When the Church goes too far

[Sanguvixen]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13512340/

Congregation plans to protest soldier’s funeral
Church says dead soldiers are God’s punishment for homosexual tolerance

JACKSON, Miss. - Members of a church who say God is killing American soldiers in Iraq because of the United States' tolerance of homosexuality are planning a protest at Saturday's services for Army Sgt. 1st Class Clarence D. McSwain.

The 31-year-old McSwain of Meridian died in Baghdad on June 8 when a roadside bomb exploded near his convoy, the Department of Defense said.

Members of Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., have been going to funerals across the United States denouncing homosexuality and praising the deaths of Americans.

The church's Web site says the group will be at McSwain's funeral in Laurel at 1:15 p.m.

"Thank God for IEDs," the Web site says. IEDs, or improvised explosive devices, is the military's term for the roadside bombs, which have taken a heavy toll on coalition troops.

"This is not the time or the place for that," said Ashley McSwain, the soldier's sister.

"This is about my brother and remembering him. They're not going to stop anything. It won't stop him from dying, and it won't stop us from crying," she said.

‘Like a shadow’
Ashley McSwain said her father, Theodis, is a minister at Gilfield Baptist Church in Alabama, and that her family knows that God would not punish her brother and family. She dismissed the tactics of the Westboro Baptist Church.

"I'll treat them like a shadow I saw out of the corner of my eye," she said Friday. "They're not even worth thinking about."

Clarence McSwain was an honor student and football player at Meridian High School. He took English classes at the University of Southern Mississippi before joining the Army 12 years ago.

This was his fifth overseas deployment and his third tour in Iraq.

Protest of the protesters planned
Members of the Patriot Guard Riders, a group of motorcycle-riding veterans who attend the funerals to form a human barricade between the church members and mourning families, also plan to attend services for McSwain.

Jason "Waldo" Wallin, deputy executive director of the Patriot Riders, said the group feels obliged to attend the funerals that are targeted by Westboro Baptist Church.

"Quite simply, we're just a bunch of average Americans letting people know that they're not alone. And to let the families know that their soldiers’ sacrifices are not forgotten," he said.

The Patriot Guard is setting up a staging area at a Veterans of Foreign Wars post in Laurel.

Ed Baker, state captain of the Patriot Riders, said in a posting on the group's Web site that police have offered bikers escorts to the services.

McSwain leaves behind three young children, including a 5-month-old son he had met only once.

McSwain was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division based out of Fort Campbell, Ky.

Yes....this is one sad example of how the church can often go too far. Is there anyone else out there who thinks that these church idiots that go around preaching the death of the soldiers, and praising the deaths are a bunch of American Terrorists in thier own right?

Is there no place left sacred that is safe from the idiocy of religious zealots? I guess not.

Anyway...it is becoming more and more of a common problem, when thiests take thier antics too far, and stick thier noses where it doesn't belong.

So to the Members of the GAU....What other instances have you come across that involves theists taking things too far?

Do you think those idiots who go to the funerals praising the death of the soldiers, and claiming their deaths as punishment for tolerance of homosexuality strike you as being terrorists like?

Finally....In what places does the Church not belong?

 

[Yami_Ichi]

I still go to church out of respect I have for my parents, and this came up in a personal way to someone there.

A guy in my class is soon to be married. All is well, and then her brother is killed in Iraq. Not many people from Indiana are killed in Iraq, so this was a big thing. The funeral was going to be in Indy, the governor was going to be there, and so were the members of this church.

The funeral was very public, the newscasters were supposed to be there as well, prime territory for these people, no?

So now, this girl not only has to deal with the fact that she lost a brother, she now has to deal with this possibility of people raiding the funeral and peole telling her that this was 'an act of God'.

It hurt me so much to see that people would take their belief this far. I respect what others believe, but I will not respect people who go to funerals and tell people that their child/friend/relative was meant to die by God.

I don't know how people could be so cruel as to do this..

Do you see atheists going around and doing this to people?

If christians want to convert people, this is DEFINATLEY one way that they will not succeed.

