Demons

[Obscurus]

S a r h i e l

C'mon now, demons, really? Why would you want to go around provoking spirits that claim to be demons? There is nothing you're going to gain from summoning or provoking those sorts of spirits unless your a masochist.

Is there a specific purpose for wanting a demon to find you? There is no way in hell you'd be able to control the thing, it'll rip through your life and leave a wake of dread and depression. They like to screw with you, not you with them.

I assume you adhere to the modern view of "demon = bad non-human spirit" as opposed to the Classical view of "demon = neutral non-human spirit."  

[Fiennty]

Obscurus

S a r h i e l

C'mon now, demons, really? Why would you want to go around provoking spirits that claim to be demons? There is nothing you're going to gain from summoning or provoking those sorts of spirits unless your a masochist.

Is there a specific purpose for wanting a demon to find you? There is no way in hell you'd be able to control the thing, it'll rip through your life and leave a wake of dread and depression. They like to screw with you, not you with them.

I assume you adhere to the modern view of "demon = bad non-human spirit" as opposed to the Classical view of "demon = neutral non-human spirit."

Nope, but a non-human spirit, lets think about it logically.

Has it ever felt emotions? How would you know if it even knows what pain, remorse, fear, or even joy is? People can claim that some of these non-human spirits will 'feed' off of fear, but how far does that go? They may not understand the emotion fear, but they will certainly understand that by creating fear they create power.

How would it know what emotions it is eliciting from you by certain actions. Is it intelligent? Sure, why not, we can call them that. It still doesn't have a notion of human behavior, experience, or emotion.

As for neutral? Wasn't there an "attack" story posted in this thread? Now I'm not saying that these entities aren't neutral and that they will all assault you, but they can and will ******** with you. Their intelligence does not mirror ours.  

[Obscurus]

S a r h i e l

Obscurus

S a r h i e l

C'mon now, demons, really? Why would you want to go around provoking spirits that claim to be demons? There is nothing you're going to gain from summoning or provoking those sorts of spirits unless your a masochist.

Is there a specific purpose for wanting a demon to find you? There is no way in hell you'd be able to control the thing, it'll rip through your life and leave a wake of dread and depression. They like to screw with you, not you with them.

I assume you adhere to the modern view of "demon = bad non-human spirit" as opposed to the Classical view of "demon = neutral non-human spirit."

Nope, but a non-human spirit, lets think about it logically.

Has it ever felt emotions? How would you know if it even knows what pain, remorse, fear, or even joy is? People can claim that some of these non-human spirits will 'feed' off of fear, but how far does that go? They may not understand the emotion fear, but they will certainly understand that by creating fear they create power.

How would it know what emotions it is eliciting from you by certain actions. Is it intelligent? Sure, why not, we can call them that. It still doesn't have a notion of human behavior, experience, or emotion.

As for neutral? Wasn't there an "attack" story posted in this thread? Now I'm not saying that these entities aren't neutral and that they will all assault you, but they can and will ******** with you. Their intelligence does not mirror ours.

How would you know that it hasn't felt emotions and doesn't know what they are? Human beings use fear as power all the time.

How do you know that it doesn't possess human behavior or emotion?

An intelligence that doesn't mirror hours doesn't necessarily make it inferior. If one human being attacks you does that mean that they all will?  

[Fiennty]

Obscurus

How would you know that it hasn't felt emotions and doesn't know what they are? Human beings use fear as power all the time.

How do you know that it doesn't possess human behavior or emotion?

An intelligence that doesn't mirror hours doesn't necessarily make it inferior. If one human being attacks you does that mean that they all will?

Well then I guess that I'm making an a** out of myself when I assume that an entity that is not human isn't going to have the same chemical reactions to create emotions.

I know it doesn't posses human behavior or emotion the same way I know a sparrow or a trout won't have human behavior or emotion (Thank you Temple Grandin for clearing that up for me). Do non-human entities feel jealousy? Do they lust or have they experienced depression?

