Yackity-Yack

[Gweener]

First, I'd like to point out that humans are extremely territorial. I think this is what motivates our primate cousins as well. So possessive!
Mine! Mine! Mine!
That's definitely a evolutionary trait of survival. So, I still don't think animals kill for no reason. Maybe it can be argued that animals can be killed if provoked or angered. So animals have emotions? Probably to a lesser extent of humans, but I believe they do.
What they lack is the ability to reason between what is right and wrong.
Morals.
What is right or wrong has fluctuated to extremes throughout history. But it still comes down to an individual's personal opinion of where that line is drawn between too much and not enough. Moderation is the best, but difficult to maintain.

I never shared my experience during Thanksgiving of visiting my Aunt & Uncle's chicken houses. The day after Thanksgiving, an 18-wheeler arrived with one day old chicks that were to be raised strictly for the breast meat for Outback Steakhouse. They said that towards the end of their growth, the company would add hormones to the feed that would cause the breast of the chickens to grow so large that the chickens would be unable to walk around.

Now, I don't remember the actual numbers, but we're talking hundreds of thousands of baby chicks were unloaded in flats by a forklift and driven into the chicken houses where they were flung from the flats into the long rows of feeders. The houses were kept very warm and the ammonia from previous batches of chickens stung my eyes. My heart wrenched as I saw an unnoticed chick get stepped on. I had to remind myself that these were not pets; that this was necessary to feed a nation.

But where is the line for the ethical treatment of animals? I read about the cattle being raised walking in their own feces; that huge lagoons are formed of their waste that can be smelled miles away. Then the cows go in the slaughter house to be sliced open at a rate that makes it difficult to be sure not to burst the entrails and contaminate the meat; and don't forget what that they were just walking in!

Have you heard of the shock baths of the chicken slaughter houses? How workers take the chickens from the truck and hang them from their feet on a conveyor-like chain that brings them into the slaughter house, dips them into electrically charged water to stun them, and then their heads are cut off and then they are dipped into boiling water to remove the feathers. Some of them avoid the shock bath and the head slicing by wriggling around and pulling themselves up, so they are boiled alive. I hear in Europe, they gas the chickens instead of using the shock baths.

At some point, the treatment and care of these animals begins to affect us. Maybe this is what is considered karma. It goes back to defining the line. We need to kill animals to survive, but our survival depends on their survival or continued existence.

How's that for a little food for thought? My crazy-train of thought! xd  

[Gweener]

Zoos are probably the result of our need to possess. It is promoted that their purpose is for education, so that it may increase our concern for animals in the wild. But I bet that wasn't the the reason wild animals were first caged. Circuses. Don't we all have a need, deep down, to feel closer to the animals? I just wish that things could be as close to nature as possible. For the zoo animals to be content (and breed) in captivity, their environment must be at least close to how it would be if they were in the wild. Why can't we treat the ones we eat the same? Wouldn't it be better for the cows and chickens to be able to roam grassy fields, free of hormones? But then we can't produce enough, fast enough to feed our demands. I'm afraid that there's only so much abuse this world can take from humanity before we begin to reap what we've sown. How far will we push the line before we realise that we have actually crossed it?

I think we have a certain amount of responsibility to respect life. That means minimizing our destructiveness. The problem is that there are so many people in the world, that as individuals, we don't believe there can be a change of direction. [What am I supposed to do? I like a good BBQ!] So the snowball keeps growing and gaining speed.

I remember a study on populations. The way when things are good, a species will prosper and grow in numbers until the environment can no longer support it, or a disease spreads and the population drastically drops and then repeats the cycle of slowly growing again until the next cataclysmic event.

I understand the "why." But I think we all need to become more concerned about the "how."  

[ChainsawDooM]

Personally, I think we spend way too much time worrying about medicine. I understand it, and it's not like I don't think it's noble. I mean, who doesn't want to see their family members live longer. However, if you look at the survival of our entire species, we need to be looking for a way to solve the population explosion problem first, before we make it worse with better medicine.

