The Silmarillion: A Group Reading [update 4.12.05]

[Kementari]

Nimbrethil

I see... I just Googled "Nasmith Turgon" and that's what came up.

All these comments on the Lay are great and make me want to read it instead of the Sil. XD
Oh well. I have Chris Tolkien reading the story of B&L on CD. I'll listen to it tomorrow on my way to school and comment when I get home.

surprised

I have that too. Why didn't I think about listening to it? I'm so silly.

But I did read it today. Lets see...comments...comments...

Why did the orcs only take Barahirs hand? Wouldn't his head be better proof that he is dead, I mean, the orcs could have taken some random guys hand and tried to pass it off as Barahir. Assuming if they didn't kill him, they were able to get his ring.

I don't see a problem with Thingol. Sure he comes off as a bit of an asshat, but he was trying to protect his daughter. You know your father cares when he sends the man you love on a suicide mission.

Celegorm and Curufin are asses. Causing the Elves of Nargothrond to become ninjas.
What colour fur does Huan have? I don't know why, but I imagine him to have dark fur, and Carcharoth to have white fur.

And that's all I have to say for this chapter for now. I may think of other stuff to say later, when more people post about this chapter.  

[Zurgi]

Nimbrethil

Answer the Second: It's "Leithian" with the 'a'.

Thank you. I'm still pretty sure my version has it as Leithien, though. I shall have to check when I get home tomorrow and then yell at the book if it is wrong.

Hmm, my version of the Lost Road and Other Writings does have it as Leithian though...and it's from the same set as my Lays of Beleriand.

See, this is why I got confused. I'm still adamant that my Lays of Beleriand has it with an 'e'. Bleh. Tomorrow I check.  

[curumo]

I happen to have Lays of Beleriand, and mine spells it with an 'a'. xp  

[Falathrim]

Canto Six

The Lay of Leithian

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey,
but sullen murmured that Finrod
nor yet his son were as a god.
Then Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,
the silver helm of Nargothrond.
'Yours ye may break, but I my bond
must keep, and kingdom here forsake.
If hearts here were that did not quake,
of that to Finrod's son were true,
then I at least should find a few
to go with me, not like a poor
rejected beggar scorn endure,
turned from my gates to leave my town,
my people, and my realm and crown!'

I don't really have all that much to say about this canto, other than that the defense was really awesome and that it's a damn shame Turin (as awesome though he may be) managed to get these guys to reject it. Then again, Morgoth would have found Nargothrond eventually, so it's a moot point.

Beren comes to Nargothrond, and gets Finrod to help him out. Celegorm and Curufin speak as well as their father did, though, and so only ten go with Beren and Finrod. Shame. And Curufin merely smiles, after having (more or less) overthrowing the kingship of Nargothrond.

a**.

EDIT: It seems as if Thingol's crown is green and silver, not green and red. Red probably hearkens back to Book of Lost Tales. Still, like I said, I will probably forever imagine red and green. One of those "I know I'm wrong but I can't help it" dealies.

Canto Seven

The Lay of Leithian

He chanted a song of wizardry,
of piercing, opening, of treachery,
revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then suddenly Felagund there swaying
sang in answer a song of staying,
resisting, battling against power,
of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
and trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
of changing and of shifting shape,
of snares eluded, broken traps,
the prison opening, the chain that snaps.

Short canto. Finrod and Beren come to Minas Tirith and are captured by Sauron. Not much to comment on, except that Sauron has cruel and unusual punishment down perfectly.


Canto Eight

The Lay of Leithian

And ere he ceased he counsel wrought
for achievement of the things they sought.
There Luthien listened in amaze,
and softly on Huan did she gaze.
Her arms about his neck she cast-
in friendship that to death should last.

In this canto, Luthein comes across the Feanorians. She tells them that Beren is in the Den of Wolves, and the Feanorians are all "Dude! Beren was with Finrod! That means Finrod is probably dead!" And then they are all happy, and Curufin attempts to get hitched with Luthien, and they pretty much kick Orodreth aside...

...asses.

Huan kicks their asses, though, so YAY!

And that is all. Huan, we slaute thee.  

[Nimbrethil]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Zurgi]

curumo

I happen to have Lays of Beleriand, and mine spells it with an 'a'. xp

Yeahh...I had just like, gone insane or something. I could swear I had checked it before and gotten confused because it had an 'e' in my edition. But nooo..it has an 'a'. Now I'm wondering where my brain got that idea. I'm going to have to look through all my books at some point and see where I went crazy.  

[Rhaella]

Wow. I leave and you start discussing my favourite chapters. sweatdrop Being the obsessive language freak, I'll look at the... two language related questions and then reread this when I'm not half asleep...

Ah, and Falathrim, you're comments here have been highly amusing. heart heart

Falathrim

So Luthien gets thrown into the first Elven tree-house. What did the Elves of Lorien call it some 6000 years from now? Flets, or something like that? I forget. Either way, this is the first.

EDIT: I'm told that they were talons, or something like that. But what were flets, then? Bah.

The singular is talan, the plural is talami. It's Quenya. "Flet" must be the English translation. Well... sort of, at least. The actual translation is "floor" or "ground".

And yes, it is Leithian, which means "freeing, releasing" in Sindarin (the verb "to free" being leithia~).

And I have no idea why I'm giving you Elvish lessons... so I had better quit and formulate some real thoughts on the matter...  

[Nimbrethil]

No excuse today. I planned on commenting last night, but got distracted. Anyway, here it is.

Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

So I read this when I woke up this morning and put little notes in the margins to help me remember my comments.

Quote:

...none saw Beren of Luthien leave the world, or marked where at last their bodies lay.