I've never 'spoken' or communicated with any under the basis that I've never been interested in them.

I certainly did not say that they will all attack you. [Now I'm not saying that these entities aren't neutral and that they will all assault you, but they can and will ******** with you.] Maybe the "will" wasn't portrayed right. By saying they will screw with you I mean that there's just as much of a potential for them to display unwanted actions as there is a strange dog. If you don't know the dog you don't know what sort of temperament the dog has. If you want to sit down with a demon and have a heart to heart that's up to you.

Buh. I didn't say they were inferior. I don't know where you got that impression.  

[Rustig]

S a r h i e l

Obscurus

How would you know that it hasn't felt emotions and doesn't know what they are? Human beings use fear as power all the time.

How do you know that it doesn't possess human behavior or emotion?

An intelligence that doesn't mirror hours doesn't necessarily make it inferior. If one human being attacks you does that mean that they all will?

Well then I guess that I'm making an a** out of myself when I assume that an entity that is not human isn't going to have the same chemical reactions to create emotions.

I know it doesn't posses human behavior or emotion the same way I know a sparrow or a trout won't have human behavior or emotion (Thank you Temple Grandin for clearing that up for me). Do non-human entities feel jealousy? Do they lust or have they experienced depression?

I've never 'spoken' or communicated with any under the basis that I've never been interested in them.

I certainly did not say that they will all attack you. [Now I'm not saying that these entities aren't neutral and that they will all assault you, but they can and will ******** with you.] Maybe the "will" wasn't portrayed right. By saying they will screw with you I mean that there's just as much of a potential for them to display unwanted actions as there is a strange dog. If you don't know the dog you don't know what sort of temperament the dog has. If you want to sit down with a demon and have a heart to heart that's up to you.

Buh. I didn't say they were inferior. I don't know where you got that impression.

You're saying that it's reasonable to infer that spirits don't have emotions and won't respond in an emotive fashion because they ostensibly don't have the chemistry to allow for such things, yes? Why is it you assume that they have intelligence when they apparently don't have the biology for it? Why do you assume that they have "motives", that their "motives" are anything like what we conceive of as "motives", and that they have the Will or intelligence to perform actions based on their "motives" (i.e. that they will interfere and willfully screw with you, that they call themselves "demons", that they'll destroy your life, all things you've attested prior to thi, apparently without any experience with them) when you've already claimed that they "[don't] have a notion of human behavior, experience or emotion", and therefore will not operate or act in any way that's redolent of anything vaguely human? You've asserted that because they lack the chemistry for emotion, they cannot behave in an emotional capacity - given that they apparently do not have the biology or neurochemistry for things such as (for example) independent judgment, moral decision-making, abstract and conceptual thought, concepts of language, learning mechanisms, sight, hearing, e.t.c., why do you assume that they are capable of being able to interact with human beings, have the concept of calling themselves "demons", are capable of visiting willful acts of destruction upon their supplicant and also have the temperament to do such a thing?

My point being, if we're going to approach this from a purely logical, rational standpoint and critique spirit life based only on what we know and can prove from an analogous discipline (in this case, biology), we're going to have to widen the scope and critique all of our assumptions about it, the arguments we have against those assumptions (and where we picked up these arguments from, from what evidence, and how reliable it is, and whether our arguments against assumptions are assumptions too) if we really want to be as thorough and accurate as possible. Suffice it to say, I'm not sure that's really the way to go - demonstrably, approaching it purely from the point of view of biology and going from first principles will show that spirits most likely don't exist, at least insofar as we currently conceive of them, as they're not supported by our current proven models of biology. Which might be the case, sure - but we've only proven that it logically follows that they don't exist, and just because it's logical doesn't mean it's valid/true.  

[Obscurus]

S a r h i e l

Buh. I didn't say they were inferior. I don't know where you got that impression.

I got that impression because of your previous statement.

S a r h i e l

As for neutral? Wasn't there an "attack" story posted in this thread? Now I'm not saying that these entities aren't neutral and that they will all assault you, but they can and will ******** with you. Their intelligence does not mirror ours.