 

[caustic 0_0]

Wow. o.x
I think the quote by the sister said it well- "This is not the time or the place for that"
Even if they feel they have support for their opinion somehow, going to funerals is still too much. There's no way it's going to make people consider their view point, it's just going to upset people even more. They only seem concerned with getting themselves news coverage. And it works.
It's amazing how they feel the war is God's punishment when other christians that people would still consider very religious and conservative think that God is on America's side.
There really is no way to lump all of one group together and generalize.
Why would God do that anyways? What about all of the other sin occurring in America? I thought you had a chance to repent and be forgiven. I wasn't aware that God was still old-testament-smiting.

I don't see how you mean they'd be terrorists themselves though. They think it's happening because of God's wrath but they aren't aiding in causing the deaths.

Some limits of free speech are good. Picketing during a funeral, I'd be okay with limiting that.
I don't think protesting at abortion clinics makes sense either. If it's done away from the building enough so that no one has a problem entering or exiting, then that wouldn't be as bad. Even if you disagree, it's not your choice to make for someone else. But so many times protests escalate to trying to block the way or getting more violent. o.<

Another article

Nearly 30 states have taken up laws restricting graveside demonstrations. Kentucky is the latest, adopting a measure in late March that bars protests within 300 feet of a funeral from an hour before until an hour after the ceremony. Similar measures have passed in Indiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota and Wisconsin. Kansas may stiffen its existing funeral picketing law. Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., and Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., have introduced federal legislation that would make it a felony to picket within 500 feet of a funeral.

Phelps revels in his critics’ anger and considers it a sign that he is doing God’s work. He isn’t out to save anyone, saying, “The time for repentance is over.”

“I’m Noah … and my only duty is to deliver with great fidelity an unambiguous message from God Almighty without any timidity,” Phelps said from his home in Topeka. “That’s my job, and it’s a matter of supreme irrelevance what people do with it.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12071434/


I found this interesting since you brought up terrorism -

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/wbc/wbc_on_america.asp

"We understand that Iraq is the only Muslim state that allows the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to be freely and openly preached on the streets without fear of arrest and prosecution. Alas, the United States no longer allows the Gospel to be freely and openly preached on the streets, because militant sodomites now control our government, and they violently object to the Bible message...The same majoritarian sodomite tyranny that now guides the Clinton administration's repressive policies toward Gospel preaching on America's streets, is apparently responsible -- at least in part -- for the merciless slaughter by starvation of 400 innocent Iraqi babies each day in your country. If our government and laws will allow it, and at the invitation of your government, we would like to send a delegation from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas, to preach the Gospel on the streets of Baghdad for one week in the near future."

-- Fred Phelps, in a letter to Saddam Hussein,
November 30, 1997

^If you go to that site, some of the WBC quotes are probably not PG13. o.x  

[E_Night]

*pops head in* wink

Isn't there some saying that christians believe that all is forgivin in death. That the reason there messiah died was for the sins of the living. And when all is said and done everyone is forgivin? Okay we'll then in their eyes this guy and any other homosexual beings will in the christians eyes be pardon of there "wrong doing" SOoo... This is still a big deal to them. God is like let it go and his folowers are still beating the s**t out of the dead cat. gonk lame  

[Sanguvixen]

By being terrorist like I mean by the way they use thier religion to....validate death, and killing.

The reason the Terrorists attack the USA is because of the religious freedom really. For them it is a Holy War, and that is what they use to validate thier killing, and praising of those who die....which is religion.

When you have people going around to funerals praising the death of soldiers and calling it "God's punishment for tolerance of homosexuals"....it gives me a sudden appreciation for the Seperation of Church and State, and a vivid image of what those people would be capable of doing if there wasn't that seperation.

It just makes me appreciate being American and having the freedom to choose....and it makes me appreicate that there are barriers to stop Church and State from coming together.

When you think about it location has nothing to do with how terrorists form. It is lack of control...on the Gov't's part. When Church and State combine anywhere in the world there is a huge chance that a Terrorist group can form, and zealots can use the ways of old to get what they want.