And as far as gassing animals goes, I don't really like that idea. A whole bunch of stuff could go wrong, and then you've got a release of deadly chemicals into the atmosphere.

As far as the conditions for animal slaughter go again... I already agreed that it could be better, but it's hard for me to justify any drastic changes when I know they're just going to be killed, anyway. And I do wish they'd stop putting growth hormones in our food..., It's really bad for us.  

[Gweener]

Yah, I wondered what the possible side effects of continually eating gassed animals could be.

And the life span has been extended but what is the quality of that life? Our elders get stuck into homes with strangers paid to care for them, or they stay with the family and begin to feel like a burden. I don't want to feel discarded when I get old; I want to be respected and loved. Maybe it's possible, if families can remain close, for the Grandparents and the Grandchildren to do more for each other, resulting in benefits to both?

And I can't imagine anyone in a position of power to ever confront or even admitting there is problem with the rate of growth of populations. They can't remain politically correct! Because who is most likely to make babies with no thought of if there are means to provide for them? Well, you can count the smart ones out. So if smart people are slowly becoming the minority, what does the future look like? The movie Idiocracy comes to mind again.  

[ChainsawDooM]

I'm still waiting for them to develop a pill that contains an entire days worth of nutrition in it... vitamins, proteins, carbs, the works. ... Wonder if that's even possible. Hell... I wouldn't mind if it were like 5 pills, really.

I think they need to work on the food crisis first... food and living area... but you can't really increase land... Our only options are, I guess, space colonization, some kind of... undersea living... or giant floating cities (balloons, or something?)

... Oh, yeah, we could also start building underground instead of just up. Underground cities are completely possible with today's technology... It'd probably cost less than building man-made islands in the ocean (or under the ocean), take less time than space colonization, and is more feasible than flying cities.

... Of course... If the crap really starts to get bad enough... we could always start to develop Antarctica... or something...  

[Hazumu-san]

Wow so many thoughts, very interesting! I hope I may add my thoughts too!

Animals: I think Chainsaw is essentially correct about our use of animals. However I think there should be moderation and humane ways of farming and use. Like, Gwee I think there should be moderation in our consumption, but that seems to be a flaw in our culture, where consumption is everything, but I digress.

As for the hormone thing, I read a report that is destroying the males in our population. Making them less fertile and feminizing them. Kind of scary! Even worse are the other chemicals that we pollute world with are doing the same thing. So yikes.

With population growing we will have to find ways to house and feed all of them.
I saw a show about engineering tomorrow. In Japan they are thinking about making a giant structure that would house over a million people and only take up only a few acres, It had internal parks and everything. I thought it was pretty wild.

I think we are on the right track with medicine and extending our lives. Although I think we are still in the early stages of such work. We still have a lot of work to increase the quality of life as you age. There seems to be progress from what I have been reading, but we have a long way to go. Of course, this does add to our population problems, sometimes we create our own problems. sad Maybe is just my love of Sci-fi, but space colonies sound cool!

Thanks for reading my opinions smile  

[ChainsawDooM]

Yeah... the hormones in food are bad. Another problem is our drinking water, if you'll believe it. I remember reading a story about some of the chemicals in contraceptives or hormonal controls... I'm not sure which. Anyway, after those chemicals passed through the body, they are put back into the water supply. Unfortunately, the water purification process doesn't remove many of the chemicals in those medications, so they stay around in drinking water and are causing more and more problems for guys.

And you know, vegetarian males who want to get away from all the crap in our food and water? Well... there's a chemical in soy products called Genistein. ... It does some good things... but it also does A LOT of bad things, and even more to males. If you want to learn more about it, here's the wikipedia article. link  

[Hazumu-san]

Wow that wiki article was wild, and scary.  

[Gweener]

Wow, that is scary!
I had no idea.

