The Silmarillion: A Group Reading [update 4.12.05]

[Rhaella]

Falathrim

However, like you said, the current matter is so clear that there is no reason for any change. And this is where I oppose Chris.

Hm. I think this is the root of our difference here. You're arguing using the evidence that we have, while I'm extrapolating that there might be... something of which we are unaware... Instead of looking at what we can see easily, I'm looking at what we can't.

Mainly... that most other changes can be explained. But this one can't. Something doesn't come from nowhere... even if we don't know where its origin actually is. It's such a stupid, obvious mistake that there must be something behind it. That and the fact that in my mind at least, the Silmarillion version of the events is more plausible.

Ah... We're beginning to go in circles. sweatdrop  

[Falathrim]

To assume that there is something behind it when there is zero evidence is folly. One must have evidence before any claim can be made, if they wish it to be taken seriously.

Thusly, all we can conclude is that Chris changed it, and never explained why. Without such explanation, I am thus inclined to reject Chris's version and choose rather Tolkien's version.  

[Falathrim]

NOTE: I am still yet to read any of these chapters. Nonetheless I shall provide my commentary, as I see fit.

Of the Noldor in Beleriand

So... nothing much happens in this chapter, right? Ulmo visits Turgon and Finrod, thus beginning his secret resisatnce movements I mentioned way back when. That's right, AFTER all hell breaks loose, feel free to go against the desires of your High King. Who's rebelling now, b***h?

Bah. I hate you, Manwe.

So Turgon finds Gondolin thanks to Ulmo, and Thingol is kind enough to give Finrod Nargothrond. See? Thingol isn't a complete a**, he's just a 95% a**. Interestingly enough, Nargothrond (or Nulukkizdin in the Khuzdul tongue) was the mansion of the Petty-dwarves before Finrod booted them out. Nice guy, that Finrod.

Getting increasingly hard to find a perfect Elf. Odd, because allegedly they're all over the place...

Otherwise, I have little to comment on, other than I would SO live in Gondolin, given the chance. And only if Thingol rejected me, because Menegroth is also very awesome.

Concerning Nandelle's neat analogy... let's take it further. The Powerful Aliens could possibly conquer you with their L33t Swords of Doom. Some Powerful Aliens have been friendly to you. Others, however, have stated publicly that they don't give a damn about what you think and they'll take whatever lands they want.

Yeah, I'd probably not be all that happy with the Powerful Aliens.

Of Maeglin

Oddly enough, Aredhel must have been in love with Eol. Elves just don't do that "You kidnap and rape me and I just say okay" thing. Yeah, they tend to just die instead. Thusly, if even for a short while, Aredhel and Eol loved each other very very much.

Also, Eol makes kickass swords. Thus, even if he is a huge creep, much love to you Eol!

Curufin is seen in a slightly better light than he usually is. I say he handled the situation rather well.

And oh god I was going to say more but this Ted Nasmith art is just too awesome. Except Turgon has blonde hair in the picture, which is totally not cool, but it's still just too awesome. I'd better move on.

Of the Coming of Men into the West

YAY! The Edain are come at last to Beleriand!

The Silmarillion mentions how Morgoth himself came to Hildorien shortly after the Rising of the Sun. It is for this reason that there was a 60 year peace between the Return of the Noldor and the Dagor Aglareb. Morgoth himself was out and about perverting the entire race of Men to his cause.

Many of you have read the Tale of Adanel, but basically what happens is that Morgoth tricks the Atani into thinking he was God. This pisses the real God off muchly; thus, Eru does something to the Atani that makes their mode of death different. Scared, the Atani beg Morgoth to help them. Morgoth just laughs in their face. Too late, some of the Fathers of Men are repentant, and thus they flee Hildorien. The last line of the Tale of Adanel is awesome:

Tale of Adanel

And they came at last to the land's end and the shores of the impassable water; and behold! the Enemy was there before them.

No escape for the race of Men...

