[Discussion] Free guilds?

[HexVentriloquist]

In my opinion, Free guilds is a big no no. :]
Doing this would take up server space with guilds made by newbies to Gaia. Which would most likely be left to die within a month anyhow.  

[St._Jimmy]

WindowOpener

My gut reaction to the idea of guilds being free is "They can't do that! It will destroy the guild economy!"

But my gut reaction to that is, "What economy?"

Free guilds would definitely change the landscape of the GGN, but I think overall it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. The idea has a pleasing, egalitarian feel about it, no?

While we're at it, let's make subforums free, like any other administrative feature. And let's make mass PMs... end of sentence. heart

Window, Window, Window, you dissapoint me. xD.

Free guilds should be a BIG NO. People who have spent money on guilds to get them would complain, some people have guilds they need to sell to make some of there lost money back. ((I have about 20 myself gonk ))  

[WindowOpener]

St._Jimmy

Window, Window, Window, you dissapoint me. xD.

Free guilds should be a BIG NO. People who have spent money on guilds to get them would complain, some people have guilds they need to sell to make some of there lost money back. ((I have about 20 myself gonk ))

XD

First thing I want to say is - yes, 20 is a lot of guilds. But we've already talked about how the guild economy has fallen through the floor. How much are those guilds likely to be worth, in total? I don't mean, 'what would they have been worth back in the day?' I mean, what would you actually expect to receive for them now?

For the past 12-18 months, even before Clans, guild traders seemed to be pulling huge random numbers out of the air when it came to low-ID guilds. But they were starting to the wall with that one because the ID is increasingly irrelevant in a registry of tens of thousands of guilds - and the low ID seemed to be the last possible thing on which guild traders could pretend any real value rested.

This trend will continue because the registry is growing, and new search functionality is being introduced. In fact, the sole benefit of a low guild ID (unless you count the psychological self-satisfaction at owning an old guild) is derived from the supposition that it plays a part in getting your guild ranked on the first page of the registry. There won't be just one all-important list on the new GGN landing page, so any concrete value in IDs will evaporate.

Another important lesson for long-time guild traders will be that a guild is only worth what people will pay for it. One day - maybe next month or next year or in five years, but eventually - if guild traders don't keep up, they will find themselves trying to sell a guild to a prospective buyer (who they think is a noob) by saying "Seriously, this guild is worth 5m gold because it's ID number is under 1000" and the person will just call them an idiot. Personally I think that day is pretty much tomorrow. Nobody is going to believe that this guild, which is practically identical to one I could buy new for 20k or second-hand for under 5k, is worth anything more than that just because its URL is a couple of characters shorter.

Of course, it would depend how they made the change. What if guilds became free, while a number of features were introduced that required guild funds. These could include high novel expansions, such as the Halls idea and even new internal Clans (hypothetically!) to the value of, say, 20k?

A guild 'shell' would be free but ones that have been fitted out with extensions and things become as resellable as always (at least the gold in the guild account becomes a relevant consideration in the buying process again).

The guild economy could probably be preserved in some capacity with the right planning.

But it would have to change. Even you Jimmy couldn't say it's in fine shape - it would require a different approach to what we've had before. The old economy was hacked to death by rampant inflation the Gaia economy and the uncanny stability in the guild market - where everything was worth 20k until a few creative individuals came along and decided to make up a few new rules that lasted a year or two, but are now forcibly ending their run.

Personally, I have a small handful of guilds that I bought a while ago, partly as investment (ha!) and partly in case I ever got around to using them for myself. But I know they're worth next to nothing financially. I wouldn't have a problem with the admins making that a literal fact as well as a practical one. ^^  

[St._Jimmy]

WindowOpener

St._Jimmy

Window, Window, Window, you dissapoint me. xD.

Free guilds should be a BIG NO. People who have spent money on guilds to get them would complain, some people have guilds they need to sell to make some of there lost money back. ((I have about 20 myself gonk ))

XD

First thing I want to say is - yes, 20 is a lot of guilds. But we've already talked about how the guild economy has fallen through the floor. How much are those guilds likely to be worth, in total? I don't mean, 'what would they have been worth back in the day?' I mean, what would you actually expect to receive for them now?

For the past 12-18 months, even before Clans, guild traders seemed to be pulling huge random numbers out of the air when it came to low-ID guilds. But they were starting to the wall with that one because the ID is increasingly irrelevant in a registry of tens of thousands of guilds - and the low ID seemed to be the last possible thing on which guild traders could pretend any real value rested.

