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 Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:32 am
animegirl113 Now I'm starting to lean into pro-choice. Lot's of people are making good points... ugh! I'm so confused! That's what debating is about, to bring different points of view to the table and argue them. Sometimes you may change your mind when you think more deeply about it, sometimes you're beliefs become stronger the more you think about it. I think it would be a good idea to do a lot more research into what the pro-life side is for and what the pro-choice side is for. You can still be pro-life and make good arguments, I have met a lot of pro-life people that have given me some really good arguments that forced me to re-think my views on certain aspects of the debate. :3
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:38 am
PRO-CHOICE.
Personally, if I ever got pregnant and unable to bear a child, I wouldn't have an abortion. But I think it's still important for a woman to choose. It IS her body after all, and nobody else should be able to determine what she does with it. Not only that, it is HER life form, HER child, her decisions.
And for the Pro-Life'ers who think that it's just that simple to not have sex, UMMM last time I checked there were ridiculous statistics stating the numbers of people being raped, either by incest or by people they don't even know. It's not just a matter of wanting sex or not, it's a matter of whether or not you can avoid it.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:55 am
I am pro-choice; what I would do if I got pregnant with an unwanted child shouldn't affect someone else's decision. Just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean its my decision. I could go into a long, ornate essay about my thoughts on abortion, but it really comes down to not being up to me. It's a complcated issue of human rights since my belief lies in that the fertilized egg has the potential to be a human therefore somewhere along the way is, but a woman is entitled to her own legitimate thoughts and certainly the right to use her body whatever way she likes.
The only other real problem I have is women using abortion as a form of birth control which is not right. In my disgusting little hole of a town, its not rare to find someone less than 25 years old getting her 2nd or 3rd abortion.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:36 pm
As a note to people who say that they do not like women using abortion as a form of birth control that is what it is. It is a form of birth control as it controls birth.
I think that if a woman would rather pay upwards of $400-$1000 to use abortion as her form of birth control every time she gets knocked up, vs. spending $30-$100 for the pill, or $5-$15 for condoms then fine, let her. I personally think that you'd have to be a total and complete idiot to not just use the freaking pill/condoms/diaphragm/female condoms/other forms of contraceptives and if you are so incompetent that you'd rather be getting constant invasive surgery like that then I say continue to do so because I would rather someone like that not raise a child.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:01 pm
Pasithea I honestly do not understand all you people in punishment camp. What logical process has to go on in your head that morally justifies using pregnancy, childbirth, and in some cases parenting; the genesis of a new human life that will think and feel and want and need… as punishment to those who you have deigned transgressors? You say that baby making is a responsibility tied to sex. Many people believe that this is simply untrue, since we have LONG had technology that separates sex and pregnancy. And I'm sorry but not every woman has the funds to carry a pregnancy to term and birth. The average cost of an American birth : $8,800 "Nationally, a vaginal delivery cost $7,737, with C-sections averaging about $11,000." Mind you, that doesn’t include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not. An abortion in the US generally costs between $300 and $700 dollars, depending on your location, the type of abortion you’re getting, what clinic you go to, whether or not you can receive financial aid, so on and so forth. Punishment crap? I don't quite see how abstinence is punishment but I suppose to some people it can be. Being a divorced mother, I can honestly say that while I miss sex I certainly don't see not having it a punishment. You're correct in the idea that technology has long existed that separates sex and pregnancy. And going even further, sex is most definently a double-sided blade as in it can be used for both pleasure and procreation. However, someone is willing to use sex as a mere means of pleasure should be mature enough to handle the procreation side of the blade. Pregnancy and Childbirth is very expensive. But every single state in the US (since we're using American statistics) has a medical program to pay for all prenatal and childbirth procedures. Even caring for the mother for up to 5 months after the baby is born AND the child for a year afterwards. Of course abortion is cheaper. You don't have to take care of the baby once its gone! Doing the right thing morally and ethically doesn't mean is cheaper. Pasithea Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenting, not unwanted pregnancy. In order to place a child for adoption, one must first carry it to term and undergo all the physical, psychological, and sociological ramifications of that process. It’s generally a very much life-altering experience, it makes you undergo physical changes, many of them permanent, it alters your brain chemistry, and don’t forget, unless you cloister yourself away for the entire duration, it causes all kinds of social speculation among your friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, strangers on the street, etc. Imagine being pregnant unintentionally with every intention of forking the infant over to waiting adopted parents upon its birth. What do you think every time some random person lays their hand on your abdomen on the subway and congratulates you? And adoption doesn't necessarily assure you the knowledge that the child that you created will be cared for and provided for and raised in a way that you would agree with. You might never have contact with the child again, knowing only that you created one, not whether it is well, or whether it is even alive. The current system of adoption in this country is deplorable, and until every single orphanage and foster home worldwide is empty and there's still a massive demand for children, adoption has proven itself not to be the end-all-be-all fix it solution. While I feel for the plight of the childless who seek offspring, it is not the job of the unintentionally pregnant to play broodmares for them. For every shiny new baby you add to the system, another existing child doesn’t get adopted. Meet Robin and Tyshonia . http://photolisting.adoption.com/foster-adoption/children/robin-11041 http://photolisting.adoption.com/foster-adoption/children/tyshonia+++-10782 They need a family. If I give birth to a perfect, healthy, newborn, and a loving family adopts it, that's one less family who will