Morgoth hates everything. His ultimate goal is to destroy everything. His point of view is "If I can't have it all, I'll destroy it all." Given time, Morgoth would have eliminated even his most loyal servants. This was supposed to answer the "Does Morgy hate Dwarves as much as Elves and Men?" question, but I think I got sidetracked.

Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

The Fell Year; Dagor Bragollach. Here perishes Angrod, one of the most awesome Elves ever. And you know what? I need to stop using awesome. There are so many better adjectives out there. But I'm in a rush, so SHHH!

Many of you have likened Fingolfin's act to stupidity. I don't. He knew he couldn't win. He realized, that with the leaguer broken, there was no hope for the Eldar left in Middle-earth. He finally realized what Feanor had so long ago: That no strength of arms could break the mighty towers of Thangorodrim. Knowing this, he decided that rather than die helpless, he would go out with a bang.

Much like Theoden in the Third Age. Theoden knew that war was hopeless, but he rode to battle nonetheless. He too perished. Was Theoden stupid? I'll admit; there are some differences in the two examples of Fingolfin and Theoden, but it's a decent enough analogy. I hope.

Other than Lots of Death, there isn't much else to comment on in this chapter, is there? Hmmm. Maybe I should read it...

If I have any further comments, after reading, I'll edit them in, and then draw your attention to them in my next post.

EDIT1: I miss my Firefox Spellchecker. sad  

[Melian]

Wow, I'm behind. I read 'Of Maeglin' earlier this week, and wrote all my notes down. And then I just read the 'of the coming of men etc.' chapter earlier today.

I'll edit this later, with my notes. 3nodding

edit: it's the.. 16th? Wow, I'm lazy.  

[Falathrim]

So, Melian, notes?

I'm gonna read the Lay of Leithien instead of the published Silmarillion. Just because I can.  

[Falathrim]

The Lay of Leithian

Firstly, because the Lay of Leithian itself takes longer to read than the actual published summary written by Chris (at least, I'm pretty sure it's a summary written by Chris, as so far as I know the text in the published Silmarillion is nowhere else to be found), I have decided to break the Lay into divisions of three cantos per day.

Thus, for the next week or so, I'll post my thoughts on three cantos a night. Or, that's the plan, but I can almsot assure everyone out there in Internet land that I'm gonna break my schedule at some point...

WARNING: I haven't checked to see how many cantoses (is that right?) there are, yet, so there's a good chance that even if I stay on schedule, I'll end up taking longer than Thursday. In fact, I can guarantee it, because I know there are more than nine cantoses (still don't think that's right...). Should've started sooner... Oh well.

I'll start by reading the Lay of Leithian Recommenced. Once I reach the end of that, I'll jump backwards to the older Lay of Leithian. Once that fizzles out, just as Beren's hand is bitten off before the Gates of Hell, I'll grab the published Silmarillion, and finish it off from there.

Each set of three cantoses will get a new post. That is; unless no one ahs posted since my last post. If that is the case, I shall merely edit my old post, what with me despising double posts entirely. The fact that this is a double post right here is grating my nerves.

And that's my plan. Did anyone read this? Does anyone care? No? Oh well.  

[Nimbrethil]

I care. sad

And I'm pretty sure the plural of "canto" is "cantos", so you had it right the first time you used it but decided to change it up for some reason. xd

Maybe it's because you're made of chocolate! =O

More to the point, I think being able to comment on the Lay instead of the Sil for a different form of the story is an excellent idea.  

[Falathrim]

For some reason, halfway through the post I started thinking the singular was cantos and the plural was soemthing else. How odd, that I got it right for the first half. confused


Recommenced Canto One

The Lay of Leithian

A king there was in days of old:
ere Men yet walked upon the mould
his power was reared in cavern's shade,
his hand was over glen and glade.
Of leaves his crown, his mantle green,
his silver lances long and keen;
the starlight in his shield was caught,
ere moon was made or sun was wrought.