This trend will continue because the registry is growing, and new search functionality is being introduced. In fact, the sole benefit of a low guild ID (unless you count the psychological self-satisfaction at owning an old guild) is derived from the supposition that it plays a part in getting your guild ranked on the first page of the registry. There won't be just one all-important list on the new GGN landing page, so any concrete value in IDs will evaporate.

Another important lesson for long-time guild traders will be that a guild is only worth what people will pay for it. One day - maybe next month or next year or in five years, but eventually - if guild traders don't keep up, they will find themselves trying to sell a guild to a prospective buyer (who they think is a noob) by saying "Seriously, this guild is worth 5m gold because it's ID number is under 1000" and the person will just call them an idiot. Personally I think that day is pretty much tomorrow. Nobody is going to believe that this guild, which is practically identical to one I could buy new for 20k or second-hand for under 5k, is worth anything more than that just because its URL is a couple of characters shorter.

Of course, it would depend how they made the change. What if guilds became free, while a number of features were introduced that required guild funds. These could include high novel expansions, such as the Halls idea and even new internal Clans (hypothetically!) to the value of, say, 20k?

A guild 'shell' would be free but ones that have been fitted out with extensions and things become as resellable as always (at least the gold in the guild account becomes a relevant consideration in the buying process again).

The guild economy could probably be preserved in some capacity with the right planning.

But it would have to change. Even you Jimmy couldn't say it's in fine shape - it would require a different approach to what we've had before. The old economy was hacked to death by rampant inflation the Gaia economy and the uncanny stability in the guild market - where everything was worth 20k until a few creative individuals came along and decided to make up a few new rules that lasted a year or two, but are now forcibly ending their run.

Personally, I have a small handful of guilds that I bought a while ago, partly as investment (ha!) and partly in case I ever got around to using them for myself. But I know they're worth next to nothing financially. I wouldn't have a problem with the admins making that a literal fact as well as a practical one. ^^

Well, I have been having a hard time selling them for 12k each, and I know back in the day I could have got 20k+ for them. crying . But I think if you took time, you could push for 15k depending on the number of subs.

Low ID guilds, there value came from the ability of pride and bragging rights. To a regular guild trader (as if there are any real ones left) ID would still serve as a price determination, but only when dealing with 2-10k increase. I think that the only people a low ID is worth anything to these days, is to someone who is kinde of a collector or old time trader.

I think the IDs value has already evaporated, unless you try to sell to someone from the past, and there are very few of us left out there.

I think the idea of a guild with beow 1k ID not meaning anything to anybody but a few people started before I left gaia 7 months ago.

I see what your saying with your idea about the free shell but having to pay for extras, and that MIGHT be able to spark a little tad bit of life back into the guild market. If that was to happen, then I would not argue with the fact about guild shells being free. If they came out with features t]like that before making the guild shells free, I might even support it.

Yes I agree, a new approach would be needed to restoring value in guilds because if we tried bringing it back like it was braught about in the first place, it will either 1) not work, or 2) start the cycle all over again with the ending result being what we are in right now.

As for your small handful of guilds, if you have any low IDs I might be willing to pry some away from you with a certain price. wink  

[St._Jimmy]

WindowOpener

I hadn't thought of that logistical point. The easiest thing, besides doing nothing, would be to give 20k to each guild captain. But there are a lot of issues that could come from that, like deactivated guilds, guild hoarders who acquired many guilds for far less than 20k, guilds with low IDs that may have been acquired for much more, and captains who 'inherited' their guilds from previous leaders.

Most people would not be worse off - every guild was acquired at some point, for an agreed price, usually 20k or below.

Maybe a greater issue is that there are currently over 51,000 guilds in the registry, which means this kind of action would inject over a billion gold into the economy.

Maybe doing nothing is the easiest thing: deny that current captains are entitled to any compensation because they all agreed to what they paid for their guilds at some point. For most of them today it was probably free. Besides, part of the rationale is that 20k isn't what it used to be. It's half the price of a Sealed Envelope ( crying ). Sealeds were worth barely 2-3k when the guild cost was established.

By that measurement, shouldn't guilds be worth around 400k?

They're one of the few Gaia assets to be exempt from inflation, insofar as you can still buy them for their original price. Unexpectedly, they are also one of the few assets on Gaia where each one can be distinguished by an ID number, which means those guilds that were purchased when 20k was 'more' are probably easily worth over 400k today.