consider adopting Robin and Tyshonia. Getting rid of the child per abortion can cause just as many physical, psychological, and sociological ramifications as carrying a baby to term can. PASS is just as traumatic as PTSS can be. http://afterabortion.com/pass_details.html How is the speculation any different than friends and family knowing you're pregnant and that you're going to kill the child simply because you don't want it? And even if you don't tell everyone, obviously someone is bound to find out eventually what you did or will do. And then it'll be worse. What would a woman who is giving their child up for adoption think every time some stranger congratulate her on a child she's not keeping? I would suggest probably the same feelings of guilt that a woman who has just killed a child feels when she walks out of the abortion lab with all the picketers out there. Obviously adoption isn't perfect. And there is no guarantee that that child will be cared for a nurtured in a loving environment. But again, reiterated, its better than killing a human life. There has been tons of success stories (and vice versa) of child who haven't even made it out of the system but have become thriving and decent individuals. Any woman unintentionally getting pregnant certainly should not have to play a broodmare for the childless. She could also try not having sex when she knows getting pregnant is a possibility. And I'm sure Robin and Tyshonia have every possibility to become thriving decent humans beings in the world as much as everyone else. (lol, although if I had the finances I wouldn't mind adopting them. They're adorable) Pasithea So, a woman gets raped and then pregnant. Adoption is a perfectly viable option. However, the woman still has to endure nine months of pregnancy. Think about it for a moment. The entire concept of rape goes as follows: something was put inside of you that you were powerless to remove. The resulting mental scarring (oh yes, there WILL be mental scarring) will focus on a complex based on control/power, due to the fact that when she was raped, the woman had none. Now think about pregnancy. Inside that very same space is something alien, something the woman cannot control, something put there by the man who stole her power and self-esteem, that she is powerless to remove. Imagine being raped for nine months solid. I know it's not the same thing, but in the ruins of the woman's mind, it might as well be. It could drive her rather permanently insane. So what's more important? The life of a woman who's already grown and lived and loved and developed a full and rich personality, or the life of a wad of cells? Would you prefer that the cells die and the woman eventually recovers, or that the cells live and mature into a baby while the woman is so heavily mentally impacted that she will probably never recover? I'd say it is far, far more important to preserve a life that already exists rather than ruin it, and create a new one. That's like saying that it's okay to chop down a 2000-year-old sequoia and plant a sapling in its place. Yes, that sapling might POTENTIALLY become a 2000-year-old giant ... but then again, it might not. And we've already got this beautiful tree. And then you get the tricky dilemma of a woman who was raped or otherwise abused in the past, and still traumatized from the experience. A common behavior pattern of a victim suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder induced by rape is to become promiscuous as a self-defense mechanism; she has "proof" that both she and her body are worthless, so therefore there's no harm to be had in having lots of sex. She sleeps around as a form of self-validation, attempting to support what little remains of her self-esteem but failing each time because she puts herself into a situation where she is only used. Since she is unable to form emotional connections, any time a benevolent partner might enter her life with the possibility of love, she ups and runs and tries again. It's a cycle that most never break out of. She repeats the pattern over and over, each time trying to make it work right and failing. For an example, in the movie "Forrest Gump," the history is inaccurate but the behavior patterns of the character Jenny, who was abused by her father, are a classic case. It's very likely that a woman in such a pattern might become pregnant, since she'll often have so little regard for herself that protection seems unimportant. And so even though that particular sexual act was 'consensual,' she'll probably be just as unable to carry a baby as the aforementioned pregnancy-from-rape case, even if it's years later. Permanently insane? I highly doubt it, although yes there would be emotional scarring. Scarring that can be worked through with therapy and support. The cycle of life ultimately ends in death. No matter how you twist and turn it. If that woman's life is meant to complete its cycle by allowing another new life to take place. Then I say let the cosmic order of things take charge. The woman has had the opportunity to live and experience life. And she was probably an incredible person who deserves all the best in life. But so does the child. That child deserves the chance to experience all the best and worst things in life. Oh great, the rape = sexually promiscuous, which in turn = more unwanted children; which in turn = more abortions = more dead children.When that woman could easily carry that baby to term and work through all sorts of issues without having the burden (so much) of sex to worry about or to become sexually promiscuous. How is the rapist taking away her self-control or power any different than the woman in turn doing the same thing to the child? Different circumstances, but in essence the same thing. Again reiterating the 1% factor. Pasithea My choice overrides the other's because my uterus belongs to ME. My body belongs to ME. I should be allowed to make my own personal medical decisions about my body without interference. No other human has the right to use another humans' body without their express and ongoing consent. I do not give a fetus consent to reside within me causing permanent physical, psychological and emotional changes to my body. So the baby is a leech now? You make it sound as though being pregnant naturally causes a woman to go insane. Any major event that has a physical effect on a human being causes permanent physical, psychological, and sociological effects on them. I'm all for making your own medical decisions about your body. Hence "abstinence"; you make the choice to engage in sex. Therefore you are making a conscious choice to deal with the possible pregnancy. Pasithea Please, feel free to ask the fetus whether it wants to live or die, I can guarantee you will not receive a response. For one to make choices one must be a sentient and conscious being. I'm sure you'll agree with me that a coma victim cannot make their own choices for themselves due to lack of consciousness. And yet we aren't killing them off because they don't have consciousness. Why aren't we? Because they are human lifeforms.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:20 pm
I only have a few points I want to refute. I'll leave her to refute the others.
