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 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:23 am
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Secular Swarm Daffodil the Destroyer 
The only thing we should be active about is getting theists to accept us as decent human beings, which includes advocating separation of church and state. But that's not "atheist activism" to me. Let the theists have their beliefs; they aren't hurting you, and trying to de-convert them is just as obnoxious as their attempts to convert us. Speaking as one who used to take a great comfort from having a religious belief, it was temporarily quite devastating for me to lose that faith, and it's terrible to act like it's our duty to go around putting others through that experience if they aren't ready for it.
Basically, the bottom line is that while you and I might not need religion, some people DO. They might need it to give their day to day life some meaning, or (though I hate to say it) they might even need it to keep them acting morally. Everyone is different, and one opinion of the supernatural does not fit all.
Also, re: the statistics - one can be both spiritual and atheistic. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
They're not hurting me? I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you, while individuals may not be hurting me or anyone else religion as a collective greatly hurts a lot of people. Look at all the homosexuals who are treated like s**t... gay marriage is still illegal most places in the USA and why do you think that is...? I'll assume you're smart enough not to deny that Christianity is one of the largest players in anti-homosexuality, but I really cannot understand your comment if you're aware of that. Here is a video that helps explain exactly how they aren't just hurting me but they're hurting all of us. Also, saying one can be both spiritual and atheistic depends on your definition of atheist which there are several definitions of.
rolleyes It's not the religious beliefs themselves that are discriminating against homosexuals. It's some of the people who are members of that religion. I know plenty of people who are Christian and have zero problem with homosexuals, homosexuality, or homosexual marriage, and even more who disagree with the notion of homosexuality, but believe that the government shouldn't restrict their right to marry. I don't need to waste my time watching any videos about it; I know what's going on and I've already seen these videos 100x over (they're all the same to me). I just don't see the need to box all Christians up in a little box marked "Bigoted Jerks Who Need To Be Mentally Reprogrammed" and I think that anybody who DOES think there's a need for that is just as bad as the more vocal Christian bigots.
Even though Christians are the largest anti-homosexual group out there, plenty of other people are uncomfortable with the idea of it for their own reasons which have little to no religious implications. Religion does give them an easy way to say "I'm against this," but they'd find another reason to dislike it if religion didn't exist. Besides, the verses in the Bible which are used most often to condemn homosexuality are fairly widely thought to be a mistranslation - there was no word for homosexuality when the Bible was written; it was a simplification of the original meaning (probably out of the desire to control people's behaviour) that originated the "Christian" belief that homosexuality is wrong. So maybe it's time to stop blaming the belief system for the way GLBTs are treated and start blaming the people who misuse their beliefs.
And no, it really doesn't depend on one's definition of atheist; "atheist" means "someone who lacks a belief in gods." There's only one definition; that's the beauty of the Greek root words. There are multiple types of atheism - hard/soft, implicit/explicit, etc - but not believing in deities is the only requirement for being an atheist. Not believing in spirituality or what have you is a personal matter.
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:56 am
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Daffodil the Destroyer Secular Swarm Daffodil the Destroyer
The only thing we should be active about is getting theists to accept us as decent human beings, which includes advocating separation of church and state. But that's not "atheist activism" to me. Let the theists have their beliefs; they aren't hurting you, and trying to de-convert them is just as obnoxious as their attempts to convert us. Speaking as one who used to take a great comfort from having a religious belief, it was temporarily quite devastating for me to lose that faith, and it's terrible to act like it's our duty to go around putting others through that experience if they aren't ready for it.
Basically, the bottom line is that while you and I might not need religion, some people DO. They might need it to give their day to day life some meaning, or (though I hate to say it) they might even need it to keep them acting morally. Everyone is different, and one opinion of the supernatural does not fit all.
Also, re: the statistics - one can be both spiritual and atheistic. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
They're not hurting me? I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you, while individuals may not be hurting me or anyone else religion as a collective greatly hurts a lot of people. Look at all the homosexuals who are treated like s**t... gay marriage is still illegal most places in the USA and why do you think that is...? I'll assume you're smart enough not to deny that Christianity is one of the largest players in anti-homosexuality, but I really cannot understand your comment if you're aware of that. Here is a video that helps explain exactly how they aren't just hurting me but they're hurting all of us. Also, saying one can be both spiritual and atheistic depends on your definition of atheist which there are several definitions of.
rolleyes It's not the religious beliefs themselves that are discriminating against homosexuals. It's some of the people who are members of that religion. I know plenty of people who are Christian and have zero problem with homosexuals, homosexuality, or homosexual marriage, and even more who disagree with the notion of homosexuality, but believe that the government shouldn't restrict their right to marry. I don't need to waste my time watching any videos about it; I know what's going on. I just don't see the need to box all Christians up in a little box marked "Bigoted Jerks Who Need To Be Mentally Reprogrammed" and I think that anybody who DOES think there's a need for that is just as bad as the more vocal Christian bigots.
And no, it really doesn't depend on one's definition of atheist; "atheist" means "someone who lacks a belief in gods." There's only one definition; that's the beauty of the Greek root words. There are multiple types of atheism - hard/soft, implicit/explicit, etc - but not believing in deities is the only requirement for being an atheist. Not believing in spirituality or what have you is a personal matter.
I'm sorry... but you're pretty wrong here.
Quote: I just don't see the need to box all Christians up in a little box marked "Bigoted Jerks Who Need To Be Mentally Reprogrammed" and I think that anybody who DOES think there's a need for that is just as bad as the more vocal Christian bigots.
