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 Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:47 pm
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[The Looney Bin] Melchior727 Where exactly did you pull that statistic? And who says we can't disprove the existence of these things? I don't think we can disprove it. Just like we can't disprove Dawkins's magic teapot floating in space on the exact opposite side of the sun, so we've never been able to see it, but because of "faith", we know that the teapot is there~
But at least the tea pot is conceivable, someone could have gotten in a space craft, traveled close to the sun and thrown it into orbit. We know tea pots exist and we know small things orbit around larger things.
God (at least the monotheistic god) is logically impossible, the teapot is just improbable. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:06 pm
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D i v i n i t y Yeah I like the arguments against God smile ESPECIALLY the omnipotence and omniscience one. It depends on someone's definition of "god". I mean one can define it as the Christian omnipotent AND omniscient god, but what if someone's definition of "God" was a simply a supreme being that created everything?
Well then you would have to define supreme, and you would have to explain how if God created everything, then what created God? Then what created that and etc.
Also, if God created everything (i.e., existence) then that means God is outside of existence, in other words supernatural and therefore subject to all the problems I pointed out above.
D i v i n i t y I honestly do not believe in this but I'm just saying... what if God weren't all powerful, weren't all knowing and weren't benevolent. What if God didn't give a s**t? Well of course this still doesn't discredit a lot of attributes like God being eternal...
Well the more attributes you take away from God the less "godly" it becomes, which destroys the point. If gods were just super-powerful, super-smart beings that were superior to us in every way, we would just be talking about aliens that are more advanced on the evolutionary ladder than us.
The concept of very powerful is not subject to the same problems as all-powerful.
D i v i n i t y I don't even understand the point in asserting God as an explanation to questions we can't answer. That's why I'm not a theist.
I suppose it made sense when we had little understanding of the world. I like Dawkin's explanation, if you saw the sun rise and didn't know anything about astronomy or what you were taught about the solar system in school... you probably would think it was this giant magical and perhaps conscious spherical fire creature.
These superstitious explanations are no longer necessary today... but they just won't go away for some reason, they only become more and more vague (notice gods aren't anthropomorphic anymore).
D i v i n i t y What if God were not subject to how we perceive logic because God transcends logic? It sounds pretty absurd, I know Lol, but I'm just curious as to how someone would approach this question if asked. I'm expecting "What? Nothing can 'transcend' logic" but is there any other answer? smile
Well that would end the debate right there wouldn't it? lol
Claiming God is supernatural already causes problems, if God is not subject to the laws of nature then you can't use the laws of nature to demonstrate the impossibility of his existence. Our only resort is to demonstrate how it's impossible (or at the very least, meaningless) for something to exist "outside of nature."
Problem is in order to use that argument... or any argument ever you need to use logic, so if God "transcends logic"... that's it, game over. lol
But if a theist did that to me I would just use if for all my other arguments against him:
Theist: Evolution can't be true, it has too many holes in it, just look at...
Me: Are you going to use a logical argument?
Theist: Huh?
Me: I'm asking if this argument will involve the use of logic?
Theist: I guess
Me: Well you can't, because evolution transcends logic.
Theist: ??? |
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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:34 pm
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Melchior727 D i v i n i t y Yeah I like the arguments against God smile ESPECIALLY the omnipotence and omniscience one. It depends on someone's definition of "god". I mean one can define it as the Christian omnipotent AND omniscient god, but what if someone's definition of "God" was a simply a supreme being that created everything? Well then you would have to define supreme, and you would have to explain how if God created everything, then what created God? Then what created that and etc. Also, if God created everything (i.e., existence) then that means God is outside of existence, in other words supernatural and therefore subject to all the problems I pointed out above. D i v i n i t y I honestly do not believe in this but I'm just saying... what if God weren't all powerful, weren't all knowing and weren't benevolent. What if God didn't give a s**t? Well of course this still doesn't discredit a lot of attributes like God being eternal... Well the more attributes you take away from God the less "godly" it becomes, which destroys the point. If gods were just super-powerful, super-smart beings that were superior to us in every way, we would just be talking about aliens that are more advanced on the evolutionary ladder than us. The concept of very powerful is not subject to the same problems as all-powerful. D i v i n i t y I don't even understand the point in asserting God as an explanation to questions we can't answer. That's why I'm not a theist. I suppose it made sense when we had little understanding of the world. I like Dawkin's explanation, if you saw the sun rise and didn't know anything about astronomy or what you were taught about the solar system in school... you probably would think it was this giant magical and perhaps conscious spherical fire creature. These superstitious explanations are no longer necessary today... but they just won't go away for some reason, they only become more and more vague (notice gods aren't anthropomorphic anymore). D i v i n i t y What if God were not subject to how we perceive logic because God transcends logic? It sounds pretty absurd, I know Lol, but I'm just curious as to how someone would approach this question if asked. I'm expecting "What? Nothing can 'transcend' logic" but is there any other answer? smile Well that would end the debate right there wouldn't it? lol Claiming God is supernatural already causes problems, if God is not subject to the laws of nature then you can't use the laws of nature to demonstrate the impossibility of his existence. Our only resort is to demonstrate how it's impossible (or at the very least, meaningless) for something to exist "outside of nature." Problem is in order to use that argument... or any argument ever you need to use logic, so if God "transcends logic"... that's it, game over. lol But if a theist did that to me I would just use if for all my other arguments against him: Theist: Evolution can't be true, it has too many holes in it, just look at... Me: Are you going to use a logical argument? Theist: Huh? Me: I'm asking if this argument will involve the use of logic?Theist: I guess Me: Well you can't, because evolution transcends logic. Theist: ???
