What are your thoughts on abortion?

[Lord Bitememan]

Incidentally, on the abortion vs. adoption matter, I found a few articles that might be of interest.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/reader-diaries/2009/05/19/abortion-vs-adoption-ask-an-adoptee

And

http://www.exiledmothers.com/adoption_facts/adoption_vs_abortion.html

It made me think of a few interesting questions with respect to adoption issues. How many here would support laws that require all children put up for adoption be placed with families of the same socioeconomic status? In other words, a law requiring that babies born to poor, single mothers be placed with poor families. I bet I I'll be awakened tonight by the sound of faces breaking the sound barrier in their transition to frowning on that idea. But how much of our reliance on this alternative is crafted by a reassuring thought that these babies will be placed in upper income households rather than poor ones? Why does our solution to the abortion issue require a woman to carry a child to term, and then turn it over to a rich family? Why don't our solutions focus on these rich families paying higher taxes to support government assistance programs that would help these poor mothers keep and raise their own children? The pro-life movement brims with passion and concern for the unborn, but boy does it ever lack any compassion in its class-based treatment of poor single mothers who make a mistake.

How many of us would support laws requiring adoptive parents to educate adoptee children about the truth of their birth? Or how about their actual lineage? How about laws that at the age of 18 provide the adoptee with all information about birth mother and conditions of adoption automatically? After all, the adoptee never agreed to a termination of any connection with a birth parent. If babies deserve a right to life, don't they also deserve a right to self-determination as well? Questions like these take us into frightening territory, like that an adoptee might logically be entitled to certain information that would undermine the veil of secrecy we like to erect about any relationship they have to their birth mother. In short, having to provide this information to adoptees might undermine our ability to punish these "whores" for their sexual transgressions by making them live forever never knowing their children. I know we sure as hell would never support a law that allowed one of these women to re-assert her parental rights over her child at any time. Of course, we don't use logic in that decision, we use the vindictive reasoning that she was "irresponsible" with her reproductive choices, and the stigma that she "gave up her child" to justify looking down on her and denying her the chance to ever be reunited with that child.

There are some pro-lifers out there who are true believers. They believe these are human lives, and they go out and do things to help prevent the termination of those lives. Some of these believers actually go out and do things to help women who want to keep their children. They start support groups. They actually lend helping hands, organize daycare services, and actually do what they can to provide a viable chance for women to keep these children. They make a difference because they understand something; an unintended pregnancy is a case of two equally precious, treasured human lives, not just one and the "whore" that "couldn't keep her legs closed." Unfortunately too much of the pro-life movement is centered around this latter idea. Seriously, think about a woman who has to choose between and abortion and keeping a child. Did you feel sympathy for her? Did you feel concern for her? Did you feel a desire to help her, comfort her, hold her hand, let her know she's not alone? Or, rather, did you feel an air of moral superiority to her because it wasn't you in that position? Did you feel some desire to lecture her on how she made a mistake? Did you feel a desire to moralize and start ruling out her options for her? In short, do you think of her as a stranger, or do you think of her as your friend? That will tell you if you're in it to preserve human lives, or if you're in it to feel superior to vulnerable people.  

[Rainbowfied Mouse]

'Tis why I left Right to Life >>;

Most of the issues that we dealt with are how horrible the woman is for spreading her legs, and that she deserves "reconciliation" for her wrong doings... and that she must be burdened with the "choice" she made. If the issue were surrounding how she must be helped out, not judged, and that she must be given support to help her keep the child (or help her give it away if she truly does not want it) I would be pro-life. The issue to me isn't whether the fetus is a life or not, because any biologist would tell you a fetus is living, it's about how the fetus deserves a good place in our society... unfortunately due to a lot of "religious" reasoning most people forget that any woman of any theism deserves the chance to keep their child... however the organization I worked for merely places the woman on a "not-to-be-judged for her wrong-doings" and the fetus as a third party... where they should just turn a blind eye to what's not their business, and help them out.  

[Lord Bitememan]

To quote the good reverend John Popper:
"it's hard to be believed what can be achieved
With an outstretched hand"  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

Meh.
The Libertarian in me requires the child of the womb at conception to remain alive.
All living humans, whether at the early stages of existence have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Sadly I even make this claim for those who have been raped. Its not the unborn's fault its there inside you. Do not destroy it because of its inconvenience.  

[Latopazora]

Even though I don't believe its fair to terminate a child just because the woman was raped, I don't think I can really tell a woman- who didn't choose, that she has to keep the child. I make the exception for rape victims. They do need the most help and sympathy.
My arguement are for those who cry "choice!"- I have not sympathy for real whores, why should I when they choose to continue that life style?
When it comes to helping women who decided to have sex and keep the baby, I'm all for that. I would rather have my tax dollors go to pay for supporting a single mom who made a mistake, for 18 years, rather than have my tax dollars pay for an abortion. I believe in helping the needy, and everybody makes mistakes that put them in a position of poverty.
When it comes to adoption- do away with the laws that keep mothers from their birth child. Just because a woman made a mistake when she was younger doesn't she hasn't grown and matured. I really do support adoption, but just now realizing these laws that keep mother from child, I think it should encouraged for the mother to stay in touch with the child.
I just want the expecting, single mom to have more options than just abortion. Be it adoption, support groups for raising child, even government funded programs.

