Removing "Under God" from the pledge

[Derrot]

[Satan]

Phaeton

I usually never said the pledge in school anyway. It'd piss off the teachers but I have the right not to say the pledge if I want to. They can't stop me.

My teachers (or at least, my homeroom teachers) always make me stand. rolleyes

I stand, but I don't recite the pledge. I usually mess with my collar on my left side so it looks like my hand is over my heart... but now I think I'll probably stop doing that, too. *didn't want the crazy teacher to go on one of her rants, which she usually does anyway* I'm not the only one. One of the recurring aforementioned rants my homeroom teacher gives is about how "we're disrespectful and unpatriotic" when we don't pledge.

Why are we pledging to the flag anyway? Now that is idol worshop!  

[Orichalcon]

Derrot

I stand, but I don't recite the pledge. I usually mess with my collar on my left side so it looks like my hand is over my heart... but now I think I'll probably stop doing that, too. *didn't want the crazy teacher to go on one of her rants, which she usually does anyway* I'm not the only one. One of the recurring aforementioned rants my homeroom teacher gives is about how "we're disrespectful and unpatriotic" when we don't pledge.

I just never stood. I stayed seated. Nothing ever happened to me because the teacher believed in my right to do so and two other kids, the anarchists, didn't do it either. I'm sure I got grouped in with them, and I am not pleased about that...

I don't agree with anarchy, despite my political affiliation. I only agree with 65-70% of the Libertarian doctrine, after all. which is why I spend most of my time here rather than the Libertarians guild. The sheer number of times the phrase "Socialist/Communist pig/idiot/a*****e" is used there daily is starting to make me sick.

Oh crap, I'm ranting... sweatdrop  

[S. Shark]

I stopped saying it in seventh grade, I believe. Always have to stand, though, or else my teachers b***h at me, and I'm to lazy to debate them on it. That, and my seventh grade teacher was ********' scary. ;__; I said the thing more than two-hundred times. If I haven't sufficiently pledged my loyalty by now, my nation is really mistrustful or more deaf than my grandpa.

So, yeah, I think it should be removed. Not like it's something I'd burn a flag over, but it should be.  

[Pistil]

hellpike

Up here in Canada, we have a similar pledge, but it is to the Queen, and all her successors thereof, or some odd crap like that. I don't think it mentions any partucular deity... however. This is still relevant.
In our national anthem, there is mention of said religios personage. As follows.

Quote:

O Canada
Blah, blah...
True patriot love,
In all thy son's command!

Now, I may be wrong in this assumption, but I think that refers to the "son of God", and not any mortal male child.

Quote:

God keep our land
Glorious and free
Blah, blah.

Well, now. This is exactly the point [Satan] made about your American Pledge of Allegience. Hmm. And thus the problem. I don't sing my national anthem very often, and that is exactly the reason. Whenever I do, I sing certain parts in French, so there is no real reference to something that I truly feel doesn't exist.

Ever since I first learned the anthem, I always sang "Sun" instead of "Son" and "Guard" instead of "God". Subtle differences, so no one notices if you're singing with at least one other person. And the meaning changes, and to me it makes more sense. (Maybe not the "Sun" part, but "Guard, keep our land glorious and free" definetly makes sense)  

[MightyHikaru]

I'm glad we don't have such thing as a pledge. The closest thing is that in a few schools, kids have to sing the national hymn, which has no reference whatsoever to God.

Cultural moment: did you know that Brazil has one of the most complicated hymns? eek  

[Orichalcon]

MightyHikaru

I'm glad we don't have such thing as a pledge. The closest thing is that in a few schools, kids have to sing the national hymn, which has no reference whatsoever to God.

Cultural moment: did you know that Brazil has one of the most complicated hymns? eek

we have a pledge that mentions god and an anthem thats about our flag, not our country. Ah, America rolleyes

I hope you know, after you said that I had to look it up. And I will never doubt you agian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hino_Nacional_Brasileiro

eek  

[[Satan]]

sybex Shark

I stopped saying it in seventh grade, I believe. Always have to stand, though, or else my teachers b***h at me, and I'm to lazy to debate them on it. That, and my seventh grade teacher was ********' scary. ;__; I said the thing more than two-hundred times. If I haven't sufficiently pledged my loyalty by now, my nation is really mistrustful or more deaf than my grandpa.

So, yeah, I think it should be removed. Not like it's something I'd burn a flag over, but it should be.