That's quite a lot of responses o.o
I appreciate it smile
Yeah I understand the point you made about "Who created God"
Lol if God is "outside of existence" yeah I don't understand how someone could transcend existence yet still exist o_O
Well I know there's a big issue with omniscience and omnipotence when they're together. I mean the idea of "God" doesn't necessarily have to imply omniscience right? I mean God could be able to do anything, yet not KNOW ahead of time what he were going to do right? I don't even know if I made any sense... is it possible to be all-powerful yet still NOT know anything and everything? Really, someone tell me lol o.O
I like your response to me saying "God transcends logic" haha.
I can understand where you originally came from with your statement on knowing that God doesn't exist and that God is "disprovable."
It all depends by what standards we use to disprove something, in my opinion. I mean... can some really annoying theist just say "It's simply beyond our comprehension"? I think they might... pretty annoying but I've heard it been used. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:35 pm
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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:44 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:54 am
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Rusty Conscience I hate it when people say that they know the truth about something that nobody can prove.
Why? I put forward forward an argument, why don't you test it? Why do you hate it when someone is confident in their position?
I finished George H. Smith's book, I highly recommend it for anyone.
This one is next on my reading list: God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist by Victor J. Stenger.
Rusty Conscience I never claim to KNOW anything religiously. God could exist...I just don't believe in it at the time. If Jesus came falling out of the sky shooting God's rays of light and goodness into the air, however, I would quickly change my mind once I've verified that the bearded guy is legit.
Well it's not a religious claim, whenever religion claims to know anything, or whether anyone claims to know anything about the phsyical world, it is always a scientific claim.
If that scenario happened to me I would check into a mental hospital and checked to see if I was having hallucinations before I surrendered my rationality.
Rusty Conscience People need to observe the world around them and take everything into consideration...otherwise, you can't possibly fully believe in what you do.
You don't think I'm doing that? You seem to have a contradiction here, can you believe something 100% or not? |
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:12 am
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First off, its been a long a** time since I posted in this guild and other's I'm a part of. And just as a reminder so as not to confuse people here, yes I am christian. Probably one of the rare few in here. And for new comers that came in after me, I'm not here to push my beliefs as I have stated before, I'm just here to be a smoothing agent for lack of better words. That and I also enjoy logical and or illogical debates. With that in mind...onward!
I don't know how it could be impossible for god to be both omniscient and omnipotent. I liked a lot of what was explained about the two terms on wikipedia. Because sometimes each of us have our own definition for a "word".
Quote: Meanings of omnipotence Between people of different faiths, or indeed even between people of the same faith, the term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following: 1. God is able to do anything that is logically possible for God to do[1]. 2. God is able to do anything that God chooses to do[2]. 3. God is able to do anything that is in accord with His own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of God's nature that what God speaks is truth, then God is not able to lie). 4. Hold that it is part of God's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for God to go against His own laws unless there was a reason to do so.[3] 5. God is able to do anything that corresponds with his omniscience and therefore with his worldplan 6. God is able to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible. This view was held by Descartes.[4] Under many philosophical definitions of the term "God", senses 2, 3 and 4 can be shown to be equivalent. However, on all understandings of Omnipotence, it is generally held that God is able to intervene in the world by superseding the laws of physics, since they are not part of his nature, but the principles on which he has created the physical world. However many modern scholars (such as John Polkinghorne) hold that it is part of God's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for God to go against His own laws unless there were an overwhelming reason to do so.[3]
I found that rather interesting and kinda breaks down what I'm already thinking. Mankind has limits though to how we perceive things and how we define things. For instance, time....we make it a physical thing and can measure it by mankind measures, but it doesn't exist. I guess this is more of a religious based belief though. God exists "eternally" and for something to be eternal it can't be limited by time. I think the bottom line I'm trying to say (sorry I'm bad with words) is that just because we create some type of scientific law or law of nature, doesn't mean God is confined to it. (Its 2am, excuse me if I end up contradicting myself. Just kinda spurting out what I'm thinking as I type) @_@
Quote: Omniscience (IPA: /ɒm'nɪsɪəns/)[1] (or Omniscient Point-of-View in writing) is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc.