Yes, every state has a program (I'm unsure about Hawaii and Alaska) but it is no where near enough to raise a child. If you split 1 million dollars between a 1,000 people each is going to get less shares than if you were to split it between 100 people. In other words, the more children needed to be supported by welfare, the lower the share is. Although welfare doesn't work like that, each person gets a set amount of money/stamps which is dependant on factors such as number of children, current income, monthly expenses, etc. But if a mother with 1 child got $300 originally, say 1,000 more mothers with children joined then she'll get less and less.
Don't bring up morals in this debate. Just because something is against your morals doesn't mean it is morally wrong. It isn't against my morals. Morals are completely relative to each and every person.
Exactly the cycle ends in death. So why are we so caught up in ending potential life? It'll just die eventually as well.
Easily carry a rape baby to turn? Well, your motherhood has really demonstrated how non-easy pregnancy is.
A fetus is a leech. It is just a wood of cells that feeds off it's host. Scientifically a fetus is a parisite.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:43 pm
marshjazz I only have a few points I want to refute. I'll leave her to refute the others. marshjazz Yes, every state has a program (I'm unsure about Hawaii and Alaska) but it is no where near enough to raise a child. If you split 1 million dollars between a 1,000 people each is going to get less shares than if you were to split it between 100 people. In other words, the more children needed to be supported by welfare, the lower the share is. Although welfare doesn't work like that, each person gets a set amount of money/stamps which is dependant on factors such as number of children, current income, monthly expenses, etc. But if a mother with 1 child got $300 originally, say 1,000 more mothers with children joined then she'll get less and less. Medically every state has a financial program to fund all prenantal care and birth costs and first year of life. MEDICALLY. Anything after that is up to the parents, adoption agency, or adoptive family. marshjazz Don't bring up morals in this debate. Just because something is against your morals doesn't mean it is morally wrong. It isn't against my morals. Morals are completely relative to each and every person. Other people have brought up morals. I'm just doing the same. Morals and Ethics are founded by society and then in turn formed to fit each person. marshjazz Exactly the cycle ends in death. So why are we so caught up in ending potential life? It'll just die eventually as well. That's like saying why make my bed in the morning I'm just going to sleep in it tonight. Or why wash my clothes because I'm just going to wear and dirty them again. Not a convincing rebuttal. marshjazz Easily carry a rape baby to turn? Well, your motherhood has really demonstrated how non-easy pregnancy is. 1% factor yes, a baby conceived through rape can physically easily be carried to term just as easily as a baby not conceived through rape can. You wanna bring my motherhood into this I'd be very careful. marshjazz A fetus is a leech. It is just a wood of cells that feeds off it's host. Scientifically a fetus is a parisite. So are we. human beings are scientifically nothing more than a wand of cells. That's all ANY of us are. Society doesn't deem it right to kill any of us, why an unborn child?
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:15 pm
Misread what I said, "Punishment camp", not "Punishment crap" Hikari Aijuntani I don't quite see how abstinence is punishment but I suppose to some people it can be. Being a divorced mother, I can honestly say that while I miss sex I certainly don't see not having it a punishment. Also misread what I said, abstinence isn't the punishment, using pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting for consensual sex is the punishment. People can be abstinent all they want. I really don't care, but just because they have their reasons for being abstinent does not mean they should push those same reasons on me and expect me to be abstinent. Hikari Aijuntani You're correct in the idea that technology has long existed that separates sex and pregnancy. And going even further, sex is most definently a double-sided blade as in it can be used for both pleasure and procreation. I agree. Hikari Aijuntani However, someone is willing to use sex as a mere means of pleasure should be mature enough to handle the procreation side of the blade. I disagree. Since when does a person have to be responsible to have sex? A person can do a million things that are considered irresponsible by society when they have sex. One example of this would be not using contraceptives and then having sex with 10 people they do not know. Responsibility is defined by the person. I see carrying a pregnancy to term as equally as responsible as aborting a pregnancy. Hikari Aijuntani Pregnancy and Childbirth is very expensive. But every single state in the US (since we're using American statistics) has a medical program to pay for all prenatal and childbirth procedures. Even caring for the mother for up to 5 months after the baby is born AND the child for a year afterwards. And suddenly everyone qualifies for that? Some girls are still considered dependents under their parents and the government would say they could just use their parents insurance even though they may not have been living with their parents for months and started making their own income. The government really doesn't give a crap if you're pregnant or not. Hikari Aijuntani Of course abortion is cheaper. You don't have to take care of the baby once its gone! Doing the right thing morally and ethically doesn't mean it is cheaper. I believe that if one doesn't have the means to care for a child once it is born, or if they are not even devoted to caring for the child once it is born then it would be more moral to abort the pregnancy. But it's their choice. They can do what they want and should definitely do what feels right to them. Hikari Aijuntani Getting rid of the child per abortion can cause just as many physical, psychological, and sociological ramifications as carrying a baby to term can. PASS is just as traumatic as PTSS can be. http://afterabortion.com/pass_details.html And so a woman should think deeply about her moral and ethical beliefs regarding both procedures (pregnancy and birth/abortion) and make the right choice for HER. This way in the end she won't regret her choice. (I imagine if she goes off and makes an uniformed choice really quickly without getting the facts first then yes, she may regret it later, so it'd be nice if she really thought about it first.) I don't think women should be pressured into abortion, I don't think they should be pressured to keep their pregnancies either. I think they should be given all of the correct medical information concerning both procedures and make a well informed decision for herself, like these women did > http://imnotsorry.net/newstories14.htm Hikari Aijuntani How is the speculation any different than friends and family knowing you're pregnant and that you're going to kill the child simply because you don't want it? And even if you don't tell everyone, obviously someone is bound to find out eventually