I always liked the idea that Thingol's crown was made of leaves. Ever since I read that little tidbit in Book of Lost Tales Two, I've said to myself "I don't give a damn if Tolkien rejects it outright later on, that is so cool." And thus, whenever I conjure up an image of Thingol, I imagine leaves on his head. Red and green leaves.

Other than that, am I the only one who noticed that there are resemblances to the Fall of Gil-galad? Perhaps my memory is a bit rusty,. but...

The Fall of Gil-galad

His sword was long, his lance was keen,
his shining helm afar was seen;
the countless stars if heaven's field
were mirrored in his silver shield.

Okay, kind of similar. And my god I'm just getting past through the first eight lines of the lay. If I keep this up I'll be going forever...

Many people say Thingol is an a**. Oh, and he is, but I love him all the same. The Lay mentions how all the wealth of his kingdom was something he measured small, for most dear to him was Luthien. So, at least he was a good father. Until he locked her in a tree...

Luthein sounds likes such a carefree person. Hard to believe she's hardly younger than Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor. Then again, when one lives in the protection of the Girdle of Melian, I suppose you get to do whatever the hell it is you want. I'm so envious.

Hey, Daeron even gets a section to himself. Spoony bards are so lucky.


Recommenced Canto Two

The Lay of Leithian

Then Sauron laughed aloud. 'Thou base,
thou cringing worm! Stand up,
and hear me! And now drink the cup
that I have swiftly blent for thee!
Thou fool: a phantom thou didst see
that I, Sauron, made to snare
thy lovesick wits. Naught else was there.
Cold 'tis with Sauron's wraiths to wed!
Thy Eilinel! She is long since dead,
dead, fool of worms less low that thou.
And yet thy boon I grant to thee now:
To Eilinel thou soon shalt go,
and lie in her bed, no more to know
or war-or manhood. Have thy pay!'

Before I go on, the quote above is of my favorite lines and has no relevance to the below paragraph. Just thought I'd make that clear. xp

Ooh, nice description of Morgoth there. Contrasts quite well with the description of Thingol in canto one. I'd quote it, but I'd rather not be someone who's just spewing out lines.

All of the names in the Lay, even recommenced, are the older ones. So far, I'm updated them for you, but it's still odd reading about Inglor Felagund, and Barahir son of Beor. And then there's Dairon the Minstrel from canto one... Fortunate, that I know who Tolkien is talking about. >.<

It is fitting that Sauron would be the one who conjured up the image of Gorlim's wife. After all, Sauron is a necromancer, is he not? Yes, yes he is. Tolkien wrote an entire essay on how Sauron's necromancy worked. Eru knows I can't recall where I can find it... any of you HoMe readers out there know where it is? I'd like to check that out again...

Oh well. Either way, Gorlim is dead, Barahir is betrayed. And Gorlim's final resting place? Well, he was reunited with his wife. Tossed right along side her in the huge rotting pile of Beorian flesh...


Recommenced Canto Three

Lay of Leithian

...Ere day was dead
to Aeluin at last he came,
as the red sun westward sank in flame;
but Aeluin was red with blood
red were the stones and trampled mud.
Black in the birches sat a-row
the raven and the carrion crow;
wet were their nebs, and dark the meat
that dripped beneath their griping feet.
One croaked: 'Ha, ha, he comes to late!'
'Ha, ha!' they answered, 'ha! too late!'

Fate plays a large role in the Lay of Leithian, as you may well know. After all, was it not fate that pierced the Girdle of Melian? Even if that does come in a later canto, I say it now. Clearly, Beren was fated to not be with his father when all hell broke loose. Poor Barahir and Friends. They never had a chance.

Ring of Barahir! Just about the... only thing to survive into the Third Age. So sad. Good thing Beren manages to save it. Beren. Lay calls him fleetest footed of all Men. Although, it is a poem, so it's probably just poetic langauge. Still, he must have been fast to manage to swoop in, sieze a ring, then escape the Orcs like that.... so maybe it isn't poetic? I dunno.