Who was talking about doing that? Please refer to my quote...
Quote: while individuals may not be hurting me or anyone else religion as a collective greatly hurts a lot of people
As I stated "individuals may not be hurting me or anyone else" so I don't know why you're talking about clumping all Christians together because I certainly wasn't, my father is a Christian and is opening his own Christian book store and he's one of the nicest people I've ever met. So, even though you may not have been, I don't appreciate what seemed to be an implication I was doing that.
Quote: It's not the religious beliefs themselves that are discriminating against homosexuals. It's some of the people who are members of that religion. I know plenty of people who are Christian and have zero problem with homosexuals, homosexuality, or homosexual marriage, and even more who disagree with the notion of homosexuality, but believe that the government shouldn't restrict their right to marry.
Not the religious beliefs themselves that are discriminating against homosexuals? Seems like you haven't been reading your bible...
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
I think there are more but those are ones I just quickly grabbed off another site.
Now, not all Christians are anti-homosexuality but the bible certainly is.
Quote: And no, it really doesn't depend on one's definition of atheist; "atheist" means "someone who lacks a belief in gods." There's only one definition; that's the beauty of the Greek root words. There are multiple types of atheism - hard/soft, implicit/explicit, etc - but not believing in deities is the only requirement for being an atheist. Not believing in spirituality or what have you is a personal matter.
That's fair, but "atheism" is often used to be associated with secularist views. Now while that certainly may not be the proper definition its still a common usage of the word which rolls into what you said about "hard/soft, implicit/explicit, etc" |
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:59 am
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:02 am
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:12 am
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:18 am
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:16 am
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Daffodil the Destroyer Secular Swarm On another note... the video is about the many ways in which religion negatively influences society and is causing harm. I sent you the video because you said they weren't hurting me... which the video does a great job of explaining how that statement is completely false.
Oh damn it, I swear to myself that I'm going to get out of a discussion and yet I never manage to make a clean break. XD
I've seen your video, and many others like it. And it does not prove my opinion to be false at all. The religion itself did not create those blue laws. The religion itself did not write unconstitutional clauses banning atheists from public office. The religion itself did not outlaw homosexual marriage. An idea, a belief, cannot do those things! As I stated before, it is the people who use their religion as an excuse to control other people that do those things. The religion doesn't need to be eradicated; the abuse of it does. Also, for the record, I don't see how one can opine that Christianity should be eradicated without simultaneously implying that Christians need to be mentally reprogrammed. The two kind of go hand in hand.
I don't think this is a matter of education on the issues, it's a simple difference in opinion.
Methinks someone might've been paying a lil' too much attention to Mister Dawkins... I agree with him on a lot of points, but I disagreed on this one the first time I heard it.
No... religion cannot do those things... but religion can be and is the motivation to do those things. Pretty much all actions have motivations behind them, the belief that people's religions promote are often the motivation. So yes, it is the religion that causes those things. I'm not saying the individuals aren't at fault, but the individuals are acting due to an ignorant following of religious beliefs.
Quote: As I stated before, it is the people who use their religion as an excuse to control other people that do those things.
Not all people just use religion as an excuse, I don't doubt for a second that the religion itself (the views stated in the religion) are in fact the motivator for people to do those things or they were raised that way because of their parents religious beliefs etc. Although of course its not always the fault of religion and people do sometimes use religion as an excuse, rather than it actually being the reason.
I guess I'm just having trouble understanding the point you're trying to make. You said "An idea, a belief, cannot do those things!" which I have to respectfully disagree with while still attempting to understand what you're saying.
Here's an analogy... if you believe that wearing a blue tie to a job interview will increase your chances of getting the job then you will probably wear the blue tie. So yeah, the belief didn't MAKE you wear the blue tie but it was still the reason you did.
Also...
Quote: I don't see how one can opine that Christianity should be eradicated without simultaneously implying that Christians need to be mentally reprogrammed
I believe everyone should have the right to believe whatever they want but that doesn't mean I think they should believe it.
I am against Christianity and religion in general, I think it is quite clearly bad for society, but that doesn't mean I don't think people should have the right to believe it.
Do I think they are incorrectly programmed? Yes, I do
Do I think they should be sent to camps to be reprogrammed? No, I don't
When I talk about being an "Atheist Activist" I'm talking about advocating Atheism to help spread it quicker, I'm not talking about hating Christians... again, (I think I said this already) my father is a Christian he is working on a business plan to open his own Christian bookstore. My father and I get along incredibly well, he knows all about my being an Atheist and the website I'm working on. I have a great amount of respect for my father, he is well educated (he has his master's in political science and minored in history) and I discuss religion with him often. My old pastor I absolutely love too, great guy, we both love Hawaiian shirts.
I don't hate Christians, I am not against Christians individually, I am against Christianity as a whole because of the negative impact it is having on society.
Quote: I don't think this is a matter of education on the issues, it's a simple difference in opinion.
Well if the difference in opinion is that the actions that are the result of the belief in Christianity aren't the fault of Christianity because Christianity isn't actually an action... even though it promotes the belief that is the motivation for the action... then yes, agreed, it is just a difference of opinion.
Quote: Methinks someone might've been paying a lil' too much attention to Mister Dawkins... I agree with him on a lot of points, but I disagreed on this one the first time I heard it.
This has nothing to do with Dawkins... I was an Atheist well before I ever read or watched anything to do with Dawkins, this point was not spawned from anything Dawkins has said. Its generally an accepted fact that beliefs effect your actions and that people are "religiously motivated" to do things. |
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Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:08 pm
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