Sucide (my two cents)

[Lucky-Emi]

VK Fox

Relevant question - Does the blood of Christ cover all sins, or does it only cover some?

All sins are equal in God's eyes. Except, as Fefnir pointed out, blasphemy.

And @Fighting Fefnir I've been mispelling your name this whole time sweatdrop Sorry XD  

[Lord Izaran]

I once believed Suicide was condemnation to Hell, but now I believe I am wrong. There is only ONE sin that cannot be forgiven...just one. And Suicide is not that sin. In His infinite caring and love, God will forgive.  

[Fighting Fefnir]

Shadows-shine

I don't believe in the concept of the chances for repentance stopping at the death of the physical body. I believe learning continues beyond the grave because our spirit is immortal and lives on past the mortal body.

Mysticism, great.

Quote:

As to your first question, do I think that the mentally handicapped are culpable for crimes? No, because they don't fully understand their actions because of the defect in their brain.

'Mentally handicapped' would include those who attempt to commit suicide. They're not in their right mind, just the same a mentally handicapped person.

Quote:

As for people who commit suicide or attempt to commit suicide, to me, it's selfish and weak. It's a way out for some one who feels that they can't face the world. I really don't feel any sympathy for people commit suicide or attempt it. I feel for the families that have lost loved ones to suicide. There are simply too many resource centers and help lines, friends, family, pastors, preachers, doctors, thearpists, etc. to talk to, seek help from, confide in, etc. that some one shouldn't have to seek suicide as the way out or as an option to "solve" the problems they face. In my view, there is no problem too great in this world that you cannot face or feel that it's utterly hopeless.

And you never even thought that maybe some people have, y'know, an altered state of consciousness? That they aren't thinking straight? That even though those things you listed are available, they can't think of them, or if they do, don't think their problem can be helped?

Quote:

I am not judging people who are mentally handicapped or suicidal, or even those who have committed suicide and trying to determine whether or not they are ascending to heaven or descending to hell. That job is left up to God. I do not judge any one. I look at their situations though and form my opinions, then speak my mind, but that's not judging.

Stating that it is impossible for them to be forgiven is synonymous with condemning them for their action in this instance.

And by the way, forming opinions? Synonymous with judgment.

Quote:

I realize there are extenuating circumstances. I don't believe in that concept that all sin is equal in God's eyes. He is going to judge people accordingly to their knowledge and deeds. I don't believe that sin is black and white either, because people are not. There are too many grey areas in life. I am trying to approach this topic as though things were black and white, you either repent or go to hell type of attitude. Even though that's not my full belief.

And yet you're still not a Devil's Advocate because you agree with the majority. It's whatever.  

[Shadows-shine]

Perhaps I oversimplified my arguement and left a few things out of my opinion. I was not thinking clearly yesterday when I addressed your post and should have thought it out a little bit more. But alas, I had a lot on my mind.


No, my beliefs are not mysticism.


As for those who commit suicide. This is where I should have thought it out just a bit longer and clarified my position a little better. I do agree with you about there being excpetions. Where the exceptions are or what they entail, I cannot say and will not say because I leave that to God. In some instances, suicide is selfish and weak and in others the person may be as you said, in an altered state of mind like a mentally handicapped person. I have thought about those people who have attempted suicide. My husband and I talked about it a bit last night and this morning because I started second guessing my response I have made to you yesterday. He said perhaps I was a little cold and needed to rethink my standing. Now I feel that suicide is one of those grey areas, like all sin is a grey area, that we, as humans can't tell what the person was thinking or feeling at the point in time that the act is committed. So I leave my opinion as thus.

I never said I believed it was impossible for them to be forgiven.

I wasn't playing devil's advocate in my response to you, nor was I trying to be one in that response. I was trying to clarify my standing to you. I don't always play that role in my repsonses in this guild or in any thread.


After doing some praying and research on the subject of suicide, I felt compelled to post this in here.


It's an article discussing the topic of suicide and what my Church leaders have to say about the matter. I agree with what they said about the subject. I realize that I should have taken a different approach to the subject and thought out my responses better, but like I said before, I was not thinking clearly yesterday because I had a lot on my mind already. I also want to say that I am not very good at putting my thoughts into words, so when I am trying to convey a message, it doesn't always come out right. Any ways, I hope this clarifies how I feel about suicide when looking at it from all sides of the spectrum.  

[Fighting Fefnir]

mys·ti·cism (mst-szm)
n.
1.
a. Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God.
b. The experience of such communion as described by mystics.
2. A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience.
3. Vague, groundless speculation.

mysticism [ˈmɪstɪˌsɪzəm]
n
1. belief in or experience of a reality surpassing normal human understanding or experience, esp a reality perceived as essential to the nature of life
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) a system of contemplative prayer and spirituality aimed at achieving direct intuitive experience of the divine
3. obscure or confused belief or thought

Also, you weren't playing Devil's Advocate, period.

Now, important points. One, you used scripture to assert the fact that one must be sorry for what they have done in order to be forgiven. Two, you indicated the unlikeliness of there being enough time for someone committing suicide to repent. Three, you asked how someone could be forgiven for a sin they did not to repent of. Four, you indicate that all chances for redemption stop at death. You have created a situation where it is impossible for someone committing suicide to NOT be damned on the operative notion that suicide is a sin. This is condemning people who commit suicide to hell because they have no chance to repent, and is therefor judging them, and directly contradicts what you said about what you believe.

I indicated that there may be other reasons God would forgive a person past their asking, such as an altered state of consciousness via injury, mental impairment, or medication, etc., and you've agreed with me.

I realize playing that DA card sounds like it will get you out of this, but it won't. Define your position, and we'll go from there.