By "christian logic" is what I like to call it for lack of better words, technically speaking, if God has the ability to do ANYTHING then, I don't see why he can't infinitely know the decisions he'll make and the ramifications of it, and still not be able to change his mind. Let me see if I can define it by an example. I have a choice of writing with two pens. One is blue and one is green. I KNOW that if I choose to write with the green pen, the writing will be in green. And I ALSO know that if I choose the blue pen, the writing will be in blue. Ergo, I know the ramifications of my decisions ahead of time, but I still have the ability to choose which pen I want to write with. And if I start writing with the blue pen, I still have the ability to stop, change my mind, and write with the green pen, knowing full well of the result of choosing either pen to write with. Sorry if this seems like a retarded example. O_o....lol oi random spurts of thoughts=good times.
Also....it doesn't contradict God's will because his will is unlimited. HOWEVER.....OUR will is not free. We have a limited will, but not all choices can be made by ourselves. For instance, I can't choose to be created and I also can't choose to be not created. Religiously speaking here, I can't choose the exact time of death that God has SET for me, but I CAN shorten it by suicide. Ugh I think I'm done for now. Feel free to toss in your comments as I'm always curious to hear them. heart
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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:13 pm
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In response to SaintChaos:
Stolen from an essay of mine:
"Also, the fact that God is eternal is amazingly difficult to understand completely. How can something live forever? One might argue that God simply exists outside the realm of time and is therefore not subject to the limitations of time, but that is absurd. What is “time” really? Nothing can exist “outside the realm of time.” Time is an intangible concept that cannot simply be transcended. The only way something could transcend time is if it were unchanging; it could not move, act, think, etc. Think about it like this: If nothing changed and everything stayed unchanging, would there be any means to measure “time”? If everything in the universe stopped moving, if everyone and everything stopped moving, acting, or even thinking, how could time be measured? The only rational conclusion to God existing outside the realm of time is if God were unchanging; therefore, God would not be able to act, move, think, or do anything for that matter. If God cannot do any of these then God cannot do anything. God might as well not exist because it’s almost interchangeable with not existing at all."
Also, I'd like to address the issue of omnipotence and omniscience. God might KNOW that he will clap his hands in exactly 10 minutes but he cannot stop himself. The issue isn't about him KNOWING that he will do it; the problem is that, no matter what, God cannot stop himself from clapping his hands in exactly 10 minutes. If he can, then his "infinite knowledge" isn't so infinite. Yes, you can very well change the color of pen you are going to use, but the difference between you and God is that you are not omniscient.
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Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:16 am
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D i v i n i t y In response to SaintChaos: Stolen from an essay of mine: "Also, the fact that God is eternal is amazingly difficult to understand completely. How can something live forever? One might argue that God simply exists outside the realm of time and is therefore not subject to the limitations of time, but that is absurd. What is “time” really? Nothing can exist “outside the realm of time.” Time is an intangible concept that cannot simply be transcended. The only way something could transcend time is if it were unchanging; it could not move, act, think, etc. Think about it like this: If nothing changed and everything stayed unchanging, would there be any means to measure “time”? If everything in the universe stopped moving, if everyone and everything stopped moving, acting, or even thinking, how could time be measured? The only rational conclusion to God existing outside the realm of time is if God were unchanging; therefore, God would not be able to act, move, think, or do anything for that matter. If God cannot do any of these then God cannot do anything. God might as well not exist because it’s almost interchangeable with not existing at all." Also, I'd like to address the issue of omnipotence and omniscience. God might KNOW that he will clap his hands in exactly 10 minutes but he cannot stop himself. The issue isn't about him KNOWING that he will do it; the problem is that, no matter what, God cannot stop himself from clapping his hands in exactly 10 minutes. If he can, then his "infinite knowledge" isn't so infinite. Yes, you can very well change the color of pen you are going to use, but the difference between you and God is that you are not omniscient.
Hmmm...you make some interesting points. I guess I find it a great discussion if nothing else, but personally I don't think I really believe in "time" itself. I only see it as something that mankind actively needs and uses, but something that God doesn't need to abide to. Although...he created "day" and "night" and i think the bible even speaks of hours and what not. Unless he created it for us to use as a means of keeping us sane haha. *shrugs* But that's just my personal view on it. I could be dead wrong though lol And with the whole omniscience and omnipotence....eh...it makes sense to me honestly. I'm bad with words so I don't know how to explain it in a way that can be understood by others. xp You do have very valid points though, and I will admit its hard to argue against it haha. Oh well. But yeah thanks for inputting back. I love reading this kind of stuff from others. |
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