Lay calls his sword Dagmor. Published Sil readers, is the sword given a new name at all? Would be nice to know if this was rejected or not. Hey, cool, it says Beren even attacked Sauron himself during his outlaw years. I laugh at thee, Sauron! I LAUGH!  

[Imyavie]

((I'll post a proper reply tomorrow. I gotta study soon and I''m not feeling very literate, 'sides, this keyboard is teh stoopid))
So...the Lay of Leithian is a totally different book, then?

Oh and could you post the picture by Ted Nasmith you were speaking, of Fala?  

[Zurgi]

Quick question...is it Leithien or Leithian? Because I always thought that it was Leithien...because that's what I think my book says. Alas, I don't have it with me so I can't check >_< I'll check when I get home on Friday.

But I keep seeing people say Leithian, so I'm getting confused.  

[Falathrim]

I'll let someone else answer the questions, because that's more fun.

Recommenced Canto Four

The Lay of Leithian

No word she spoke; but pace by pace,
a halting shadow, towards her face
forth walked the silver-mantled king,
tall Elu Thingol. In the ring
of waiting trees he took her hand.
One moment face to face they stand
alone, beneath the wheeling sky,
while starlit years on earth go by
and in Nan Elmoth wood the trees
grow dark and tall. The murmuring seas
rising and falling on the shore
and Ulmo's horn he heeds no more.

You can hardly count this canto as a full canto, what with it ending abruptly after two pages. Still, I shall comment on it nonetheless.

This canto is, more or less, a description of the meeting of Melian and Thingol. See, whereas the published Silmarillion is a history, laying down events chronologically, the Lay of Leithian is, well, a lay. If it has relevance to the story of Beren and Luthien, it'll get a mention somewhere in there. Why, I do believe that a few cantos down the line I'll get to read about the Fall of Fingolfin. Neato.

Ummm. Actually, two pages doesn't give me much to comment on. Melian gets a physical description, so that's fun. Otherwise...

It is here that the Lay Recommenced ends. A few cantos are slightly rewritten later on, but now is the time that I return to the older Lay Of Leithian; the one where Sauron is still Thu and the Noldor are still Gnomes. Fun!

Canto Three

The Lay of Luthien

O Elven-fairest Luthien
what wonder move thy dances then?
That night what doom of Elvenesse
enchanted did thy voice possess?
Such marvel shall there no more be
on earth or west beyond the Sea,
at dusk or dawn, by night or noon
or neath the mirror of the moon!

Foreshadowing, you say? Ah, yes, I say foreshadowing.

You know how I compared Beren and Luthien's meeting with Thingol and Melian's above? Well, that works, up until the point where Luthien flees in terror. Oh well. Similarities are still there.

Beren has stalking issues. Saw Luthien near the end of summer, finally managed to talk to her at spring's beginning... Well, his random screaming of 'Tinuviel!' was so filled with wuv that Luthien finally decided to stand still for a minute, so all is well I suppose.

She still runs off at the end of the canto, though.


Canto Four

The Lay of Leithian

'I sell not to Men those whom I love'
said Thingol, 'whom all things above
I cherish; and if hope there were
that Beren should ever living fare
to the Thousand Caves once more, I swear
he should not ever have seen the air
or light of heaven's stars again.'
But Melian smiled, and there was pain
as of far knowledge in her eyes;
for such is the sorrow of the wise.

So, Daeron catches Beren and Luthien flirting with each other, and falls into state of depression. The people of Doriath, used to listening to his uber-l33t music, become sad. Thingol inquires into this, but Daeron says nothing. ALAS! Now Thingol is wroth!

You certainly do like being wroth, Thingol...

Says here Melian was unamazed. You know, I kind of figured that if someone broke through your impenetrable defense, you'd be just a little shocked. Then again, she did predict it awhile back. Behold! the power of Fate!