In the margin I have a note that says, "escape death again?" Their isolation after returning and their unmarked final passing made me think that, by escaping observation, they've escaped a final, recorded, witnessed death. Although it's not that we can assume that they didn't eventually die, it's like they avoided definite conclusion ("bondage", if you will) in historical records. I don't know if that makes sense. Did to me.

Quote:

...but Celegorm and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his people, if... the jewels were not surrendered of free will.

Stupid thought: what if they made an oath not to keep the first Oath? Not that they'd have a reason or desire to do that. But it just occurred to me, so I'm sharing.

My next note is only there because it was talking about Morgoth's secret alliances and it reminded me of Survivor. -_-

Then nothing until the battle's almost over, and then I have written at the bottom of the page, "division of hosts symbolic?"
I was thinking that the literal division of the two hosts might be symbolic (or reflective) of the rifts and treacheries that plague the good guys. What that's good for, I'm not sure. But there are other instances of things going wrong when plans or people aren't fully brought together (the music, Maedhros and Morgoth making trial of their strength too soon), so maybe it's some kind of theme. I'm such an English student. XP

And that was about it. I couldn't think of anything beyond "OMG" to say to the actual story, so I'll just leave that out. ^_^  

[Kementari]

Nimbrethil

Kementari, you have that special Sil gift package edition thingy? We're BOOK TWINS! crying

OMG, we're special.

~~~

Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

I don't have any comments on this chapter, except, if done correctly that battle would look so awesome on film.
I don't want it done, I'm content visualizing it with my imagination, but it would with the technology and such we have today.  

[Falathrim]

*is falling behind*

...again. stare  

[Imyavie]

Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

I think this was my favourite chapter as of late. I agree with Kem that this would look pretty cool if it were filmed.

Stupid Gothmog...beating the crap out of Fingon when he was already dead sad (I feel sad when Fingolfin's sons die...even if I don't like them that much).

Oh yeah, and Huor + arrow in his eye = imyavie twitching ><".

edit:

Falathrim

Huan kicks their asses, though, so YAY!

And that is all. Huan, we salute thee.

Hurrah! I love Huan.
(When I first read the name 'Huan' in the Sil, I was all like, "SHOMG, Soul Calibur!"(You know...Hwan?? Oh, nevermind)
...Yes. Yes I am rather odd.)
Oh yeah, you wrote 'slaute' instead of 'salute'...just thought I'd point that out blaugh .  

[Nimbrethil]

Well, looks like it's that time of week again. At least I'm posting before 10pm. ...And I'm posting.

Of Turin Turambar
So I decided to read the UT version in addition to the Sil version, because compared to the UT version, the Sil version just feels like a cheap summary that leaves out all the juicy bits like Hunthor speaking and Saeros' bloody mouth and good old Hopafoot and Hunthor speaking.

Fixation? What fixation?

Silmarillion Comments
What I came up with is once again captured in little pencil scratchings in the margins from a week ago. Writing in books means you're serious.

First Sil note is a large "LOL" beside the passage where Turin throws the cup at Saeros. I'm sure I was laughing with purely intellectual delight at some symbolic insight I discovered, rather than at someone else's pain. Definitely.

The other notes are comments on Turin's personality, focussing on his emphasized pride. As Gwindor says,

Gwindor

The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.

Which reminds me of hubris and how well Turin fits Aristotle's tragic hero model.

Ooh, and then I decided that the frozen state of the pools of Irvin upon Turin's second visit there was symbolic of something which I neglected to write down for myself. Turin's mental/emotional state, maybe?

And that was it for the Sil.

Unfinished Tales Comments

Sador

And yet I think sometimes that it might have been better if we had never met [the Eldar], but had walked in lowlier ways.

It might have been I who commented earlier on the question of whether Elvish history might have been better had the Valar not wanted them to come to Valinor. This quotation made me think of the Valar/Elves Elves/Men (and also Orcs/Evil Men, due to another quote I found) parallel. You know, in terms of who finds them upon their awakening and who teaches them stuff. Men are completely at the bottom of the wisdom food chain, which is interesting if that's where these legends and histories are supposed to be coming from.

I had to skip a bit in the middle, because I ran out of time. *shame*

From when Turin leads Dorlas & Hunthy across the water

And he went on before them, and by skill and hardihood, or by fate, he came across...

Stupid ambiguity.

I'd like to point out Hunthor's courage.

Again with the ambiguity

'But when we know,' said Hunthor, 'then there will be no time to seek a way up out of the chasm.'
'Truly,' said Turambar. 'But where all lies on chance, to chance we must trust.'

Fate is different than chance, no? Chance being unpredictable? Bleh.

And here's the reason Hunthor's so damn great

Heedless of peril Turambar clambered along the water-edge to come beneath [Glaurung]; but there so deadly was the heat and the stench that he tottered and would have fallen if Hunthor, following stoutly behind, had not seized his arm and steadied him.
'Great heart!' said Turambar. 'Happy was the choice that took you for a helper!' But even as he spoke, a great stone hurtled from above and smote Hunthor on the head, and he fell into the water, and so ended: not the least valiant of the house of Haleth.

Stupid fate.

And before I forget, I made some Gurthang fanart, which I made using only MSPaint and several glasses of cheap wine.  

[Falathrim]

I was going to read this last night, but then my idiot professor's ambiguity and lack of proofreading skills forced me to do a huge a** assignment instead. And it turns out it was just a typo and that it wasn't due until next week anyway.

And I'm doing stuff tonight, so I can't read my favorite tale into tomorrow at least. sad  

[Imyavie]

So far, 'Of Turin Turambar' is my favourite chapter. I loved it so much! But since I have lots of work to do, I can't post my opinions properly today. So, maybe tomorrow.  

[Nimbrethil]

Meh, ok. I'll wait until tomorrow to do the first post edit thing as well then, in case others also decide to post later.