What would be the effect of making guilds free on these older guilds? Would their value drop marginally, or completely, or not at all?

This whole idea might be far simpler to consider without unique guilds.

In fact, guild IDs owe part of their value to their supposed connection with higher registry placement.

No matter how good that old top secret formula for determining registry positioning is, there's no way it can be considered fair today for the tens of thousands of guilds who are not on the first page. Actually, on that note it's a good thing that registry adjustments are amongst the first things in the update.

If we move towards better searching, and guild IDs become less relevant, and therefore less valuable, all guilds might start to be worth roughly the same amount in terms of gold again.

That would be nice.

Then, we could feasibly abolish the cost. If captains feel they are being ripped off, at least they are all being ripped off equally, by 20 measly thousand gold.

Alternatively, we can jack the price up to 400k. Seriously!

I know there are thousands of store items that never need their prices adjusted, but the cost of a guild was always intended to be high to encourage collaboration. And whatever detriments came from the implementation of the Vice Captain feature, it was intended to cater for the spirit of teamwork in guilds that was alive at the time.

But we've long since entered the era where any one person can easily afford multiple new guilds on their own (but probably wouldn't need to bother, with such low prices in the second-hand guilds market - not to mention the paradox that second-hand guilds are inherently more valuable than new ones due to their lower IDs, as long as they aren't spoiled by undeleteable subforums).

Is it time to go back to almost enforcing teamwork in establishing guilds? There is an argument that it actually helped guilds start with firm foundations and partnerships, and this led to longer-lasting communities, in contrast to the bubble of questions about 'how can I get my members to post?' that arose in the CG at some point and never went away.

Or are we well past that time now, and we may as well go all the way by making guilds free? Free-market capitalism! Free guilds for anyone who wants one. Most may expectedly fail, but the top ones 'improve' from increased competition (do guilds really compete?) and the real winners are members and prospective ones.

I think there are more then 100k guilds in the registry now Window. sweatdrop

What do you mean by "Is it time to go back to almost enforcing teamwork in establishing guilds?" Can you explain that statement to me a little more clearly please.

I would not minde guilds being jacked up to 400k, means huge profits for me. xp  

[GamesTesterJan]

I support Jimmys side of this debate. I oppose free clans because they are susceptible to abuse for example the 2nd ranking clan which I will not name drop created the clan instead of a guild because it did not have a set up fee!

My jaw dropped when I read the owner post this on a comment. The clan is basically a vampire roleplay guild and twilight movie fanbase and this is blatant abuse of the clans system so this is a prime example of why guilds maybe suffering from a slow down on trading.

The other issue which I would like to address is 20k in the past was quite a lot I know because I am an 04 user today with the aquarium, fauzy flute or zOMG I can easy earn 20k in 3 days without vending and lets mention zOMG. It is the best passive way to earn gold from monster drops but you can acquire recipes or items which sell for a decent value.


I believe clans need a set up fee and so do guilds, if anything the set up fee should be increased to around 40k+ maybe even as much as 60k+ it is a moderate amount of gold otherwise people can easily afford 20k to make a new guild and it is quicker then negotiating with someone to buy an old one. If the price of guild and clan set up fee was 60k it would surely encourage users to recycle/re-use or buy older guilds and it could reduce the amount of inactive guilds especially clans which exist today.

 

[WindowOpener]

St._Jimmy

I think there are more then 100k guilds in the registry now Window. sweatdrop

What do you mean by "Is it time to go back to almost enforcing teamwork in establishing guilds?" Can you explain that statement to me a little more clearly please.

I would not minde guilds being jacked up to 400k, means huge profits for me. xp

Really? How do you get that? I just did (number of guilds per page) x (number of pages) = 20 x 2639 = 52,780 appox. as of now. I realise that doesn't include guilds that are hidden from the registry, but I'd still expect the figure to be well shy of 100k for the time being, unless I'm missing something. Let me know ^^

By "Is it time to go back to almost enforcing teamwork in establishing guilds?" I was referring to the original value of the 20k price tag. This was a difficult sum to come up with by yourself, and would have taken a significant amount of time and effort to quest for. The idea was that instead of questing by yourself, you'd get together with some friends, pool your gold, and together you could afford a guild.

This meant that most guilds started were started by groups of friends who were staking their trust (and gold) in the process. "Enforced teamwork," as it were. A basis for a community was begun before the guild was bought (in contrast to the more common scenario now, where someone can buy a brand-new guild on a whim, tinker with it for a while or just sit on it, and maybe some time try to set it up nicely before eventually facing the challenge of setting the gears in motion with actual members).

