The Silmarillion: A Group Reading [update 4.12.05]

[Falathrim]

So far, The Prince has taught me that being mean is okay.

I haven't done much of that "paying attention" thing...  

[Nimbrethil]

(Oh, Falno3, you're reading Machiavelli. *has just twigged* I'm slightly jealous.)

Meh, all you-excuse givers know I can't stay mad at you. You and your cute little apostrophes tossed all over the place wherever you feel like putting them. Awww.  

[Falathrim]

OF THE RETURN OF THE NOLDOR

OF THE RETURN OF THE NOLDOR

And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth twice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father.

So, you just finished burning one of your sons alive, and now you would have your six remaining go into a battle you know they can't win?

a**.

Nimbrethil

Quote:

For Manwe to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwe still had pity for the exiled Elves.

So it looks like you can thank Manwe for saving Maedhros' life. Eh, Pacha?

Sure, but other than this incident here, what really did the Eagles accomplish? They guarded Gondolin for awhile, and served as an occasional taxi service. Woo...

I find it odd that Chris, while putting the published Silmarillion together, chose to insert Maedhros's waiving of the overlordship in, but neglected to mention why he did so. Actually, he did mention the why, but... the reason why is not stated to be the reason why, and is instead stuck in a page later. I don't understand that.

And you don't understand what I just said. Here, compare to the published Sil:

Grey Annals

To this council came Angrod out of Doriath bearing the words of King Thingol, and their welcome seemed cold to the Noldor. The sons of Feanor were indeed wrought thereat; and Maidros laughed, saying: 'He is a king that can hold his own, or else his title is vain. Thingol does but grant us land where his power does not run. Indeed Doriath only would be his realm this day, but for the coming of the Noldor. Therefore in Doriath let him reign, and be glad that he hath the sons of Finwe for neighbours, not the Orcs of Morgoth that we found. Elsewhere it shall go as seems good to us.'

But Cranthir, who loved not the sons of Finrod, and was the harshest of the brethren and the most quick to anger, cried aloud: 'Yea more! Let not the sons of Finrod run hither and thither with their tales to this Dark-elf in his caves! Who made them ours spokesmen to deal with him? And though they be come indeed to Beleriand, let them not so swiftly forget that their father was a lord of the Noldor, though their mother was of other kin.'

Then Angrod was exceedingly wroth and went forth from the council. Maidros indeed rebuked Cranthir; but the greater part of the Noldor, of both followings, hearing his words were troubled in heart, fearing the fell spirit of the sons of Feanor, it seemed, would ever be like to burst forth in rash word or violence.

Therefore when the council came to the choosing of one to be overlord of the Exiles and the head of their princes, the choice of all save few fell on Fingolfin. And even as the choice was made known, all those who heard it recalled the words of Mandos that the House of Feanor should be called the Disposessed for ever. None the less ill for that did the sons of Feanor take this choice, save Maidros only, though it touched him the nearest. But he restrained his breathen, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance before us, lord, still the choice would come rightly to thee, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.'

Finrod in the above quote is the Elf we know of as Finarfin. The Finrod in the published Sil was, at this time, known as Ingold.

So, Maedhros is still a generally nice person willing to waive the overlordship, but now he has reason to doing so other than being nice.

You know, this chapter was derived from the Grey Annals. I read the Grey Annals last night. I don't know why I just didn't comment then... it's not like there's anything new. Seriously. It's word for word...

OF THE RETURN OF THE NOLDOR

But Finrod Felagund was not the first to dwell in the caves beside the River Narog.

Mean old Finrod, kicking the Petty-dwarves out. Oh, wait. No one likes the Petty-dwarves. YAY FINROD!

And then... stuff. I have nothing else to say. confused


OF BELERIAND AND ITS YAWN INDUCING REALMS

or

LOOK, NIMBRETHIL, NO APOSTROPHE'S! OPPS.

So. ********. Boring.

I'm sorry. I apologize. I can't do this.

I got a page in, and then realized I wasn't paying attention to a single thing. I know all of this. There is nothing worth discussing.

Don't get me wrong, this is an incredibly useful chapter the first time through. Maybe even the second time, when you're still confused as to who some people are. A third, no. Certainly not a fourth,

I'm not reading this.

I'll apologize by posting the Tale of Years. Maybe, just maybe it will trigger an actual discussion.  

[Glorfirith Annun]

YAY I read it... ok, well Of the Return of the Noldor then. I'm more than half way through Of Beleriand and its Realms... my cat is knocking to come in, how cute... See, that's why I stopped reading. Even the smallest thing is more interesting. Lemme try again.

I cheated and skimmed, but I finished it! And I have no comment other than I know why I skip that chapter... sooo dull.

Now that that's over... *attempts to figure out what "Feanor's stupid dying thingy" meant*

I think what that was supposed to mean is that I hated how Feanor caused all that trouble, went all the way to Middle-Earth, got in one battle and died. Leaving his sons to his oath and up against Morgoth while he goes and floats about in firey spirit form in the Halls of Mandos. At least he saved them from having to dig a hole for him or something.

Falathrim

So, you just finished burning one of your sons alive, and now you would have your six remaining go into a battle you know they can't win?

a**.

Grrrr. I think a** is an understatement.  