Anyway....I look at those people going around doing those horrible things at funerals of dead soldiers(who die so that those idiots can have thier freedom of speech)...it makes me think of them as being possible terrorists...and thank the Gov't for having a seperation of church and state that prevents them from putting thier believes into a violent hyperdrive.

I just get in my mind this "Thank you Thomas Jefferson for the Seperation of Church and State" feeling when I think about that article, and how those people are being like that.

 

[E_Night]

Sanguvixen

By being terrorist like I mean by the way they use thier religion to....validate death, and killing.

The reason the Terrorists attack the USA is because of the religious freedom really. For them it is a Holy War, and that is what they use to validate thier killing, and praising of those who die....which is religion.

When you have people going around to funerals praising the death of soldiers and calling it "God's punishment for tolerance of homosexuals"....it gives me a sudden appreciation for the Seperation of Church and State, and a vivid image of what those people would be capable of doing if there wasn't that seperation.

It just makes me appreciate being American and having the freedom to choose....and it makes me appreicate that there are barriers to stop Church and State from coming together.

When you think about it location has nothing to do with how terrorists form. It is lack of control...on the Gov't's part. When Church and State combine anywhere in the world there is a huge chance that a Terrorist group can form, and zealots can use the ways of old to get what they want.

Anyway....I look at those people going around doing those horrible things at funerals of dead soldiers(who die so that those idiots can have thier freedom of speech)...it makes me think of them as being possible terrorists...and thank the Gov't for having a seperation of church and state that prevents them from putting thier believes into a violent hyperdrive.

I just get in my mind this "Thank you Thomas Jefferson for the Seperation of Church and State" feeling when I think about that article, and how those people are being like that.

but at the same time their not really that far apart church and state. I mean truely when its all said in done the christians will have their way because most of the people in office do have that particular faith. why: the people who put them on the office are christians and their are by far mor christians in America than any other faith. I mean sure their are restrictions but the laws can always be changed and avoided and then covered up. That is why its important for people to stand up for their rights and the rights of others like that other group who stands as the blockade.

U know media hasn't been doing a good job picking up on this i wonder why? the public needs to know that this is happening so that one person will be "shocked and appaled" and then actualy do something about it.  

[Sanguvixen]

E_Night

Sanguvixen

By being terrorist like I mean by the way they use thier religion to....validate death, and killing.

The reason the Terrorists attack the USA is because of the religious freedom really. For them it is a Holy War, and that is what they use to validate thier killing, and praising of those who die....which is religion.

When you have people going around to funerals praising the death of soldiers and calling it "God's punishment for tolerance of homosexuals"....it gives me a sudden appreciation for the Seperation of Church and State, and a vivid image of what those people would be capable of doing if there wasn't that seperation.

It just makes me appreciate being American and having the freedom to choose....and it makes me appreicate that there are barriers to stop Church and State from coming together.

When you think about it location has nothing to do with how terrorists form. It is lack of control...on the Gov't's part. When Church and State combine anywhere in the world there is a huge chance that a Terrorist group can form, and zealots can use the ways of old to get what they want.

Anyway....I look at those people going around doing those horrible things at funerals of dead soldiers(who die so that those idiots can have thier freedom of speech)...it makes me think of them as being possible terrorists...and thank the Gov't for having a seperation of church and state that prevents them from putting thier believes into a violent hyperdrive.

I just get in my mind this "Thank you Thomas Jefferson for the Seperation of Church and State" feeling when I think about that article, and how those people are being like that.

but at the same time their not really that far apart church and state. I mean truely when its all said in done the christians will have their way because most of the people in office do have that particular faith. why: the people who put them on the office are christians and their are by far mor christians in America than any other faith. I mean sure their are restrictions but the laws can always be changed and avoided and then covered up. That is why its important for people to stand up for their rights and the rights of others like that other group who stands as the blockade.

U know media hasn't been doing a good job picking up on this i wonder why? the public needs to know that this is happening so that one person will be "shocked and appaled" and then actualy do something about it.

Yeah....but the bottom line is that even if many of the higher ups have belief in a god, they still havn't succeded in overturning most of the Barrier. Not all of them are zealots, and it helps that a few are intelligent enough to realize that religion has no place in the Gov't.

