Do You Think That Obama is Legally President?

[Rainbowfied Mouse]

Latopazora

being a constitutionalist, I think it should remain as is.

So, I assume, being a constitutionalist, you also accept the idea of amendments, which was part of the constitution?

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The Presidential office is the highest office, so only someone who is national born should be allowed to hold that office.

It's actually not the highest, it's one of three high positions.

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Its not like we're keeping people who are foreign-born from holding powerful positions.

You just claimed it was "the highest" position, so yes, yes we are holding them.

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Someone whose from S. America, Africa, Europe... etc. would be better off bring their experiences to the House of Rep. and the Senate. The President only has the power to execute and assign people to the Supreme Court and Cabinet.

So you're saying someone from another continent wouldn't have the ability to run our country, even though are constitution is studied worldwide by many countries?  

[Latopazora]

Rainbowfied Mouse

Latopazora

being a constitutionalist, I think it should remain as is.

So, I assume, being a constitutionalist, you also accept the idea of amendments, which was part of the constitution?

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The Presidential office is the highest office, so only someone who is national born should be allowed to hold that office.

It's actually not the highest, it's one of three high positions.

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Its not like we're keeping people who are foreign-born from holding powerful positions.

You just claimed it was "the highest" position, so yes, yes we are holding them.

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Someone whose from S. America, Africa, Europe... etc. would be better off bring their experiences to the House of Rep. and the Senate. The President only has the power to execute and assign people to the Supreme Court and Cabinet.

So you're saying someone from another continent wouldn't have the ability to run our country, even though are constitution is studied worldwide by many countries?

Are you saying we should change the constitution? Because that is what's required for a foreign born to become U.S. President. And you won't find the requirements for U.S. President in the amendments, you'll find it in Article 2. And God help us if the powers that be feel that they have the power to completely change the Constitution around. So, yes, I do believe in the amendments, but we're not talking about the amendments, are we? We're talking about if foreign borns should be allowed to be U.S. President, well not according to the Constitution- and I don't feel the Constitution aught to be screwed around with.
So, no, foreign born should not be President of the U.S.A. The founding fathers needed a solid document with clear instruction.

I don't know if Obama is eligible to be President, but I'm giving him the shadow of a doubt and I will judge him based on his actions in office.  

[Lord Bitememan]

The idea behind it in Jay's mind was that the commander in chief ought to have unflappable loyalty to the US. Birth, in my experience, is a poor measure of that. I have friends who've immigrated to the states whom I would trust to be far more loyal and devoted leaders of this nation than some of the natural born folks I've seen float out of places like San Fransisco.  

[Latopazora]

I have no doubt that immigrants could have total loyalty to this country, more so than those who are national born, and I'm sure that point came up when they were writing the constitution. But they decided to put that requirement in there. And I just don't feel right about allowing Congress, President or Supreme Court to change the constitution in any way other than amendments.  

[Lord Bitememan]

Well, nobody is saying we should change it without a constitutional amendment. You would need one since the definitions of "natural born" and "naturalized" are different. I'm suggesting that we should amend the Constitution to reflect a new attitude.

With respect to the Constitution and the framer's debates on that particular issue, it wasn't brought up. The framers actually discussed the birth citizenship requirement very little. The only existing record of it in the conventions is that the language was altered slightly in committee, but no record exists that it was discussed.

Concerning the Constitution, I'm wary of the near religious devotion that it is often held to. I'm even more wary of the near religious devotion we often hold the framers to. These were wise men, true, and even a little vainglorious, but they were also very conscious about their status as men. Franklin himself remarked on how he and the other members of the Continental Congress were just mere men, and how he scoffed that history might regard them as some sort of demigods. James Wilson, easily one of the most brilliant legal and philosophical minds this country has ever seen, desperately did not want to be remembered. The framers wanted a Constitution that could be changed not just because they knew that they didn't know everything, but because they wanted future generations to have ownership of this nation and its principles in the same way that they did. In short, these men would want us to have this discussion. They would want us to reach a conclusion that fit us. They certainly wouldn't want us to shy away from consideration of the matter on the mere thought that they must have discussed it, and that their every word was etched in stone from God himself.

In short, it's our Constitution. We have every right to change it if we see fit, and we should have open discussion on the matter free from the yoke of what the framers thought prudent 200 years ago.  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

Lord Bitememan

In short, it's our Constitution. We have every right to change it if we see fit, and we should have open discussion on the matter free from the yoke of what the framers thought prudent 200 years ago.

I completely concur. But I would add "Legally change it if we see fit" as some wish to scramble about the laws to alter by pushing the envelope of interpretation.  

[Kikibeau]

Hmm, interesting, I never heard about that.

Anyways, I think he is (unfortunately) still legally president. Until someone actually proves he was born elsewhere, he was legally elected and is, therefore, legally president. I'd be interested to see this issue be raised on a more public level, though. What would they even do if he turned out to be non-US born?  