It makes sense that the Japanese would be the first to maximize an area's potential.
All this space colony talk, got my imagination to spinning last night, when I was supposed to be going asleep, of course! so I had to take out my notebook and jot some writing ideas down.
I still like the idea of living under ground too. That reminded me of when I was little, still in elementary school. I would play in the back yard under some shade trees at the back of the property, and being young, and not afraid to get dirty, I'd sat digging in the dirt, noticing how much cooler it was even in the heat of Summer; and got the bright idea to dig and underground club house. Needless to say, it never turned out the way it looked in my imagination and before long, the rains turned it into a huge mud puddle. But I still think it was a cool idea. No more worry about tornadoes! earth quakes and floods would still be problems, though.  

[Gweener]

Oh man, today's back to reality for me.
5:30 am came way to fast!
I hate mornings.

The stimulating converation has been quite a delight, though.
Thank You!

I don't know what I'm running on this morning,
but I did add some things in my sub-forum
for when anybody gets bored.  

[ChainsawDooM]

Alright, I'll go check them out.  

[Gweener]

Ugh... It's only 9:30 and I feel so tired that patience is waning.
I don't like feeling cranky.
Hopefully I'll be in and out through-out the day during the breaks.
(I may leave myself logged in regardless) Some adult company may help me endure this Monday.

Anyway, I was thinking about the med the doc gave me to help me sleep. It's for anxiety too. Elavil.
I'm not sure if I should continue taking it. Sometimes, it just doesn't work. I hate taking something if I don't have to.
But maybe it does help with anxiety.

Is it me, or does it seem like more and more people are on some kind of anxiety med? What's this the result of? Our population explosion (society anxiety!~ ha, just had to say that out-loud!) Or drug companies & docs looking to make money?

What do you think about Sloth as one of the deadly sins? To have thoughts of apathy and sadness is a sin and these thoughts must be stopped as soon as you begin to have them. Is it within our control?  

[ChainsawDooM]

... Religious discussion, eh? Pretty ballsy. ... Especially considering the current company.

Personally, if there is a God, I don't think He's as a**l and rulesy as people tend to think He is. Really, I only see Him getting pissed off at people when they deliberately do something that causes harm to someone else, or otherwise detracts from the quality of their life. Why should he punish people who are lazy... when... you know... It's just a little hypocritical.

I know, I know, I know... He did that whole "creation of all existence thing"... but that was like... over 4.2 billion years ago. Then, He (possibly) did a whole bunch of stuff about 2000 or so years ago... and then... nothin', not a peep. I'd say layin' idly by for 2,000 years is kinda lazy. Yeah, I guess He could be watchin' over us... but... you could say some guy name Bill who plays some Real Time Strategy game like Civilization is doin' the same thing... and If he played it for 2,000 years (or even for a week straight) people would call him a lazy, good-for-nothin' beatnik. Little bit hypocritical there... but that's really not the point.

I really just don't think He'd really care about laziness... I mean... there are a lot bigger fish to fry than Bill.
Now... If Bill just sat there and played his game while his neighbor's house caught on fire right outside his window in plain sight, killing everyone inside and Bill just sat there not caring and kept playing his game... that's another story. But really... there's some fine lines in there that I don't think as mortal we would be able to define ourselves... so it's really up to each of us individually to decide what might cross the line.

I prefer to think of God as a mellow and really cool dude... not an a**l bureaucrat with control issues who condemns every person who commits the smallest mistake to the deepest recesses of Hell. ... Surfer God would be awesome... Perfect companion to my personal belief that Jesus was the first Hippie (whether or not he was the messiah, he was still a hippie...).  

[ChainsawDooM]

... ...
I have a strange craving for some doughnuts... so... even though it's like... freezing raining outside... I'm gonna go see if I can get some doughnuts.

Be back in a few.  

[ChainsawDooM]

And I'm back... and satiated.

What'd I miss? Oh, that's right, nothing, because this guild isn't as active as the forums used to be fore some reason... Even when we, like... had the same amounts of people online...

... Sorry... I'm getting a little cranky... Been up all night and all that jazz. This time for a good reason, though.