Yes, the Media does need to jump on this. However...if they did they would be accused of being "Heretics", or "Anti Religion"...or something along that line.

It takes a bit to really tick me off, but these idiots who are going around BSing people at the funerals of those who gives their lives so that we all may live in relative harmony....those ignorent people deserve to die. I wouldn't say that in regards to most people.

Soldiers go over there, and they stop us from having to deal with being oppressed by religion, and those of it that are violent zealots. They willingly lay down their lives and limbs so twits like that particular group can run around believing whatever it is they want to beleive.

That is one hell of a way to repay those brave and selfless soldiers...to go to the funeral, distress their loved ones, and scream that the death of those soldiers in Iraq is punishment for something that is completely unrelated to the war.

So this particular story touches a really raw nerve....than again it comes down the fact that many theists refuse to accept that Church and State cannot go together peacefully. They think of it as a myth, while ignoring over 1000 years of bloody, corrupt, and horrid history that is tied to Organized Religion.

 

[Lethkhar]

Another article

Nearly 30 states have taken up laws restricting graveside demonstrations. Kentucky is the latest, adopting a measure in late March that bars protests within 300 feet of a funeral from an hour before until an hour after the ceremony. Similar measures have passed in Indiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Dakota and Wisconsin. Kansas may stiffen its existing funeral picketing law. Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., and Rep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., have introduced federal legislation that would make it a felony to picket within 500 feet of a funeral.

Phelps revels in his critics’ anger and considers it a sign that he is doing God’s work. He isn’t out to save anyone, saying, “The time for repentance is over.”

“I’m Noah … and my only duty is to deliver with great fidelity an unambiguous message from God Almighty without any timidity,” Phelps said from his home in Topeka. “That’s my job, and it’s a matter of supreme irrelevance what people do with it.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12071434/
Wow...doesn't he know that God admitted that he had made a mistake after the whole Ark incident? Maybe he should read his Bible.  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

ALABAMA

I read as far as a church in ALABAMA.

God I hate my state... -_-


Irony of using "God" as an exclaimation is intended  

[Lesilrok]

What I do not like is the fact that some schools are pushing forward a bible studies class and In my opinion basically I find that too biased. Reason why: People are shoving down one specific religion and make it seem more important than others. I would only allow it if the classes would include a Logic class mandatory to any studensts who take bible studies. That is when the church goes too far.  

[caustic 0_0]

addseale2

ALABAMA

I read as far as a church in ALABAMA.

God I hate my state... -_-


Irony of using "God" as an exclaimation is intended

What are you complaining about? :0
The church group who is targeting these funerals and things, the Westboro Baptist church, is from Topeka, Kansas. The funeral they went to in the article was in Mississippi I think. The soldiers father is a minister in Alabama.

"Members of Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., have been going to funerals across the United States denouncing homosexuality and praising the deaths of Americans. "

"Ashley McSwain said her father, Theodis, is a minister at Gilfield Baptist Church in Alabama, and that her family knows that God would not punish her brother and family. She dismissed the tactics of the Westboro Baptist Church. "  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

Kay. Read that while half asleep. Complaint withdrawn.  

[E_Night]

addseale2

ALABAMA

I read as far as a church in ALABAMA.

God I hate my state... -_-


Irony of using "God" as an exclaimation is intended

Lol aren't we proud of our state?  

[Sanguvixen]

E_Night

addseale2

ALABAMA

I read as far as a church in ALABAMA.

God I hate my state... -_-


Irony of using "God" as an exclaimation is intended

Lol aren't we proud of our state?

I feel it a great honor to have the luck to not live in the Bible Belt.

I pity those who are less fortunate. Give him a break....how can any Athiest be proud to live in a place filled with some of the biggest American Theistic Zealots of our current time?

 

[Seabhac]

It doesn't seem to me that there is any real connection between the deaths of soldiers and the tolerance of homosexuality in the United States. Drawing a parallel between these two things where no parallel exists does not help the church's credibility. neutral