[Nimbrethil]

You can't call someone who's clearly lost control of their powers of reasoning an a**. That implies that he was aware and capable of making conscious, rational decisions. And Feanor's really obviously round the twist at this point.

As a side note:
Did you know that "fey" can mean "wild" or "crazy" as well as "fated to die"? I only knew about the "crazy" sense. Huzzah for extreme appropriateness!  

[Falathrim]

Nimbrethil

You can't call someone who's clearly lost control of their powers of reasoning an a**. That implies that he was aware and capable of making conscious, rational decisions. And Feanor's really obviously round the twist at this point.

But him telling his sons to go die was a conscious decision.  

[Nimbrethil]

Telling his sons to go die isn't rational, though. I guess "conscious" wasn't the word I wanted. I have no idea what a better word might be, either.  

[Falathrim]

Rational?

Feanor is rarely rational. This is the same guy who burned his son alive just because he thinking about going back to Aman. Which, somewhat ironically, sent him back to Aman. Dead.  

[Nimbrethil]

I know, that's what I'm saying.

If he were simply an "a**", he'd be boorish and rude, but not irrational and crazy.

You know what? This is just a useless semantics debate. I knew what you guys meant by "a**", so I don't know why I brought it up. XP  

[Imyavie]

(Currently read "Of Maeglin")

I haven't much yet, but all I can say so far is that Aredhel is crazy. (In a good way 3nodding )

Quote:

But Aredhel said: 'I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me. And if you begrudge me an escort, then I will go alone.'

I know Turgon was just trying to keep her safe, along with the secret of Gondolin, but still....Go Aredhel!  

[Melian]

I read it last night. Just 'Of the Return of the Noldor', but it's something, hmm? I'll contribute something later, I wrote stuff down, but it was basically just so I could remember it.

I forget my apostrophe rules. xd

imyavie - Isn't it Aredhel? I think you forgot a d. 3nodding  

[Imyavie]

Melian

I read it last night. Just 'Of the Return of the Noldor', but it's something, hmm? I'll contribute something later, I wrote stuff down, but it was basically just so I could remember it.

I forget my apostrophe rules. xd

imyavie - Isn't it Aredhel? I think you forgot a d. 3nodding

Typo. I fixed it. 3nodding

edit: Oh look, poor Aredhel dies. sad Even keeps dying, but then again, it's her fault that Eol followed them. She shouldn't have worn white when she was trying to flee! You are supposed to be camouflaged with your surroundings! But who am I to criticize when it was written that all she did was wear white all the time. ><

Anyways...it's kinda wierd that Maeglin liked Idiril, since they are cousins, but I guess it is a possibility...  

[curumo]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Nimbrethil]

Commenting as I read, so bear with the somewhat disconnected interjections.

Of the Noldor in Beleriand

So Thingol and Melian have one conversation about the mysterious and potentially threatening return of the Noldor and the motives of the Feanorian Brothers? That doesn't seem right.

Yay map!

Poor Finrod. Getting yelled at for no good reason by Mr. McJerkface. *grumble*

Interesting that Mr. McJerkface Thingol chose to ban the language of the Noldor. I don't know what else he might have banned/done to ostracize them, but picking the language seems an especially appropriate response given Tolkien's love of language. I was trying to think of a similar historical event where language was picked on, but I'm drawing a blank. The only ones I can think of have to do with people being conquered and that didn't happen here. So I'll stop being irrelevant and just move on...

Of Maeglin

If Aredhel was such a headstong, independent type of person who wouldn't let anyone control her, then why'd she stay with Eol and let him tell her not to go out in the sunlight or name their son in her own tongue or see the friends that she left Gondolin to see? Jeez. Can we say "Unhealthy Relationship"? No wonder Maeglin was a little screwed up in the relationship department. Ahem. Well, enough of that analysis.

Of the Coming of Men into the West

Ooh, creepy Finrod. Waits til they're all asleep and vulnerable, then he goes among them and plays their harps? I think we know what's really going on here. (I kid, I kid!) But it is a little weird.

Hey, tie-in to the Athrabeth. Too bad I forget all my comments on that lovely little work. Maybe later.

Unfriends? Hot damn, that word almost replaces "redounds". I need to test-drive this baby:

THINGOL (pompously): I feel the need to be an overwhelming jerk without redeeming qualities. It's probably a defense mechanism that can be traced back to low self-esteem and unresolved childhood issues. But who cares? I'm the King of the World!

NIMBRETHIL: You're my unfriend.

Eeexcellent. 3nodding

Did Morgoth hate Dwarves as much as he hated Elves and Men? Or did Dwarves not matter because there wasn't such potential for a strong alliance between them and Elves or them and Men? Or do we just not get descriptions of the ways Morgoth persecuted the Dwarves like he does to Men in this chapter?  

[Imyavie]

Nimbrethil

Of Maeglin

If Aredhel was such a headstong, independent type of person who wouldn't let anyone control her, then why'd she stay with Eol and let him tell her not to go out in the sunlight or name their son in her own tongue or see the friends that she left Gondolin to see? Jeez. Can we say "Unhealthy Relationship"? No wonder Maeglin was a little screwed up in the relationship department. Ahem. Well, enough of that analysis.

?

Note that I said she was all independant and stuff before I actually finished the chapter and stuff. Still, for some reason, I think she's kinda cool....dunno why.