Then Thingol arrests Beren. Or something like that. Either way, we all know how nicely he was treated. Something like "d00d, i wish i didnt say i woulnt kill u lol!" I can't imagine what Luthien was thinking when Thingol sentenced Beren to life-imprisonment. What a mean daddy! Why the hell do I even remotely like Thingol, much less adore him?!

Says here the Silmarils were stolen before Luthien was born. Well, obviously that was going to be changed....

Melian here is basically saying that no matter how Beren's quest turns out, it won't be good. Good for Luthien if he succeeds, yet bad for Thingol. Ah, Melian, if only you knew how true your prediction was! A shame Thingol put such a high price on his daughter's hand, even if he meant it as a jest...

Canto Five

The Lay of Leithian

...And all names of things
tallest and longest on earth she sings:
the locks of the Longbeard dwarves; the tail
of Draugluin the werewolf pale;
the body of Glomund the great snake;
the vast upsoaring peaks that quake
above the fire's in Angband's gloom;
the chain Angainor that ere Doom
for Morgoth shall by Gods be wrought
of steel and torment. Names she sought,
and snag of Glen the sword of Nan;
of Gimil the giant of Eruman;
and last and longest named she then
the endless hair of Uinen,
the Lady of the Sea, that lies
through all the waters under skies.

So now, not only does Daeron not play his pipe, but Luthien is so depressed she refuses to dance. Nice, Thingol. Sending your future son-in-law to his death did a lot for the happiness of your peoples. WHY do I STILL like you?

I like the way the Lay tells the story. Skips right ahead to Luthien asking Melian where Beren is, and Melian responding, "Yeah, the Wolves have him. Sucks to be him." So Luthien asks Daeron for help, only to be CRUELLY betrayed. Or maybe Daeron was only looking out for her. Poor guy, caught in a huge mess. Good thing she forgives the guy; he doesn't deserve all this.

So Luthien gets thrown into the first Elven tree-house. What did the Elves of Lorien call it some 6000 years from now? Flets, or something like that? I forget. Either way, this is the first.

EDIT: I'm told that they were talons, or something like that. But what were flets, then? Bah.

Ah, Rapunzel, Rapunzel, let down your hair...

Yeah, that's all I have to say about this.  

[Glorfirith Annun]

OMG! I have so many chapters to read this week it's not even funny. I should be ashamed of my procrastinating! I'm not but it sounded good. It takes skill to put off stuff as well as me.

Anywayz...

YAY! I'm done Of the Nolder in Beleriand. I laugh because for some reason I think it's funny that Thingol banned the tongue of the Noldor from his land. I don't know why I think that's funny but I do.

Random comment from Of Maeglin: He called his mother Lady... it's like animaniacs all over again. "Call me Mom!" "Ok Lady, I love you buh bye!"... sorry, I'm done now. sweatdrop Moving on...

Of the Coming of Men into the West, I've read this over a span of two hours and can't remember most of what I read back at the beginning so no comments for this chapter sweatdrop

And now because I've still so much to read I'm taking a break and posting this before something evil happens and I lose it... not that I really said anything relevant but it shows that I read those chapters.  

[Nimbrethil]

Answer the First: "Dagmor" isn't in my Sil glossary, so unless I'm totally blind, it must have been rejected. I don't remember seeing the word before in there either.

Answer the Second: It's "Leithian" with the 'a'.

And I'm not sure, but I think this is the picture Fal was looking at?  

[Falathrim]

No, it isn't. In fact, I've never even seen that picture before.

But I love it all the same. That's probably prettier than the one I was talking about.  

[Nimbrethil]

I see... I just Googled "Nasmith Turgon" and that's what came up.

All these comments on the Lay are great and make me want to read it instead of the Sil. XD
Oh well. I have Chris Tolkien reading the story of B&L on CD. I'll listen to it tomorrow on my way to school and comment when I get home.