So many people have horror stories about adoption, and it is not bad at all.
well as stated above it may not work for everyone and keep in thought that if we alternate from abortions to adoptions we are going to need more funding for adoption agencies and by the looks of our government do you think that they will spend money on some orphans with some poor sap story?
Yami_Ichi I have posted things like this before and it turned into a flame-fest. I think people here are mature enough to talk about things like this, just please don't get carried away...
I try not to flame but this is how I like a debate to start nice and easy and polite. |
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:33 am
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:00 am
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If a fetus is a full fledged human being, then why don't we count it on the census? Why when a woman is pregnant does she say "We have two children and one on the way" and not "We have three children"?
HOw do you define when life begins? Fertilization? When the fetus starts to resemble a human being? How do we define that?
And, DBZ had a very good point. It does sound cold to ask why a child or a full gorwn human being is more important than something else, but he's right. Who decided what the "sanctity of life" applies to? It doesn't apply to fruit flies, and it doesn't apply to criminals who get the death penalty. I don't see anyone concerned about people killing cancer cells. This idea of the "sanctity of life" that we hear so much surrounding the abortiopn debate is silly. It only applies to the things we want to be sacred. It's a pretty good deal, since we just made the whole thing up.
Personally, I would never have an abortion myself, but I would never condemn a woman who did. Think about why women do it - I would 100% rather a woman terminates a pregnancy than give birth to a baby she can't (or won't) take care of. The adoption system is hard enough to go through that if you give birth and give it up for adoption, chances are good that it won't have a foster parent. If that child is so important, why have it if you know it will be neglected? Not every woman is equipped financially and mentally to have a child at any given time.
And, furthermore, how many of these conservative politicians vocally going against abortion would be willing to adopt one of these unwanted children? Why is it that they don't want to let a woman end a pregnancy, but if she has the baby and she can't afford it, they're not interested in helping her? To quote George Carlin: "If you're pre-born, you're fine. If you're pre-school, you're ^%#@ed".
I think that we need to step away from the "OMG you're killing a baby!" argument, and look at everything else about abortion in a more logical way. Yes, very vulcan of me, I know.
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:47 am
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shinobukun This is what really gets me because looking at your statements logically you are contradicting yourself my friend and you should be careful on what you say. What makes some fetuses more important than others. Just because they are gotten from an unfortunate incident means that they do not have the rights as other fetuses? what is your take on this?
I can see where I was contradicting myself on that one. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I guess I need to get a better thought process on this.
And I was thinking about this alot last night after I signed off. I should have taken more time to think about this. I concluded that even if the child would be born by rape or with defects, that it is not any less important. I was just a little too hasty to post this, I suppose. sweatdrop
shinobikun I try not to flame but this is how I like a debate to start nice and easy and polite.
You are not flaming at all. You are being very mature and thoughtful in how you start this off. And because you brought some things to my attention, I was able to see how I was wrong after a bit of thought. Sure, at first I was a little angry and saw this as flaming. But after looking at it calmly, I see no flaming at all and only well thought out statements. Thank you. |
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:04 am
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DivideByZero14 So is washing your hands (murdering bacteria), eating any biological material (murdering food), and walking (murdering everything you step on). I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. If it can't sue me, I haven't much quarrel with murdering it.
Hmm... this is a tough one. I can see where you are coming from with the murdering part. I can honestly say right now that I do not know how to respond to this one. I am not going to come up with something to try and make myself seem all high and mighty when I can't answer this.
But to your part about if they can't sue you. You know that if you were to hurt a pregnant woman and kill the fetus that she could sue you... right? The actual fetus may not be able to, but the person carrying the fetus may.
DivideByZero14 A heartbeat is an awfully narrow way to define life. You also need to explain what exactly a heartbeat is.
Would you like me to explain it this way:
Anything that preforms certain functions to keep it alive.
Examples:
Humans have their hearts to pump blood through the body. [Heartbeat]
Plants have certain organnelles in their cells that they use to make food. [Photosynthesis]
Bacteria feed off of other things in order to keep themselves alive. ['Unno what this one is called.]
DivideByZero14 My clothes are not part of my body, yet I claim absolute dominion over their continued existence. I don't see babies as any more or any less important than an inanimate object, just more expensive.
But the clothes that you wear are inanimate objects. They are not alive. Children, on the other hand, are indeed alive.
DivideByZero14 What is "severe"? This allowance seems to be precedence for genetic selection before birth. (Not that I have any problem with that; I just think that you might want to tighten up the language on this clause.)
I changed my opinion on that one. If you read the post I made to shinobikun, then it says in there.
I decided that just because a child would be born with defects does not mean that it does not deserve what any other child would get. I saw my mistake in that one. Whether it has defects or not, it should be treated as a child.
DivideByZero14 I'm glad this worked for you, but this does not work for everyone.
I did more research on this one and saw that I was wrong to say that. Not all adoptions have worked out for the best, I am sorry I gave false information here.
DivideByZero14 Well, if it counts for everything, I typed this whole post in a calm, even tone, so I feel pretty mature.
I can see that you typed all this very maturely[sp?]. And I thank you for that. |
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:07 am
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Amabael If a fetus is a full fledged human being, then why don't we count it on the census? Why when a woman is pregnant does she say "We have two children and one on the way" and not "We have three children"? HOw do you define when life begins? Fertilization? When the fetus starts to resemble a human being? How do we define that? And, DBZ had a very good point. It does sound cold to ask why a child or a full gorwn human being is more important than something else, but he's right. Who decided what the "sanctity of life" applies to? It doesn't apply to fruit flies, and it doesn't apply to criminals who get the death penalty. I don't see anyone concerned about people killing cancer cells. This idea of the "sanctity of life" that we hear so much surrounding the abortiopn debate is silly. It only applies to the things we want to be sacred. It's a pretty good deal, since we just made the whole thing up. Personally, I would never have an abortion myself, but I would never condemn a woman who did. Think about why women do it - I would 100% rather a woman terminates a pregnancy than give birth to a baby she can't (or won't) take care of. The adoption system is hard enough to go through that if you give birth and give it up for adoption, chances are good that it won't have a foster parent. If that child is so important, why have it if you know it will be neglected? Not every woman is equipped financially and mentally to have a child at any given time. And, furthermore, how many of these conservative politicians vocally going against abortion would be willing to adopt one of these unwanted children? Why is it that they don't want to let a woman end a pregnancy, but if she has the baby and she can't afford it, they're not interested in helping her? To quote George Carlin: "If you're pre-born, you're fine. If you're pre-school, you're ^%#@ed". I think that we need to step away from the "OMG you're killing a baby!" argument, and look at everything else about abortion in a more logical way. Yes, very vulcan of me, I know.
I would also never condem a woman who had an abortion. I am not saying that people who abort children are bad people, I am saying what I feel and what I see.
You gave some very good points, though. I read over this and see alot more than I did before. I thank you for giving me more insight on this matter. ^^ |
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