Why mention their intelligence if you're not implying that they lack the moral reasoning of human beings, thus making them inferior in this aspect?

As to everything else, see Mitsh's post above. It mirrors my feelings on the matter.  

[Fiennty]

Oh boy, Gentlemen.

Mitsh, I don't even consider that the demons have biological functions. I've considered that they are on a different plane with different scientific basses. They could have diamond blood and coal for neurons. I have no clue what sort of lives these entities live but I would assume that they would not have the same scientific principals that apply on our plane. Would an alien to our planet have the same chemical and biological processes? I wouldn't know, I've never met one but I can bet they don't. Or by circumstance they would and may have very different ways of explaining this information, which may as well be the case for demons.

I understand that I cannot simply look at demons from a purely biological or chemical point of view but it is the point of view that I've been schooled to believe. Though it is a point that I would like to see proven. How would you judge if demons have biological processes that do create emotions? Would you judge this by provoking them to illicit a desired reaction? Then judge is the reaction you received was similar to the way an animal or a human would react? (I would mention plants, but I've never had a tree slap me for pulling a leaf off of it.)

Obscurus, I said that their intelligence does not mirror ours. That doesn't mean that they are any less intelligent then we are, they probably have a vast understanding of the world and everything on this planet.
A whales intelligence does not mirror ours yet they to have the capability to communicate at sound levels undetectable by human ears and can disappear without a trace for lengths of time and reappear quite a distance away. I'd say they're pretty savvy creatures. They don't have to think or breathe or experience life like a human to have intelligence.

I know I keep using animals for comparison but they are the closest thing I have to explaining how another being (other then humans) think (but a bad example as they do share chemical and biological properties with us).

If either or you happen to understand exactly how demons function I'd be very interested in hearing your theories.

 

[Obscurus]

S a r h i e l

If either or you happen to understand exactly how demons function I'd be very interested in hearing your theories.

I think that the point we're trying to make is that no one knows for sure how demons function and therefore trying to lay down anything concrete about their thought processes, emotions, or motives (or even biology and chemistry, if they have any) is a speculative crap-shoot.

My entire reasoning for bringing any of this up was to challenge the common practice of assuming that all demons are of the fire and brimstone Christian cosmological variety. I think that we all probably got some wires crossed or things got lost along the way.

If I have to speculate on the nature of demons (and that's really all we can do at this point) then I think they're most likely like the jinn of the Arab world or the daemons of Ancient Greece. These beings are essentially non-human spirits that interact with this existence and can interact with humanity, for good or ill depending on the particular jinn/daemon and their motives.  

[Adice_Adice]

One could also theorize that demons are actually beings from another dimension, or a higher plane. if you existed in a two dimensional realm then any interaction with beings from the third dimension would be nearly unfathomable. the same would be apply to our us and the forth dimension.

Though this is simply an idea for the sake of argument. What we do know about demons is that they seem to for the most part have a code of conduct or set of rules that they must abide by. And while we may not be able to fully grasp this set of rules there definitively seems to be some.

Personally i think that its something enforced by the demonic community if anything. like a set of strongly enforced guide lines. for example while there may be laws in our society theres nothing really stopping us from breaking them. Or for another example. most gangs or organized crime will not target the elderly out of respect. this guild line is enforced by the gang its self.

I personally think that something along the same lines is in effect with the demons.  

[Rustig]

S a r h i e l

Oh boy, Gentlemen.

Mitsh, I don't even consider that the demons have biological functions. I've considered that they are on a different plane with different scientific basses. They could have diamond blood and coal for neurons. I have no clue what sort of lives these entities live but I would assume that they would not have the same scientific principals that apply on our plane. Would an alien to our planet have the same chemical and biological processes? I wouldn't know, I've never met one but I can bet they don't. Or by circumstance they would and may have very different ways of explaining this information, which may as well be the case for demons.