[Lord Bitememan]

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But I would add "Legally change it if we see fit"

Yes. It's no service to democracy to interpret into existence that which the law never said in the first place.

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What would they even do if he turned out to be non-US born?

They'd say "Oh poop beans. Now we have to change the entry in the White House biography to say 'born in Kenya.'" There's one small problem with the "birther" cause. Barack Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, was a US citizen at the time of his birth. That means Obama could have been born on Mars, and legally he still retains birthright citizenship. So, it actually doesn't matter if, being born to US citizen parents, you are actually born in another country. The citizenship of your parents confers to you. This was actually a settled matter of law as far back as when George Romney ran for president. Romney was born in Mexico, but his parents were US citizens (it was even more dubious in this case, since it was not a certainty that Romney's parents intended to return to the US). Legal experts at the time agreed that his parents' citizenship conferred onto him birthright citizenship. The same governs Obama. He was born in Hawaii, but even if he were to have been born in Kenya, the US citizenship of his mother confers onto him.  

[Maggie239]

That is such a good point! A lot of people don't understand that.

I personally believe that Oboma is from Hawii, I wish he wasn't but thats how it is.

I also can't believe we are even talking about people from other countries being in high or powerful roles in the U.S.

We are our own country and just because we let people in from other countries does not mean they have the right to be preseident, for example.

What if someone lets say thirty eight, from Russia were he was born and lived until he came to amrica. He was involed in politics in Russia, as well. Should he be able to come to america and be the president? No, it is our contry. I couldn't go to any country and say I want to run for president or prime minister and then expect for it to happen. I am not racist or anything like that.  

[Lord Bitememan]

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just because we let people in from other countries does not mean they have the right to be preseident

Nobody has a "right" to be president. Some people meet a standard of qualification, some currently don't.

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What if someone lets say thirty eight, from Russia were he was born and lived until he came to amrica. He was involed in politics in Russia, as well. Should he be able to come to america and be the president? No, it is our contry.

Nobody is suggesting that such a case be allowed to stand for president. But, be advised that such an individual could serve as Secretary of Defense having only to earn Senate confirmation. I bet that thought doesn't make you feel warm and cozy either.

There is another side to this. You've brought up the nebulous Russian sleeper-agent-would-be-president. I can give you a much more fleshed out example, my buddy Firend. Firend was born in Iraq and lived there for the first 14 years of his life. His family was persecuted by the Saddam Hussein regime, and the regime even executed some of his family members. His family cheered for American forces from downtown Baghdad during the air war in 1991. Saddam ordered a portrait of George H. W. Bush painted on the floor of a popular hotel so that patron would walk on Bush's face. He stationed armed guards there to shoot anyone who didn't walk on it. Firend's dad made a point about walking around the portrait in front of the guards, and made such an amusing spectacle out of it the guards were laughing too hard to shoot him.

After the war they fled Iraq as refugees, and after spending some time in Jordan finally immigrated to the US. They moved into Detroit and had to make a go of it in the Detroit public school system. Firend didn't speak any English. He worked and struggled with it to learn. The family saved up to move into a better school district. Firend was thrown into the intensive English classes in my school. He always worked hard to grasp the language, he asked for help and wasn't shy about trying to learn to improve himself. He got into all the advanced track classes in math, science, and even English. He had the second highest GPA of his class and went to a prestigious university in Boston (Tufts, not Harvard). He became a naturalized citizen of the US and worked his way up to a master's degree in international relations. He supported George W. Bush in all his efforts in Iraq, and after 9-11 his mother went to work with the FBI as an Arab language specialist.

He himself went to work for the Defense Dept. He went to Iraq, under the banner of the US military. This is how he describes a confrontation with his former countrymen:
"Hi everyone.

I am sorry I haven’t been sending many pictures, but as you might have guessed, after a while it all becomes mundane. Nonetheless, I had a fun filled morning so I thought I’d share. I once again went out on a route-clearance mission (this is the last time mom, I promise!), and this time we had a lot more fun than the last time.

So, we start out by wearing these helmets that look like ones out of a WWII movie:

and then of course the buffalo starts digging through the trash:

well this time, we find an IED, so explosive ordinance disposal (EOD) send out their little robot with C4 to reduce it (blow it up):

After everyone backs up, the fire in the hole warning comes on and…

there you have it, no more IED. The crew smiles:

We continue our route and digging:

At this point, some dumb a** insurgents decide to face very heavily armored and armed vehicles with AK-47s. Our Bradleys return fire with their 25MM guns:

We know that there were two insurgents, one of which ended up in the hospital and probably bled to death. He should receive the Darwin award. Nonetheless, they hit two or three of our vehicles, to include the one I was in. Of course their bullets didn’t cause much harm against our armor, but they did manage to give my vehicle a flat tire:


An IED and an insurgent for a flat tire, all in all, I think it was a very successful mission. I like mornings like today’s

Cheers," (several images omitted)

He lives in Virginia now. He voted for McCain and thinks Obama is a fool. His car has one of the 9-11 memorial license plates, a courtesy afforded him by virtue of working for the government. This guy is a through and through American, very smart, has a firm grasp of economics, and understands not only how the world works, but how the middle east works in a way that most are afraid to accept. A Russian agent who served the Russian government as president, no, we probably wouldn't even vote the guy through the primaries. Firend, though, has lived here for 15 years, and by the time he would be eligible for the presidency, 20. He's served this country, and his loyalty is beyond question. Why should such a man be barred from consideration by mere accident of birth?  