what you did or will do. And then it'll be worse. What would a woman who is giving their child up for adoption think every time some stranger congratulate her on a child she's not keeping? I would suggest probably the same feelings of guilt that a woman who has just killed a child feels when she walks out of the abortion lab with all the picketers out there. And how will they find out? Young girls have been known to give birth to term in old high school bathrooms and nobody knew they were preggers in the first place. It can be hidden if you try. Also from what I have heard most women who have chosen abortion just think the picketers should shove their morals up their a** and mind their own business, or they laugh at them for holding up signs of dead fetii and pity them for traumatizing their own children by bringing them along and exposing them to those nasty pictures. Hikari Aijuntani Obviously adoption isn't perfect. And there is no guarantee that that child will be cared for a nurtured in a loving environment. Trueness. Hikari Aijuntani But again, reiterated, its better than killing a human life. There has been tons of success stories (and vice versa) of child who haven't even made it out of the system but have become thriving and decent individuals. And congratulations to them. But I don't want to be pregnant. So I reiterate, adoption solves unwanted parenting, not unwanted pregnancy. Hikari Aijuntani Any woman unintentionally getting pregnant certainly should not have to play a broodmare for the childless. She could also try not having sex when she knows getting pregnant is a possibility. So you would deny a married woman sex with her husband if she doesn't want children/any more children? Not sure how well that will go over. Hikari Aijuntani And I'm sure Robin and Tyshonia have every possibility to become thriving decent humans beings in the world as much as everyone else. (lol, although if I had the finances I wouldn't mind adopting them. They're adorable) I know aren't they. D: It upsets me every time I go through the adoption listings. I'm like, I wanna adopt you! You're so sweet! Too bad I am too young now/unmarried/trying to get through college. xP Someday though. I'd really love to adopt some older children like them. (I've never been too fond of babies, children I like though.) Hikari Aijuntani Permanently insane? I highly doubt it, although yes there would be emotional scarring. Scarring that can be worked through with therapy and support. And why should she have to be scarred at all? Why can't she just get an abortion and try to recover from the rape immediately? Hikari Aijuntani The cycle of life ultimately ends in death. No matter how you twist and turn it. If that woman's life is meant to complete its cycle by allowing another new life to take place. Then I say let the cosmic order of things take charge. The woman has had the opportunity to live and experience life. And she was probably an incredible person who deserves all the best in life. But so does the child. That child deserves the chance to experience all the best and worst things in life. Why is the fetus deserving of life? What has it done to deserve life? So you think if a woman is going to die in childbirth then she should just die and give the potential child life? What? Hikari Aijuntani Oh great, the rape = sexually promiscuous, which in turn = more unwanted children; which in turn = more abortions = more dead children. When that woman could easily carry that baby to term and work through all sorts of issues without having the burden (so much) of sex to worry about or to become sexually promiscuous. How is the rapist taking away her self-control or power any different than the woman in turn doing the same thing to the child? Different circumstances, but in essence the same thing. Again reiterating the 1% factor. Yeah, I agree, a sexually promiscuous woman is totally capable of taking care of a child. Hey, maybe even the child will get to go through all the same traumatic experiences when one of the many boyfriends the woman brings into the home decides to rape the kid... A fetus never had any control/power in the first place. Why do you think a fetus should have more rights over my body than me? You think it has the right to control and own me or something? Hikari Aijuntani So the baby is a leech now? A baby aleech? Never. A fetus, yes, in a way. In order to survive it must use my body to grow in and it needs my nutrients to survive. (It's more like a parasite, not really a leech.) Hikari Aijuntani You make it sound as though being pregnant naturally causes a woman to go insane. Not for every woman. But for some yes. Women who have a fear of pregnancy, tokophobia, may go mentally insane. (Pregnant naturally? What pregnancy isn't natural?) Hikari Aijuntani Any major event that has a physical effect on a human being causes permanent physical, psychological, and sociological effects on them. I'm all for making your own medical decisions about your body. Hence "abstinence"; you make the choice to engage in sex. Therefore you are making a conscious choice to deal with the possible pregnancy.[.quote] So once I have sex I have suddenly forfeited all choice to make my own medical decisions? I think not. Also, consent to sex does not equal consent to pregnancy. Hikari Aijuntani And yet we aren't killing them off because they don't have consciousness. Why aren't we? Because they are human lifeforms. And they also aren't using another human's body for their survival. I believe that that is the big difference between a fetus and a coma victim, correct me if I am wrong.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:19 pm
Hikari Aijuntani Medically every state has a financial program to fund all prenantal care and birth costs and first year of life. MEDICALLY. Anything after that is up to the parents, adoption agency, or adoptive family. Refuted. Quote: Other people have brought up morals. I'm just doing the same. Morals and Ethics are founded by society and then in turn formed to fit each person. So if other people jumped off a bridge would you? Just because someone else did it, doesn't mean you can. If you bring them up don't give an absolute statement like "Abortions are morally wrong" say something like "In my opinion" or "to me" It will aviod me calling you on it. Quote: That's like saying why make my bed in the morning I'm just going to sleep in it tonight. Or why wash my clothes because I'm just going to wear and dirty them again. Not a convincing rebuttal. Got me there. But the rest of the rebutal is covered by Pasithea. Quote: 1% factor Yes, a baby conceived through rape can physically easily be carried to term just as easily as a baby not conceived through rape can. You wanna bring my motherhood into this I'd be very careful. Link the statistic or it holds no ground. Sure, except for the mental and emotional scaring. What right does a fetus have to exist? More so, what right do you have to tell it that it does? Quote: marshjazz A fetus is a leech. It is just a wsd of cells that feeds off it's host. Scientifically a fetus is a parisite. So are we. human beings are scientifically nothing more than a wand of cells. That's all ANY of us are. Society doesn't deem it right to kill any of us, why an unborn child? Humans aren't parasites because they don't feed off of a host. A fetis is because it does.