I don't see why teachers get so damn upset about not standing. You should be allowed to sit down if you want to. Sheesh, I wonder how many people have actually heard of the first amendment. rolleyes  

[Timo.exe]

"A person of integrity is expected to be believed, and when he's not he allows time to prove him right."
If you people have any integrity at all you'd stop complaining. Do you people have something to prove?
Patience: that's all you need.
A few weeks ago Mr. Sullivan brought up evolution. I don't think I was allowed to skip it, was I? I studied it, I learned it, and I regurgitated it. I didn't complain about it, I didn't feel the need to ''skip it'' or whine about it. I didn't think I should argue with those who believe solely in evolution. I really didn't see the reason. So why are you people pissing and moaning about two words?
It's like Caustic had said earlier, there's a few more things that should higher on our priorities.  

[caustic 0_0]

As I said before, I don't think there's much of an argument about whether or not 'Under God' is constitutional. It just isn't.
But, to elaborate on what Timo said, changing those words is not going to happen and is not going to effect any change until society is ready for that change. Forcing a change like that suddenly would cause more tension and slow any 'progress' that could happen. The progress dropping those words represents is the realization that you not only really do have religious freedom but that you are an equal american no matter what religion you do or do not profess. Dropping those words is symbolic of something bigger that dropping those words won't fix.  

[Dathu]

Timo89

"A person of integrity is expected to be believed, and when he's not he allows time to prove him right."
If you people have any integrity at all you'd stop complaining. Do you people have something to prove?
Patience: that's all you need.
A few weeks ago Mr. Sullivan brought up evolution. I don't think I was allowed to skip it, was I? I studied it, I learned it, and I regurgitated it. I didn't complain about it, I didn't feel the need to ''skip it'' or whine about it. I didn't think I should argue with those who believe solely in evolution. I really didn't see the reason. So why are you people pissing and moaning about two words?
It's like Caustic had said earlier, there's a few more things that should higher on our priorities.

First I'd like to say that I do feel that this issue is a drop in a bucket of religous problems and by no means is one of the most important. Now that that's out of the way, When you look at the issue alone it does have significant importance. I understand how you feel about evolution. However, there is no fundament law that states there should be a seperation of science and state. Evolution is just a scientific theory constructed from significant data. But unless scientists look up and see a giant god in the sky, the statement "under god" is nothing more than religious propaganda. A fundamental law of this government is that there should always be a seperation of church and state, and since this country is built of fifty states, the counrty shouldn't recognize religion. In order to protect all religions, no religoin should be favored. Especially in school. School is time of learning and children are very impressionable. Even something as insignificant and seemingly harmless can, subconsciously, affect a childs veiw of their own spirituality.

Furthermore, many historians feel that America is going through another religious revival (yay is me for living to see this day stare ), and the Christian Conservatives are pushing for more control and influence. There was a time when Atheists were winning battles against such politicians (removal of prayer in school), but we got lazy due to a resession of religious aggression (that rhymes). Now that we've laid dormant, the zealots are moving the line forward. Yesterday we let them have "under god" and today, in Kansas, they've taken "intelegent design." Who knows what they'll push for tomorrow. It is important that Atheists and Theists who believe in a speration of church and government to keep a watchful eye on those who would try push their beliefs, regardless of how subtly.
Are there bigger issues? Yes, but even a small battle can turn the dirrection of a war. Although I'm more concerned about gay marriage and abortion, I'm glad there is someone willing to fight the small fights.

I've been real ranty lately. redface  

[[Satan]]

Timo89

"A person of integrity is expected to be believed, and when he's not he allows time to prove him right."
If you people have any integrity at all you'd stop complaining. Do you people have something to prove?
Patience: that's all you need.
A few weeks ago Mr. Sullivan brought up evolution. I don't think I was allowed to skip it, was I? I studied it, I learned it, and I regurgitated it. I didn't complain about it, I didn't feel the need to ''skip it'' or whine about it. I didn't think I should argue with those who believe solely in evolution. I really didn't see the reason. So why are you people pissing and moaning about two words?
It's like Caustic had said earlier, there's a few more things that should higher on our priorities.

I do take the time to learn about Christianity, I just don't want to say that I live in a nation "Under God".  