Now! Here's another thing. Not all women who have abortion, have abortion because they want to. I believe a lot of it comes from the boyfriend. A lot of women would probably rather choose to keep the child completely, no abortion, no adoption. Pregnancy usually causes women to get emotionally and that makes her vunerable. And yes, I did mention that the choice comes before spreading the legs, but also comes for the guys. Men are part of this too.
That's reason for child support, it puts responsibility on the father too if he chooses not to marry the mother.
It really goes both ways, it depends on who the couple is. Sometimes the mother wants the baby and the father does not. Sometimes the father wants the baby and mother does not.  

[Pumona]

In general I'm against abortion unless their is a medical neccesity. In other words if the women is going to die, then she should be protected first. When it comes to a women that is raped it is alittle harder. I think the best thing would be adoption or to raise it but, some women might have a hard time with this.  

[Drarksupersaiyan]

Lord Bitememan

Quote:

Thank you i say that all the time, she choose when she spread her legs

How about the ones that don't make that choice, like women who are raped?

They wait till its born then let someone adobt it  

[Lord Bitememan]

Quote:

They wait till its born then let someone adobt it

So, you force them to live with an eternal reminder that they were raped, and the product of that rape exists in this world? Lovely. I assume you don't give a rat's a** about the woman who was raped, just the unborn, right?  

[Pandern]

im pro-choice unless the lady child is going to die and she is in danger of dying or she was raped and if she is in danger of dying and the baby is going to die too  

[Rainbowfied Mouse]

Pandern

im pro-choice unless the lady child is going to die and she is in danger of dying or she was raped and if she is in danger of dying and the baby is going to die too

Wouldn't that be "pro-life unless"?  

[Lord Bitememan]

Quote:

im pro-[life] unless the lady child is going to die and she is in danger of dying or she was raped and if she is in danger of dying and the baby is going to die too

K, here's a little exercise. A black woman in the inner city has no husband and 6 kids. She draws welfare for each. She is:
A) A social parasite.
B) A brave woman bucking social stigma and the reality of her own poverty to stand up for life even if she has to rely on the help of others.

My guess is before you saw the options, option A popped into your head. It's a class based double-standard in this country. Everyone loves to tout the bravery and principle of Sarah Palin for having five kids and bringing a Down Syndrome baby into the world. But, Sarah Palin has money, and we don't look nearly as kindly on poor women who have scads of kids and do so on the public dime.  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

Lord Bitememan

Quote:

im pro-[life] unless the lady child is going to die and she is in danger of dying or she was raped and if she is in danger of dying and the baby is going to die too

K, here's a little exercise. A black woman in the inner city has no husband and 6 kids. She draws welfare for each. She is:
A) A social parasite.
B) A brave woman bucking social stigma and the reality of her own poverty to stand up for life even if she has to rely on the help of others.

My guess is before you saw the options, option A popped into your head. It's a class based double-standard in this country. Everyone loves to tout the bravery and principle of Sarah Palin for having five kids and bringing a Down Syndrome baby into the world. But, Sarah Palin has money, and we don't look nearly as kindly on poor women who have scads of kids and do so on the public dime.

A social parasite.
Whats your call Lord Bitememan? Do you think it should be mandatory for the poor to abort if they become reliant on the state teet?  

[Lord Bitememan]

Not mandatory. But I believe all women should have a broad latitude in their choices so as to avoid having to take state assistance. But most people's principles stop at their pocketbook, and the line between a brave and principled woman standing up for a fundamental right and a social parasite is the dime we pay in taxes for her welfare check. That's why their such a snide air about the pro-life movement. Actually reducing abortions costs money. Sometimes it also involves a lot of work on the part of the people who want them reduced, and even worse, we discovered that one of the best methods in cutting down on them is to actually accept that people are going to have sex, and make birth control much more available. Sex makes our society uncomfortable, and we'll all be damned if we're going to pay actual money to get something we want done at the policy level. On the other hand, moral condemnation is free and makes the condemners feel good about themselves.  

[Senonas Demon]

If you don't want a kid, don't spread your legs.

A life is a life.

Would anyone say a dog can abort it's puppies? But then, people go "it's a dog blah blah blah" You kno what? A baby is a BABY.

I notice that everyone for any kind of abortion has already been born. D<

And I'm a GIRL. I don't think it's a choice. No matter what your position is. Yeah, the sitauation may be sad and it might suck a**, but you know...there's a reason we're having problems in this country. Because we've killed MILLIONS of possible working people since Roe v. Wade.

D< Abortion is bad. I have yet to meet someone who has had an abortion who doesn't regret it.