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:35 pm
Sorry about the long absence. Life gets in the way sometime. Pasithea Punishment crap? Misread what I said, "Punishment camp", not "Punishment crap" Oh okay. LOL, I guess I should actually wear my glasses when reading this instead of loathing their existence. Pasithea I disagree. Since when does a person have to be responsible to have sex? A person can do a million things that are considered irresponsible by society when they have sex. One example of this would be not using contraceptives and then having sex with 10 people they do not know. Responsibility is defined by the person. I see carrying a pregnancy to term as equally as responsible as aborting a pregnancy. You don't HAVE to be responsible to have sex. Although I see it as not only socially acceptable but personally acceptable to be a responsible person long before you decide to mess with fate and life. Is it truly responsible to abort a child simply because you didn't take the proper measures of protection? Pasithea And suddenly everyone qualifies for that? Some girls are still considered dependents under their parents and the government would say they could just use their parents insurance even though they may not have been living with their parents for months and started making their own income. The government really doesn't give a crap if you're pregnant or not. Obviously not everyone qualifies. Actually dependents who live with their parents are the majority of the ones who do qualify for state medical. I'm living proof of that. And yes, there is a certain income that the pregnant woman cannot exceed to gain medical assistance. But seriously, what's the worst that happens? The state says no? Then you just start back at square one. Pasithea I believe that if one doesn't have the means to care for a child once it is born, or if they are not even devoted to caring for the child once it is born then it would be more moral to abort the pregnancy. But it's their choice. They can do what they want and should definitely do what feels right to them. Obviously, its going to be their choice. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on the person and situation, no one can force someone else to make a choice they find acceptable. Simply because they don't have the means to financially care for a child, or don't have the ability to care for them again is not reason to enough to end a life. There are tons of ways to qualify for aid to help those situations or again to put the child into some sort of foster care or adoption program. Not perfect but better than death. Pasithea And so a woman should think deeply about her moral and ethical beliefs regarding both procedures (pregnancy and birth/abortion) and make the right choice for HER. This way in the end she won't regret her choice. (I imagine if she goes off and makes an uniformed choice really quickly without getting the facts first then yes, she may regret it later, so it'd be nice if she really thought about it first.) I don't think women should be pressured into abortion, I don't think they should be pressured to keep their pregnancies either. I think they should be given all of the correct medical information concerning both procedures and make a well informed decision for herself, like these women did > http://imnotsorry.net/newstories14.htm If she's taking it all into consideration to make an informed decision about either procedure than she needs to also take into account that there is a living being inside her. Nobody should have the right to decide who lives and who dies based simply on wants, although it does happen. Pasithea And how will they find out? Young girls have been known to give birth to term in old high school bathrooms and nobody knew they were preggers in the first place. It can be hidden if you try. And how many teenagers are really that talented to hide the fact from everyone that they are pregnant or having an abortion. The hormonal changes from both events would easily give them away. Then there's the hormonal changes when either event happens. The human body still has to reset even after an abortion. Its not an easy thing to do. Pasithea Also from what I have heard most women who have chosen abortion just think the picketers should shove their morals up their a** and mind their own business, or they laugh at them for holding up signs of dead fetii and pity them for traumatizing their own children by bringing them along and exposing them to those nasty pictures. Well, yeah I feel the same way about the pickteers. They're just as bad as bible beaters. Even if you don't agree with someone's decision is no reason to shove your opinsions down their throat. Its like Get a Life. Pasithea And congratulations to them. But I don't want to be pregnant. So I reiterate, adoption solves unwanted parenting, not unwanted pregnancy. Don't want to get pregnant? Great! I think its wonderful that you aren't ready to get pregnant. And I'm sure you take all the necessary precautions to keep from getting pregnant. But a lot of women don't. They don't give a damn and just decide that they're not going to do anything to protect themselves because " it doesn't feel good that way" or some other moronic excuse and end up using abortion as a form of birth control, like in the end it doesn't matter that they just killed a human being. $300 for an abortion is a lot more expensive than birth control. Pasithea So you would deny a married woman sex with her husband if she doesn't want children/any more children? Not sure how well that will go over. LOL, not exactly what I was thinking but a good point. Again birth control has gone beyond the daily pill. More expensive but cheaper than an abortion. IUDs are great ways of preventing pregnancy, as are condoms. Pasithea I know aren't they. D: It upsets me every time I go through the adoption listings. I'm like, I wanna adopt you! You're so sweet! Too bad I am too young now/unmarried/trying to get through college. xP Someday though. I'd really love to adopt some older children like them. (I've never been too fond of babies, children I like though.) I know! Me too. I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to have children again after my son. There were a lot of complications. But I would love to adopt an oldre child. They're just so sweet. My boyfriend says I'm far to spoiling on little kids. I love to give them everything