[Timo.exe]

Dathu

Timo89

"A person of integrity is expected to be believed, and when he's not he allows time to prove him right."
If you people have any integrity at all you'd stop complaining. Do you people have something to prove?
Patience: that's all you need.
A few weeks ago Mr. Sullivan brought up evolution. I don't think I was allowed to skip it, was I? I studied it, I learned it, and I regurgitated it. I didn't complain about it, I didn't feel the need to ''skip it'' or whine about it. I didn't think I should argue with those who believe solely in evolution. I really didn't see the reason. So why are you people pissing and moaning about two words?
It's like Caustic had said earlier, there's a few more things that should higher on our priorities.

First I'd like to say that I do feel that this issue is a drop in a bucket of religous problems and by no means is one of the most important. Now that that's out of the way, When you look at the issue alone it does have significant importance. I understand how you feel about evolution. However, there is no fundament law that states there should be a seperation of science and state. Evolution is just a scientific theory constructed from significant data. But unless scientists look up and see a giant god in the sky, the statement "under god" is nothing more than religious propaganda. A fundamental law of this government is that there should always be a seperation of church and state, and since this country is built of fifty states, the counrty shouldn't recognize religion. In order to protect all religions, no religoin should be favored. Especially in school. School is time of learning and children are very impressionable. Even something as insignificant and seemingly harmless can, subconsciously, affect a childs veiw of their own spirituality.

Furthermore, many historians feel that America is going through another religious revival (yay is me for living to see this day stare ), and the Christian Conservatives are pushing for more control and influence. There was a time when Atheists were winning battles against such politicians (removal of prayer in school), but we got lazy due to a resession of religious aggression (that rhymes). Now that we've laid dormant, the zealots are moving the line forward. Yesterday we let them have "under god" and today, in Kansas, they've taken "intelegent design." Who knows what they'll push for tomorrow. It is important that Atheists and Theists who believe in a speration of church and government to keep a watchful eye on those who would try push their beliefs, regardless of how subtly.
Are there bigger issues? Yes, but even a small battle can turn the dirrection of a war. Although I'm more concerned about gay marriage and abortion, I'm glad there is someone willing to fight the small fights.

I've been real ranty lately. redface

And being ranty isn't bad at all. It's fun to compare and contrast view points, especially religion. It's not exactly a concrete topic, there's seems like there's alot more evidence for me than against me. That makes it somewhat more enjoyable. =D
--rant on own my faith--
I was talking with a friend of mine from school the other day. He's bisexual and I, honestly have no idea what is religion is, however we agree on many issues. We got on the topic of...I think he called them...funist...erm, fundist. Something to that extent. These are the people who think that the bible should be taken literally. That really upsets me. Really upsets me. It's hard to take a book with so many mistranslations literally. I don't see how anyone with a brainstem can take it literally. The Greek translation alone had...10,000? Maybe it was 1000...I need to read up on it, again. But that's not the point, the point is our English translation is from the Greek version. A butchered butchering of a good book. It's kinda like a 4kids TV show. XD
Well, these people are the people who go evangelistic, spreading a skewed version of the word. That's becoming quite common((anyone in the Fenton community will certainly notice))
These are the people I get upset with, atheists (or any other religion) aren't the real problem. Sure, I want you to enjoy what I do but before I can even look at people outside our faith I think we need to fix the problems within it.

Now you're view is a brilliant way for me to find a better view. You said that because it can't be seen, ''under god'' is a floppy establishment with no palpable proof. Evolution is my counter argument.
[!]The difference
---Evolution: a theory developed and constructed
-Palpable truths: Ever read Darwin’s study on the Galapagos Islands? Before he shaved off his beard, he spent years comparing turtles and birds on the island. In a nutshell, he's damn-near proven it.
---Christianity((bible)):A collaboration of book written by people who were influenced by God. People wrote about dreams, occurrences, and premonitions.
-Palpable truths: The writers existed. Jesus existed, and he did stuff. He gained a following. People wrote about him in Hebrew. People wrote things decades before about a person a lot like him.
[outcome]
This seems to be a truly one-side argument, making me have more fun with it.
Anyone with a brainstem and no bias would assume, from the nutshell descriptions that Evolution is the right idea.
Either way, I'm not going to try to disprove either of them right now. I'll save that for another time.
Crap, seems I've trailed off a bit. ^^;;  

[Sanguvixen]

subtleessence134

I merely stand at a military at-ease stance with my feet spread to shoulder length and both hands clasped behind my back. No one can get on my case for not showing due respect to what should be a symbol of freedom. However, the pledge itself annoys me... Requiring children to pledge their loyalty to their nation is something done in underdeveloped dictatorships, not the economic and self-proclaimed moral superpower that is The United States ofAmerica. At least, that's how i see it. There are some who would call the words "Under God" trivial. These also happen to be the same people who use God in normal conversation, who hear his name repeated every Sunday. For us who don't, however, those same two words become much more significant. Asking an Atheist to pledge his allegience to a "Nation Under God" is like asking a Christian to bow down before a statue of Sri Garuda. To a Hindu, it's something entirely unnoticable, a part of the routine; but to a Christian, it would be considered idol worship.