I understand that I cannot simply look at demons from a purely biological or chemical point of view but it is the point of view that I've been schooled to believe. Though it is a point that I would like to see proven. How would you judge if demons have biological processes that do create emotions? Would you judge this by provoking them to illicit a desired reaction? Then judge is the reaction you received was similar to the way an animal or a human would react? (I would mention plants, but I've never had a tree slap me for pulling a leaf off of it.)

Obscurus, I said that their intelligence does not mirror ours. That doesn't mean that they are any less intelligent then we are, they probably have a vast understanding of the world and everything on this planet.
A whales intelligence does not mirror ours yet they to have the capability to communicate at sound levels undetectable by human ears and can disappear without a trace for lengths of time and reappear quite a distance away. I'd say they're pretty savvy creatures. They don't have to think or breathe or experience life like a human to have intelligence.

I know I keep using animals for comparison but they are the closest thing I have to explaining how another being (other then humans) think (but a bad example as they do share chemical and biological properties with us).

If either or you happen to understand exactly how demons function I'd be very interested in hearing your theories.

I didn't mean any offense by what I was saying, incidentally - upon a reread, my post does look a bit interrogative, so I'm sorry if I came across as a bit ragey.

Your question "How would you judge if demons have biological processes that do create emotions?" pretty much sums up what I was getting at - how do you find something like that out for sure? As you implied, they could have utterly unknowable elements to them - but the closest analogue I have to them is that they operate in a vaguely-human way. Anecdotes often speak of them appearing in human form, communicating somehow, sometimes they look like people we know who have died, and so on -- and while that certainly doesn't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that spirits are necessarily "ghosts of the departed", it shows that they're roughly analogous to humans and by and large I can treat them as if they were. It'd be very difficult to test (scientifically or casually) whether a spirit displaying emotions necessarily means that they have the biology to create those emotions (there could be any number of theories to show that they don't, but still seem to display emotion), but the bottom line is that at this stage, we just don't know. It's difficult/impossible to prove.

Hence, my reply to the last line of your post is another big "I dunno", sadly. We can theorise, we can speculate, and we can come up with models that kind-of work, but we don't know - and we may not be able to know for sure. Such is the occult, I suppose.  

[Fiennty]

I didn't pick up any hostility out of this topic. wink

Adice_Adice, I've mention quite a few times that they are from another dimension or a higher plane and that they may have similar a similar biology we are unaware of...

But I like your "code of conduct" theory. It seems to fit the best to me.  

[A1Saucy]

Obscurus

4shi

Obscurus

4shi

Obscurus

I actually found it on /x/. rofl

So now that we have that out of the way, taking a chaos perspective, could these sigils be used to do what they are supposed to do? Similar to working with the Simon Necronomicon. It's not necessarily "real" but we all know that doesn't really mean much when it comes to chaos magic.

Since someone beat me to answer the first question, I'd say if you can get yourself to believe in it long enough to serve its purpose it could work. I'd personally err on the side of caution because you're evoking (or I'm assuming that would be the case) some powerful being. Regardless if it's maligned or not there's always a great risk in any endeavor of that sort.

I'm not really a summoner myself, but I've developed an infatuation with sigils so this was relevant to my interests. If I ever worked with this I'd obviously be careful.

Sigils are pretty interesting. What might be interesting to work with is modifying the sigil so as to protect the user as well as accomplish what you want to do.

I think that the summoning circles and such are used to protect the summoner. The sigils themselves would just give a means to call the demon and potentially control it. Not sure I would rely totally on that though.

Modifying the sigils might bring up something a lot different than what you intended. I think that would be a lot more dangerous.

Well, summoning demons can be considered dangerous. I don't see how modifying a sigil will alter that fact in any way. Also, if you know what you're doing modifying it won't be a problem in the first place wink  

[Obscurus]

4shi

Obscurus

4shi

Obscurus

4shi

Obscurus

I actually found it on /x/. rofl

So now that we have that out of the way, taking a chaos perspective, could these sigils be used to do what they are supposed to do? Similar to working with the Simon Necronomicon. It's not necessarily "real" but we all know that doesn't really mean much when it comes to chaos magic.