they can't have. Pasithea And why should she have to be scarred at all? She shouldn't, but life throws you curve balls all the time thatyou just need to make the best out of and move on. I don't thinm taking a human life is the best way to do that. Pasithea Why is the fetus deserving of life? What has it done to deserve life? So you think if a woman is going to die in childbirth then she should just die and give the potential child life? What? Why are any of us deserving of life? What did any of us do anymore than an unborn child that made us deserve life more than them?? My personal belief? Yes, that is what I think. But my own family disagrees with me there. I believe that everyone should have a chance to experience life. And if that means that I have to die for a child to live? Then by all means I would lay my life down even on the birthing table. But again I realize that's just my personal belief and that a lot of people, even Lifers, disagree on. Pasithea Yeah, I agree, a sexually promiscuous woman is totally capable of taking care of a child. Hey, maybe even the child will get to go through all the same traumatic experiences when one of the many boyfriends the woman brings into the home decides to rape the kid... A fetus never had any control/power in the first place. Why do you think a fetus should have more rights over my body than me? You think it has the right to control and own me or something? That's life. Its total s**t and total bliss for every person. Some more ways than others. Abortion is merely a power play over who gets to live the way they want to. just like Rape is. Pasithea A baby aleech? Never. A fetus, yes, in a way. In order to survive it must use my body to grow in and it needs my nutrients to survive. (It's more like a parasite, not really a leech.) Scientifically, yes. Pasithea Not for every woman. But for some yes. Women who have a fear of pregnancy, tokophobia, may go mentally insane. (Pregnant naturally? What pregnancy isn't natural?) LOL, no. I meant that its not a natural thing for a woman to go insane in a pregnancy. Goodness grcaious, there's a phobia for pregnancy? My goodness, ther's a phobis for everything. I think people have way too much time on there hands and then decide to make up 50 million different phobias just because they can; and then the rest of the world becomes paranoid going "OMG! I have *insert phobia here*!!" Pasithea Also, consent to sex does not equal consent to pregnancy. Obviuosly, but it does consent to a possibility that there could be that situation that would need to be dealt with. Pasithea And they also aren't using another human's body for their survival. I believe that that is the big difference between a fetus and a coma victim, correct me if I am wrong. No they're using the tax payers' money to survive. Which a lot of people will say that it can be construed as the same thing. They are using a form of human survival to survive themselves.
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:03 am
Hikari Aijuntani Sorry about the long absence. Life gets in the way sometime. Meh, it happens. I've been pretty busy myself lately. Trying to get ready for college. xD Hikari Aijuntani Oh okay. LOL, I guess I should actually wear my glasses when reading this instead of loathing their existence. I would like to quit wearing my glasses too someday. But I won't ever opt for contacts because I hate sticking things in my eyes. D: I want to get that laser eye surgery, but I'll only take it as long as they knock me out of it. xD I seriously don't want to be awake when they're taking a(n) [insert medical instrument here] to my eyeball. Hikari Aijuntani You don't HAVE to be responsible to have sex. Although I see it as not only socially acceptable but personally acceptable to be a responsible person long before you decide to mess with fate and life. Is it truly responsible to abort a child simply because you didn't take the proper measures of protection? I don't believe in fate to be honest. I think I am the decider of my own path in life. And to answer your question about whether it is truly responsible to abort a fetus if one does not take the proper measures to protect themselves- I think that is up to the person in question to decide. An example of this is that my mom got really drunk one night and got knocked up with my youngest brother. Her sister suggested abortion since my mom wasn't married or ready to get married again and my mom said, "No I am going to be responsible for my own actions." So I guess she felt that it was more responsible to have the baby as a result of her actions. I, however disagree with her, knowing that I am already a very selfish person I would most likely be a horrible mother to any child I have at this time in my life and so I think it would be more responsible of me to abort. Also considering health factors, not only would it be unhealthy and dangerous for someone of my weight to be pregnant, it would also be unhealthy and dangerous for the fetus as well. Hikari Aijuntani Obviously not everyone qualifies. Actually dependents who live with their parents are the majority of the ones who do qualify for state medical. I'm living proof of that. And yes, there is a certain income that the pregnant woman cannot exceed to gain medical assistance. But seriously, what's the worst that happens? The state says no? Then you just start back at square one. xD Isn't square one deciding whether you can afford the kid or not and then deciding on continuing the pregnancy or abortion? lol Hikari Aijuntani Obviously, its going to be their choice. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on the person and situation, no one can force someone else to make a choice they find acceptable. Simply because they don't have the means to financially care for a child, or don't have the ability to care for them again is not reason to enough to end a life. There are tons of ways to qualify for aid to help those situations or again to put the child into some sort of foster care or adoption program. Not perfect but better than death. Actually as it is the system pretty much sucks in regards to financial aid for pregnant women in need. And I want to stop pregnant women who don't want to abort but feel it is their only choice and do it anyways just as much as the pro-lifers do. Which thankfully, the lifers are doing some good for once in their bills and instead of focusing on just restricting abortion they actually have proposed a bill that will help pregnant women in need! It's called the Pregnant Woman Support Act which both pro-life and pro-choice advocates support in hopes to decrease the abortion rate by 95% over the next 10 years. So, contact your Representative in support of the Pregnant Women Support Act Hikari Aijuntani If she's taking it all into consideration to make an informed decision about either procedure than she needs to also take into account that there is a living being inside her. Nobody should have the right to decide who lives and who dies based simply on wants, although it does happen. I'm pretty sure she knows that there is a living human fetus inside of her, which obviously makes this an extremely difficult choice for most women. Hikari Aijuntani And how many teenagers are really that talented to hide the fact from everyone that they are pregnant or having an abortion. The hormonal changes from both events would easily give them away. Then there's the hormonal changes when either event happens. The human body still has to reset even after an abortion. Its not an easy thing to do. You'd be surprised. I'd look up the hundreds of stories I have seen on the News about people finding live/dead newborn babies in toilets/dumpsters/garbage bags/what-have-you and then finding the teen parents and convicting them with neglect, but I'm going to admit, I feel a little lazy today. Hikari Aijuntani Well, yeah I feel the same way about the pickteers. They're just as bad as bible beaters. Even if you don't agree with someone's decision is no reason to shove your opinsions down their throat. Its like Get a Life. lol xD You know it's funny because I have heard a lot of people tell me online and offline that they have gone to Planned Parenthood to get their free checkups/contraceptives and stuff and people have harrassed them and called them baby-killers when they had actually gone for a totally different reason (that reason being the above stated). PP doesn't do just abortions so it's kind of stupid that they go off yelling at EVERYONE that goes in there. Dx (rofl I heard one story that they even yelled at a woman-like man and said, "Don't get an abortion!" And he was all like, "No problem. I can't get pregnant anyways." xd ) Hikari Aijuntani Don't want to get pregnant? Great! I think its wonderful that you aren't ready to get pregnant. And I'm sure you take all the necessary precautions to keep from getting pregnant. But a lot of women don't. They don't give a damn and just decide that they're not going to do anything to protect themselves because " it doesn't feel good that way" or some other moronic excuse and end up using abortion as a form of birth control, like in the end it doesn't matter that they just killed a human being. $300 for an abortion is a lot more expensive than birth control. lol I use the pill and condoms. If the condom ever breaks (which thankfully it has not yet, I have some Plan B for backup). Abortion will totally be my last resort and hopefully I will not have to get one ever, (I don't really care to have anyone sticking objects/fingers inside me and poking around in my insides.) But yeah, the very rare women out there use abortion as their only form of birth control, where they get the monies to afford the constant invasive surgery I do not know, but hey, I still think if she's too irresponsible to go out and buy a cheap pack of condoms then fine, keep getting the abortions. The woman is obviously not going to make a good mother. Hikari Aijuntani LOL, not exactly what I was thinking but a good point. Again birth control has gone beyond the daily pill. More expensive but cheaper than an abortion. IUDs are great ways of preventing pregnancy, as are condoms. My mom was forced to go off of the pill around age 30 because at her age she had an increased risk of getting breast cancer. I don't know why she didn't bother going out and getting other forms of female contraceptives, I guess she didn't know about them. But yeah, I totally agree, we need to start educating teens and the general public about ALL forms of birth control that way we can prevent more unwanted pregnancies which leads to less abortions. Hikari Aijuntani I know! Me too. I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to have children again after my son. There were a lot of complications. But I would love to adopt an oldre child. They're just so sweet. My boyfriend says I'm far to spoiling on little kids. I love to give them everything they can't have. Yeah, I like kids a lot (umm...nice kids) they can be cute and fun and seem easier to care for than a baby especially considering that they can pretty much use the toilet themselves now (no need for diaper changing) and they can pretty much feed themselves which is another plus, imo. xD "I'm a big kid now!" < reference to pull-ups commercials. Hikari Aijuntani She shouldn't, but life throws you curve balls all the time that you just need to make the best out of and move on. I don't think taking a human life is the best way to do that. It is possible to dodge curve balls. If I can dodge a nasty curve ball that I don't want whacking me in the head, then I will. Hikari Aijuntani Why are any of us deserving of life? What did any of us do anymore than an unborn child that made us deserve life more than them?? I'm going to have to say nothing. And there is no proof that any human is deserving of life, but that's really a matter of opinion. Hikari Aijuntani My personal belief? Yes, that is what I think. But my own family disagrees with me there. I believe that everyone should have a chance to experience life. And if that means that I have to die for a child to live? Then by all means I would lay my life down even on the birthing table. But again I realize that's just my personal belief and that a lot of people, even Lifers, disagree on. Hmm...well it's kinda sad that during ectopic pregnancies, you know, both parties involved die (both mother and fetus). And then no one gets a chance at life. Speaking of this 'chance at life'. What does that mean? When does your 'chance' at life begin and end exactly? I've never really understood what people mean by chance at life. I honestly do not believe that I have really had a chance to live my life to the fullest yet, but I guess if I get pregnant and am going to die during birth then my chance at life has ended and I must now pass on the torch to