The What If Machine

[Falathrim]

Hey, look! I can see Longbow in there! Hi Scruffy!

I'm bored. Hence, I am making a new thread. Within this new thread is an Idea. This Idea shall either Succeed, or Fail.

I'm going to present to you peoples a "What If" situation. You tell me how history would have changed, had this What If occurred. Understand? Good. Let's go.

WHAT IF Finrod had married Luthien before Nargothrond was delved?

I did this one with edhellos on MSN. It worked well there, so I dragged it here as a test...

Now... go.

Let's see if this thread thrives or not.  

[SYFFER]

Hmm good idea 3nodding

Then... Beren wouldn't have married her, which means that they wouldn't have had Dior. Dior wouldn't have had Elwing with Nimloth and thus Elwing couldn't marry Earendil who saved the peoples of Middle-earth and had Elros, the first king of Men and Elrond, the Elven king and founder of Imaldris who marched out to war and helped defeat Sauron twice. Also Finrod would have lived with Luthien and possibly not have done the courageous deeds he had done. Not to mention the fact that Beren wouldn't have took the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown and that would screw up the whole arrangement of things. Thank Eru she went with Beren sweatdrop  

[nosila5956]

Ooo... I like this idea.

What if Melkor never became evil? eek  

[Rhaella]

nosila5956

What if Melkor never became evil? eek

Then we wouldn't have a story.

Seriously, though, this depends on whether or not you think that evil would have existed without Morgoth. I, personally, think it would have, and someone else would have replaced Melkor. Would Sauron have fallen if not for Morgoth? Possibly.

A part of me looks at Aule and wonders whether he could have possibly fallen down the same dark path that Melkor had taken, had circumstances been different. The two sometimes seem so similar that you have to at least admit the possibility.

~

Nice thread, Fala. smile The question that really intrigues me sometimes is similar to yours...

What if Luthien had met and fallen in love with Celegorm before she had ever met Beren?  

[Falathrim]

It is said that all evil had it's source in Melkor. Had he not turned evil, it's likely that Arda would have been a utopian paradise of peace and tranquility.

...how boring.  

[Serni]

Falathrim

It is said that all evil had it's source in Melkor. Had he not turned evil, it's likely that Arda would have been a utopian paradise of peace and tranquility.

...how boring.

Heh heh.

Good thread idea.  

[Edhellos]

Well, this is what we came up with last night on MSN

F:
Well, in this alternate universe, Beren comes to Doriath, and stalks Luthien as normal. But when he cries "Tinuviel!", Luthein goes to her husband, Prince Finrod.
Finrod has Beren arrested, he is put before Thingol for judgement, and he is killed the end. sad
E:
lol
but what about the silmaril? :S
the pretty story?

F: Ummm.
Silmaril stays with Morgoth.
Because the Tale of Beren and Luthein isn't heard, the Elves and Men of Beleriand aren't as enthiused about the Union of Maedhros as they otherwise would have been.
Maedhros marches to war, and is completely destroyed. None of the Feanorians survive it; and neither do the Elf-lords who accompanied him.

E: ahahah wow

F:Hithlum and East Beleriand are completely overrun...
Morwen is forced to send Turin to Brethil instead of Doriath, because she can no longer use her kinship with that wretched Man Beren as an excuse to have him fostered.

E: there is no nargothrond, i would presume

F: ...when does the story take place?

E: right when they met the first time

F: Ah. Nope, no Nargothrond.
So. Turin lives out his days in Brethil, missing mommy, but mostly uneventful.
The entire Tale of Turambar doesn't happen.
Let's see... Fall of Nargothrond obviously never happens.

E: i suppose gondolin would fall anyway

F: Well... I suppose Tuor's tale is mostly intact. So, yes, Fall of Gondolin does occur.

E: thingol doesnt get greedy over a non existant silmaril, so he doesnt die
melian doesnt get depressed

F: And, yes, Thingol doesn't have the Silmaril.
So Doriath would remain safe for MANY years.

E: lol this isnt even making sense anymore

F: ...Morgoth would probably need to attack Doriath himself.
But he wouldn't.

E:. oh wait. no elwing! who would earendil marry neutral ?

F: Earendil doesn't really matter. Without the Silmaril, he can't reach Aman.


E: right! damn

F: So, basically, here's Beleriand, if that story happened:
Morgoth wins EVERYTHING.
Doriath manages to stand, but everything outside the Lest Melian falls.
Morgoth would probably just ignore Doriath anyway, because though the peoples inside are free, there are too few to ever pose a threat to his dominion outside.
Eventually, Morgoth conquers all of Middle-earth.

E: what about the atani!?

F: The Atani are screwed.

E: it is unlikely finrod would meet them

F: Oh yes... they would have come into Beleriand, but they would not have been as welcomed.

E: they would have DIED since morgoth conquered everything

F: In fact, because of this, it's possible Tuor wouldn't even exist in the first place.  

[Thaxul]

Falathrim

Hey, look! I can see Longbow in there! Hi Scruffy!

LOL! That's too funny! I'm on the floor laughing!

Now to read Edhellos post. If I can.