You actually stand? I don't.....I look at the act of standing in the same way I look at the act of reciting the pledge. They are the same.

People underestimate the power of a simple words on other people.

"Under God"....says who? I will not stand for a pledge that has that in it, and niether will I be apart of a group that has that in thier anthem...let me clarify the latter.

I once wanted to go to a pharmacy class in this place called V-Tech. My biggest problem?

In order to pass I had to do community service(some of which was in a church)....the even bigger problem is that they are in charge of the pledge in the morning. That means we take turns(the classmates).

That means that I would have to recite the thing with under god, because according to the adults, there is no alternative. I got myself out of that class quick.

People just think of it as a regular part of the day, but to me it is a bit of an insult.

People/children do get singled out for not reciting the pledge, and in some elementary and middle schools, I've encountered teachers who threaten to write up anyone who didn't stand and say the "Whole Pledge".

Why do they get away with it? The pupils are too young to understand thier rights, and stand up the intimidating teacher.

I don't like it....I don't like it at all.

Then you have the whole "Merry Christmas" saying that is causing debate. More than one little jewish child gets upset when the store person won't say Happy Hanukkah.

I've seen a women lead her child out, (the kid is in tears) he was crying because the man who bagged thier stuff didn't say Happy Hunukkah, and only sayed "Merry Christmas little fellah".

What gets me is: Who are the christians to tell others that thier version of the holiday is more important thier others?

How do you explain to a 5 or 6 year old that they don't say Happy Hannukah at most stores and resturants because the Christian Holiday is considered more important?

How do you explain to a small (and easily manipulated) kid that they have the right to tell the teacher they don't have to say the pledge?

In the same turn how do you explain to a young boy or a young girl that they can't join boy scouts, or girl scouts......because their parents are atheist...and the scout leaders don't want that mix in thier clan?

There are people who come into this country who feel minoritized by the little sayings that so many feel are fine.

More often than not it is the children who are too young to understand that the world is unfair who get their feelings hurt.

Remove "under god" from the pledge, and then no one will be offended. The religious nuts will complain...but oh well. They are the ones who go on and on about how Gays and Lesbians are ruining the sactionity of marraige...when marriage was never sacred to begin with, and for thousands of years have been for gain!

Say happy holidays, and no matter what the december holiday stands for, it doesn't lean towards one religion, and therefore will please all and offend no one.

Yes some Christian Zealots will complain as well. Are these not the same idiots who throw a hissy fit when two people divorce, and completely ignore the fact that the parents together are doing more damage than they ever will do apart.

Yes people might say "We're just causing trouble"....but guess what? It takes many small battles to win a war.

Religious corruption is like a many headed hydra, and when we slay one head, the next one grows back more evasive and deadly then the last.

 

[S. Shark]

[Satan]

sybex Shark

I stopped saying it in seventh grade, I believe. Always have to stand, though, or else my teachers b***h at me, and I'm to lazy to debate them on it. That, and my seventh grade teacher was ********' scary. ;__; I said the thing more than two-hundred times. If I haven't sufficiently pledged my loyalty by now, my nation is really mistrustful or more deaf than my grandpa.

So, yeah, I think it should be removed. Not like it's something I'd burn a flag over, but it should be.

I don't see why teachers get so damn upset about not standing. You should be allowed to sit down if you want to. Sheesh, I wonder how many people have actually heard of the first amendment. rolleyes

Eh, something about having to at least respect it. State-required respect (okay, teacher-required). I don't completely understand it, but I don't really mind, since it's just standing. It's not like I don't stand up even longer just waiting for food during lunch. Standing, sitting... eh. Now, if they made me stand on my head, salute, and hold my hands in a way similar to praying, then I'd be a bit more irritated about it.  

[Rune WolfHaven]

The "under God" part in the pledge is completely unconstitutional. The constitution says free rights to any religion, yet the pledge says that we pledge allegience to a country united under God, which (in my opinion) is forcing the religion on all who choose to say those too words in the pledge. Definitely something to get pissed about.