It's possible to argue that the increasing ease with which users could purchase guilds by themselves was a factor in the climbing failure rate of guilds (plus it just plain meant more guilds were being created), which in turn contributed to the number of guilds resold, which helped push prices dooooowwwwnnnn. smile

Sorry, tangent. :XP: "Enforcing teamwork" again, in the same way as before, would basically mean a price change upwards to around 400k, or whatever the 2009 equivalent of 20k is, so that guilds are more affordable to groups of friends who pool their guild than slightly curious users with a spare 20k to play with.  

[WindowOpener]

St._Jimmy

As for your small handful of guilds, if you have any low IDs I might be willing to pry some away from you with a certain price. wink

Haha, not that low. whee Around 560s I think? There was another, but I think I gave it to someone. Or something. But I'd rather not sell just yet, it's nice having it sit there in case I want to one day run with a 'guild concept' from the other thread. whee If I decide to sell though you'll be the first to know!  

[St._Jimmy]

WindowOpener

St._Jimmy

I think there are more then 100k guilds in the registry now Window. sweatdrop

What do you mean by "Is it time to go back to almost enforcing teamwork in establishing guilds?" Can you explain that statement to me a little more clearly please.

I would not minde guilds being jacked up to 400k, means huge profits for me. xp

Really? How do you get that? I just did (number of guilds per page) x (number of pages) = 20 x 2639 = 52,780 appox. as of now. I realise that doesn't include guilds that are hidden from the registry, but I'd still expect the figure to be well shy of 100k for the time being, unless I'm missing something. Let me know ^^

By "Is it time to go back to almost enforcing teamwork in establishing guilds?" I was referring to the original value of the 20k price tag. This was a difficult sum to come up with by yourself, and would have taken a significant amount of time and effort to quest for. The idea was that instead of questing by yourself, you'd get together with some friends, pool your gold, and together you could afford a guild.

This meant that most guilds started were started by groups of friends who were staking their trust (and gold) in the process. "Enforced teamwork," as it were. A basis for a community was begun before the guild was bought (in contrast to the more common scenario now, where someone can buy a brand-new guild on a whim, tinker with it for a while or just sit on it, and maybe some time try to set it up nicely before eventually facing the challenge of setting the gears in motion with actual members).

It's possible to argue that the increasing ease with which users could purchase guilds by themselves was a factor in the climbing failure rate of guilds (plus it just plain meant more guilds were being created), which in turn contributed to the number of guilds resold, which helped push prices dooooowwwwnnnn. smile

Sorry, tangent. :XP: "Enforcing teamwork" again, in the same way as before, would basically mean a price change upwards to around 400k, or whatever the 2009 equivalent of 20k is, so that guilds are more affordable to groups of friends who pool their guild than slightly curious users with a spare 20k to play with.

hmm, I was checking again and your right, its not at 100k yet......I could have sworn I saw one in the 100k ID range when I was out looking to buy, must have missread the ID number, and it was 10000, not 100000. sweatdrop

Ahhh, I see what your saying about the teamwork. razz

I woul LOVE it is guild startup value was 400k. 3nodding  

[St._Jimmy]

WindowOpener

St._Jimmy

As for your small handful of guilds, if you have any low IDs I might be willing to pry some away from you with a certain price. wink

Haha, not that low. whee Around 560s I think? There was another, but I think I gave it to someone. Or something. But I'd rather not sell just yet, it's nice having it sit there in case I want to one day run with a 'guild concept' from the other thread. whee If I decide to sell though you'll be the first to know!

I would be interested in your 560's guild, let me know if you ever want to sell. 3nodding  

[Bearded Unicorn]

I think guild should continue to be 20k, so it won't have a guild overload. As gaians can join as many guilds as they want, imagine if they could create as many guilds as they wanted, paying NOTHING?

And at leas,t they could give access to the guilds back. So many people donate to the guild, without realizing the money can ONLY be used for sub forums.  

[IC510]

If Gaia do anything, they need to make Guilds more expensive. 20k is not the same as it was a few years ago 'cause more and more n00bs are buying Gold with their pocket money.

It would also help out with their inflation problems if they made Guilds more expensive, in addition to making Guilds less accessable to newer members who don't know much about running Guilds.

[I don't have a personal grudge with newbies, but should they get a Guild just beause they went out and bought a Gaia Cash Card?]