the next person, even if I am not ready and still believe I have so much left to do? I would really like to know what one means when they say 'all humans deserve a chance at life.' Hikari Aijuntani That's life. Its total s**t and total bliss for every person. Some more ways than others. Abortion is merely a power play over who gets to live the way they want to. just like Rape is. Well, you know what they say, 'Choice is power'. Hikari Aijuntani LOL, no. I meant that its not a natural thing for a woman to go insane in a pregnancy. Goodness grcaious, there's a phobia for pregnancy? My goodness, ther's a phobis for everything. I think people have way too much time on there hands and then decide to make up 50 million different phobias just because they can; and then the rest of the world becomes paranoid going "OMG! I have *insert phobia here*!!" Yeah there is lol. I actually met a user on here who has tokophobia. I myself don't have a fear of pregnancy, however I do have a fear of C-sections and any other medical procedure that would require cutting me open and fiddling around with my insides. I don't know what to call it, but that's the one thing I fear, if I ever get pregnant (and am somehow forced to remain pregnant against my will) and then am forced into a C-section for whatever reason. Dx You may think people's phobias are ridiculous and stupid, but they are very real to them. Hikari Aijuntani Obviously, but it does consent to a possibility that there could be that situation that would need to be dealt with. I consent to the possibility, but not to the pregnancy itself. I have already made this decision both with myself and my current boyfriend. If I should have sex and a resulting pregnancy occurs then I will have an abortion. Hikari Aijuntani No they're using the tax payers' money to survive. Which a lot of people will say that it can be construed as the same thing. They are using a form of human survival to survive themselves. And this is like using a person's body to survive in how? And I agree that it is sad that tax payers don't really have much of say in where their taxes go. (Like out here in AZ where I live, for some reason the taxes we pay are going all the way to NY to pay for kids midnight basketball leagues...which leads me to saying, "Why the ******** are my taxes paying for people that live halfway across the US and nonetheless for something as stupid as midnight basketball leagues?")
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:26 am
Now, I guess I've gone pro-choice. When I think about it, why should a baby be brought into this world if it's going to be uncared for. If we didn't have the choice of abortion, we could have an overpopulated earth. And if some people didn't have abortions, then we may not have the friends we have now. My mom had a miscarriage three months before she was pregnant with me. If she didn't, then I'd never have been born. Same could apply with an abortion.
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:39 am
animegirl113 Now, I guess I've gone pro-choice. When I think about it, why should a baby be brought into this world if it's going to be uncared for. If we didn't have the choice of abortion, we could have an overpopulated earth. And if some people didn't have abortions, then we may not have the friends we have now. My mom had a miscarriage three months before she was pregnant with me. If she didn't, then I'd never have been born. Same could apply with an abortion. Same thing for my boyfriend. If his mother hadn't have had an abortion over 30 years ago she would not have moved out here in AZ and met the man of her dreams and had the two sons she did with him (the older of the those two boys being my boyfriend.) If my grandmother did not have a miscarriage she wouldn't have tried so hard to get pregnant again and wouldn't have conceived my mother, and then obviously I would not be here. But do I think that all really matters in the long run? Not really. I probably wouldn't care if I wasn't here (as I would not exist, and to care I imagine you must exist.) xD I mean there is the chance neither me or my boyfriend could have been conceived if say our moms decided to (and I apologize for the imagery) give our dads head the nights we were conceived. And if you want to get even deeper into it, the sperm that carried the parts of DNA that made me up as an individual might not have made it to the egg in time (after all it is in a race against 5 million other sperm). It's all a matter of circumstance and choices really who exists and who doesn't. No use worrying yourself over it, imo.
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:59 am
i am pro choice
even if someone is using some other form of birth control, they can still get pregnant
they shouldnt have to have a baby if they were already doing things to stop that.
and giving the child up for adoption would probably just make the kid feel all unloved since they werent wanted from the beginning.
and if a woman is raped and gets pregnant (small chances, i know) she still shouldnt have to go through the whole thing of having a child if she already went through something like rape like that.
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:33 pm
Pasithea Hikari Aijuntani If she's taking it all into consideration to make an informed decision about either procedure than she needs to also take into account that there is a living being inside her. Nobody should have the right to decide who lives and who dies based simply on wants, although it does happen. I'm pretty sure she knows that there is a living human fetus inside of her, which obviously makes this an extremely difficult choice for most women. Exactly, and you don't have the right to deside it should live based on your wants/beliefs. Quote: Hikari Aijuntani Why are any of us deserving of life? What did any of us do anymore than an unborn child that made us deserve life more than them?? I'm going to have to say nothing. And there is no proof that any human is deserving of life, but that's really a matter of opinion. And what makes them deserve life more than we. We are already alive, we already have a life, they are just beginning theirs. Hikari Aijuntani Abortion is merely a power play over who gets to live the way they want to. just like Rape is. And pro-lifers merely power play to try and gain control over someone elses body.
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