[DanskiWolf]

A. Barack Hussein Obama is President of the United States.

B. He was born in the United States.

/true story  

[Rainbowfied Mouse]

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Are you saying we should change the constitution? Because that is what's required for a foreign born to become U.S. President.

As I stated, the framers gave us options to make amendments to the constitution for a changing society.

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And you won't find the requirements for U.S. President in the amendments, you'll find it in Article 2.

You missed my point wasn't requirements, but that we have the right to change it.

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And God help us if the powers that be feel that they have the power to completely change the Constitution around.

I believe they're necessary... we'd still have slavery without the amendments.

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So, yes, I do believe in the amendments, but we're not talking about the amendments, are we? We're talking about if foreign borns should be allowed to be U.S. President,

I'm talking about the cruelty of a world where you don't choose where you're born and therefore don't deserve the same rights in a heterogeneous society.

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well not according to the Constitution- and I don't feel the Constitution aught to be screwed around with.

But you're 1/3,000,000-ish...

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So, no, foreign born should not be President of the U.S.A. The founding fathers needed a solid document with clear instruction.

They also allowed amendments to be made with a 2/3rd population/rep vote.  

[Latopazora]

Well, like I mentioned, Obama is most likely eligible- I see no reason for thinking otherwise. The only thing I can really mention is the double standard when it came to private information. The media went nuts trying to get a hold of Bush's military records, even to have forged them. And then to allow Hawaii to hide Obama's birth records. The party and the state is being very stubborn about bringing Obama's records forth and that's when you give people the reason for suspicion. If Obama was born in Hawaii (and he may have), then there should be no problem. But its the double standard of the situation. If you're a republican, we need to see everything, but if you're a democrate, its all good, nothing wrong.
There's where I see the problem. If George Bush had to release his military records, then we shoud be able to see Obama's birth records.
Ok, so I was mistaken on the constitution, Mouse.  

[Head_Intelligents]

Vasilius Konstantinos

O'Reilly showed recently on his show the birth certificate for BarakObama from Hawaii. Also, several physicians who were present for his birth spoke up but the Right Wing Media refuses to acknowledge it, as does Lou Dobbs, who needs to shut up before he makes people look at him as the 21st Century version of Starr...

Obama has not presented a proper birth certificate. The one he has shown was fake. The professionals who make them even said "The certificate is fake for two reasons. On the background was forged and two, under racem it said African American. When obama was born (If it was in the U.S.) it would have said Black or negro. Also, his grandmother is quoted to say that she saw obama born in a kenyan hospital (Clearly a slip up in an interview). So there.  

[Lord Bitememan]

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Obama has not presented a proper birth certificate. The one he has shown was fake.

See, this is a very simple form of disingenuous debate. Whenever anyone presents documentation, legitimate or not, call it a fake. That makes the one presenting it have to prove it's legitimate. How do you prove a document is legitimate? The state of Hawaii says it is. So, basically, this is tin foil hat vs. the state of Hawaii. So, if you're going to say the State of Hawaii is lying, you had better have some solid proof.

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The professionals who make them

Who are these professionals? What are their credentials? I could write a birth certificate for my daughter's stuffed zebra and claim that makes me a professional that makes birth certificates.

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under racem it said African American.

Incorrect. There is no field for race of the child on the birth certificate Obama provided there are only entries for parents race. On Obama Sr's race it says "African." Not African American. Your expert doesn't know what he is talking about.

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When obama was born (If it was in the U.S.) it would have said Black or negro.

That was only in federal registries. Birth certificates are regulated at the state level, and Obama was born in Hawaii, a non-segregationist state with few blacks. Furthermore, Obama Sr., as a non-citizen, would have been regarded by a continental origin, not an American racial designation.

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Also, his grandmother is quoted to say that she saw obama born in a kenyan hospital (Clearly a slip up in an interview).

Who cares? She's not an authority of any kind. Here's me talking, I witnessed Barack Obama being born in Michigan. There, are we going to argue he's not really Hawaiian, he's a Michigander?

All of this is moot. Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, was a US citizen. That means it doesn't matter where on earth he was born, his mother was a US citizen and so her citizenship confers to Obama.