Since someone beat me to answer the first question, I'd say if you can get yourself to believe in it long enough to serve its purpose it could work. I'd personally err on the side of caution because you're evoking (or I'm assuming that would be the case) some powerful being. Regardless if it's maligned or not there's always a great risk in any endeavor of that sort.

I'm not really a summoner myself, but I've developed an infatuation with sigils so this was relevant to my interests. If I ever worked with this I'd obviously be careful.

Sigils are pretty interesting. What might be interesting to work with is modifying the sigil so as to protect the user as well as accomplish what you want to do.

I think that the summoning circles and such are used to protect the summoner. The sigils themselves would just give a means to call the demon and potentially control it. Not sure I would rely totally on that though.

Modifying the sigils might bring up something a lot different than what you intended. I think that would be a lot more dangerous.

Well, summoning demons can be considered dangerous. I don't see how modifying a sigil will alter that fact in any way. Also, if you know what you're doing modifying it won't be a problem in the first place wink

The problem I see is if you were expecting one being and had everything set up to deal with it specifically, but then got a different being because you tinkered with the sigil, you might have wasted your time summoning something that can't do what you need.  

[A1Saucy]

Obscurus

4shi

Obscurus

4shi

Obscurus

I'm not really a summoner myself, but I've developed an infatuation with sigils so this was relevant to my interests. If I ever worked with this I'd obviously be careful.

Sigils are pretty interesting. What might be interesting to work with is modifying the sigil so as to protect the user as well as accomplish what you want to do.

I think that the summoning circles and such are used to protect the summoner. The sigils themselves would just give a means to call the demon and potentially control it. Not sure I would rely totally on that though.

Modifying the sigils might bring up something a lot different than what you intended. I think that would be a lot more dangerous.

Well, summoning demons can be considered dangerous. I don't see how modifying a sigil will alter that fact in any way. Also, if you know what you're doing modifying it won't be a problem in the first place wink

The problem I see is if you were expecting one being and had everything set up to deal with it specifically, but then got a different being because you tinkered with the sigil, you might have wasted your time summoning something that can't do what you need.

That could happen regardless of what you do to the sigil. There are many factors to consider in summoning. And if you're concerned about the effects of a sigil on summoning you may want to reconsider using such a thing in the first place.

Heck, who's to say the demon would even do what you ask? There's a reason in many books why they say you make a summoned spirit swear on the Tetragrammon (sp?), and it wasn't just for pomp.  

[PrometheanSet]

Well, lets take a generic chaos magician's stance on this:

I present a sigil to summon bugs bunny, should you feel the inclination:



The thing is, we're famous for not really sticking to the details as much as, say, a ceremonial magician, especially Thelemites. Details are details, but the intent is still the same.

And that intent is what matters. The rest is art for the sake of helping to put us in the right state for that intent to get projected into reality.

Consequently, if you don't know exactly what it is you're summoning, this will allow all sorts of problems.

I can summon Kali, the Hindu goddess that is the bloodthirsty wife of Shiva that LOVES to dance... or I could summon Cali, an egregoire of Cali-girl bobbleheaded beach bunnies. And remember, exact spelling isn't too much of an issue (especially since one is translated from another language from a completely different alphabet!).

In a comic book entitled "The Invisibles" one of the main characters is a Chaos Magician. In the first issue, he evokes Jon Lennon as a god. But if you look up more about that comic, it goes deeper... use it for inspiration, if you bother with anything from it, just get some ideas and test them out. Doesn't matter where they're from, just do your homework before you put on the labcoat.

But yeah... getting some dilettante's chart off of /x/, with a sigil to summon a "Little Mermaid" as "Hell's Historian" just seems laughable to me.

Go play with Fotamecus for a while. He's nice to beginners, and doesn't demand much. Heck, he's helped me out for years, and still counting.