EDIT: Interesting. That's all I have to say. xp  

[Falathrim]

thaxul

EDIT: Interesting. That's all I have to say. xp

I figured your response would be something like that. rolleyes  

[Rhaella]

I think it's impossible to play What If (but still fun, of course). Every second something could have played out differently... we're looking at big ones, but there are little ones as well. What if Finrod had not gone hunting with the sons of Feanor that day? The possibilities of what could have happened become infinite.

Hmmm. This could become an interesting argument... Gosh, why oh why do I always think of philosophy? stressed There's a theory (Leibniz) that despite all the evils in the world, what we have actually is the best possible world, and that things really couldn't be any better.

This thread just made me think of it. Is anything had been different, if any little thing had been "improved", is it likely that the end result would have actually been worse?

Possibly so.

edhellos

F: Ummm.
Silmaril stays with Morgoth.
Because the Tale of Beren and Luthein isn't heard, the Elves and Men of Beleriand aren't as enthiused about the Union of Maedhros as they otherwise would have been.
Maedhros marches to war, and is completely destroyed. None of the Feanorians survive it; and neither do the Elf-lords who accompanied him.

Fala, that's assuming that the Union of Maedhros itself would have taken place if not for the Tale of Beren and Luthien. In the Sil, at least, it is implied that Maedhros was inspired by that story in the first place, so I really don't see the Nirnaeth itself happening. 3nodding  

[Falathrim]

Nandelle

I think it's impossible to play What If (but still fun, of course). Every second something could have played out differently... we're looking at big ones, but there are little ones as well. What if Finrod had not gone hunting with the sons of Feanor that day? The possibilities of what could have happened become infinite.

. . .

This thread is for fun, not for some deep discussion on how time and philosophy and what nor works. Way to miss the point. stare

Nandelle

Hmmm. This could become an interesting argument... Gosh, why oh why do I always think of philosophy? stressed There's a theory (Leibniz) that despite all the evils in the world, what we have actually is the best possible world, and that things really couldn't be any better.

Ever read Candide?

The Union was in formation before the Tale of Beren and Luthien. The tale, however, got people to actually accept the Union as a goo thing.  

[Rhaella]

Falathrim

The Union was in formation before the Tale of Beren and Luthien. The tale, however, got people to actually accept the Union as a goo thing.

Where does it say that it was in formation beforehand? All I've been able to find in the Sil says that it was afterwards, and in the Annals, HoME11 p69, it says that he didn't begin the counsels for the Union of Maedhros until 468, which is after the jewel was recovered.

Falathrim

. . .

This thread is for fun, not for some deep discussion on how time and philosophy and what nor works. Way to miss the point. stare

God damn it, Falathrim. For some of us, those sorts of discussions are fun. But what the hell...

If I can't say anything without getting you mad, then I won't.  

[Falathrim]

Nandelle

God damn it, Falathrim. For some of us, those sorts of discussions are fun. But what the hell...

If I can't say anything without getting you mad, then I won't.

It's not the purpose of this thread. This thread is to take a specific "what if" and discuss how it could have changed history. You, however, want to discuss the nature and manner of what if scenarios, and look into their validity. They are two completely different subjects.

If you want to do this your way, fine, go ahead. Just make your own thread. No one will mind; there is no numerical limit to threads in guilds. Discuss it here, though, and I'll judge the discussion to be off-topic, and have it deleted. Moderator duty and all.  

[ChewySkywalker]

Nandelle

Falathrim

. . .

This thread is for fun, not for some deep discussion on how time and philosophy and what nor works. Way to miss the point. stare

God damn it, Falathrim. For some of us, those sorts of discussions are fun. But what the hell...

If I can't say anything without getting you mad, then I won't.

No, Nandelle you continue, you didn't so anything wrong. Yea, I agree with Nandelle, so sue me.

Now getting on to something that should prove my pessimist point, which I haven't stated yet. Fala, you sound like my dad. He tells you to be optimistic and then tells you you're wrong the minute you open your mouth. You basically shut Nandelle up because you don't enjoy that type of discussion.

Falathrim

Nandelle

Hmmm. This could become an interesting argument... Gosh, why oh why do I always think of philosophy? stressed There's a theory (Leibniz) that despite all the evils in the world, what we have actually is the best possible world, and that things really couldn't be any better.

Ever read Candide?

The Union was in formation before the Tale of Beren and Luthien. The tale, however, got people to actually accept the Union as a goo thing.

Candide by Voltaire. Brilliant man. Unfortunately, you should not have used Voltaire no matter how much Candide relates to Beren and Luthien and Leibniz.

Voltaire fought for the ideas of the Enlightenment. He fought for freedom of speech. You are using Voltaire against Nandelle when it can be used right back against you because you are trying to shut her up and not let her express her opinions. Basically, you are showing that this man was jailed in the Bastille for nothing because you are going against what he fought for. The freedom of Speech. Yes, so you only were refering to Candide. But when you refer to Candide you refer to Voltaire m'dear. If I am nto mistaken, you have just done what you shut Nandelle up for, you used philosophy, or at least the words of a philosophe.  

[Glorfirith Annun]

Nandelle, why do you start an arguement every where you go? Can't we just have normal conversation for once? Just once?

Chewy, you can choose her side if you want but when the thread creator says something is offtopic you should respect that.

That being said...

This is a pretty good topic idea. I am amused.

What if Feanor never made the silmarils?