EDIT: In response to your edit, after I finished laughing about your Mormonism, I took a serious look. The most important line would be this one.

"Persons subject to great stresses may lose control of themselves and become mentally clouded to the point that they are no longer accountable for their acts. Such are not to be condemned for taking their own lives."

That was what I was talking about.  

[Shadows-shine]

Yes I was playing devil's advocate because I don't really believe that all chances of forgiveness and repentance stops at death. So therefore I threw that out there to get a response.

I have clarified my postition and that I realized that I spoke wrongly and miscalculated what I was trying to say. I acknowledged I made a mistake and I corrected it, now quit shoving it my face.

Oh and I don't see what is so humerous about my beliefs and me being LDS. I am still a Christian, regardless of what any one says. So if my religion makes you take me less seriously then I guess this debate is over.


I also pointed out a few times that I agreed with you about there being exceptions to the rule. My position has been defined. I stated my stance on suicide more clearly because I was not clear when I started out.  

[Fighting Fefnir]

Generally a debate has two sides that disagree, so since we agree on the point in question, the debate had ended already. And I laughed because the basis of your faith is something that is certifiably incorrect; the native American tribes have no similarities or connections to the tribes of Israel, at all, period, no matter what Glen Beck or your faith purports.

It's not that I take you less seriously, it's that I don't take the religion you're quoting seriously, what with the magic underwear and things like that. Or maybe that little old line in your prophet's book that says people with 'dark completions', AKA black people, are sinners and were originally white. It's whatever. It's not the point of the thread.  

[Shadows-shine]

Fighting Fefnir

Generally a debate has two sides that disagree, so since we agree on the point in question, the debate had ended already. And I laughed because the basis of your faith is something that is certifiably incorrect; the native American tribes have no similarities or connections to the tribes of Israel, at all, period, no matter what Glen Beck or your faith purports.

It's not that I take you less seriously, it's that I don't take the religion you're quoting seriously, what with the magic underwear and things like that. Or maybe that little old line in your prophet's book that says people with 'dark completions', AKA black people, are sinners and were originally white. It's whatever. It's not the point of the thread.

I can address these things to you via PM if you want. I'd like to clarify some things to you about the Israelite, Native American connection, the misinterpreted verse in the Book of Mormon about the issue of color, and the other things you have pointed out.  

[Fighting Fefnir]

Feel free to throw a PM my way then.  

[Chief Chilly]

Fighting Fefnir

:: cough ::

Catholicism purports that anyone who commits suicide is clearly not in their right mind and are not accountable for that sin. Or, that's what they say now.

So um, no.

While I don't think suicide is ever an answer (permanent solution to temporary problems and all that), I find it very disrespectful not to have some inkling of compassion for someone who was desperate enough to end their own life. You don't have to agree with their reasons or actions, but some sympathy is warranted.

@Chilly: Not all sociopaths are murderers. As much as Hollywood will tell you otherwise, sociopaths can lead normal, productive lives.

Also, I met my current girlfriend online, so I resent the remark about online dating being a 'sad existence'. I plan to marry this girl when the timing is a bit better.

I would ask you to go and read a college psychology textbook in regards to handling suicidal people. What you did may very well have encouraged her to actually take her life, and your lack of sympathy in a situation like that is absolutely unacceptable. I can understand not taking her back, but even in 'calling her bluff' you might have been a direct factor in her death. You wanna call it murder? You were an accomplice in that case.

And one more thing; obviously only non-Christians and teenagers kill themselves, right? That's rhetorical, don't answer. Your example shows a lack of any sort of understanding as to why a person may consider suicide. Jesus is not the anti-suicide pill, and age doesn't rule out suicide as an option.

I do believe it is a little too late for this reply, but I might as well respond. Actually, I figured Fenfir would come in here and say something about my post.

Anyway, pardon me with the online dating generalization. If you do feel love for her, then yeah, I'd say that's viable and not a "sad-existance" at all. What I was referring to was those who don't do it for the spark that you have with your girl, those who do it for....whatever pathetic reason they have. So again, if you'd forgive that broad generalization.

As for my little remark, she is still very much alive and over everything that happened, for the most part. I'm sure that for the most part, anyone with common sense would be able to see that, not as someone telling them to die, but as someone telling them not to. Or at least in my mind.

P.S: Fenfir, you seem grumpy. Just saying.  

[Fighting Fefnir]

It hadn't been a good day, and I apologize if I offended anyone.

I kind of worded the response about that girl on the severe side. It was meant to be an 'if she went through with it' thing, but looked a lot more like 'she killed herself, jerk'. However, I stand by the fact that it is VERY dangerous to encourage a suicidal person in such a way. As has been my mantra this thread, suicidal people are not in their right mind, and she was in no state to judge the double meaning of it.

As for the online thing, it's in the past. We're good.

PS: You spelled my name wrong, lol.  

[Endito]

Fighting Fefnir

:: cough ::

Catholicism purports that anyone who commits suicide is clearly not in their right mind and are not accountable for that sin. Or, that's what they say now.

So um, no.

While I don't think suicide is ever an answer (permanent solution to temporary problems and all that), I find it very disrespectful not to have some inkling of compassion for someone who was desperate enough to end their own life. You don't have to agree with their reasons or actions, but some sympathy is warranted.

@Chilly: Not all sociopaths are murderers. As much as Hollywood will tell you otherwise, sociopaths can lead normal, productive lives.

Also, I met my current girlfriend online, so I resent the remark about online dating being a 'sad existence'. I plan to marry this girl when the timing is a bit better.

I would ask you to go and read a college psychology textbook in regards to handling suicidal people. What you did may very well have encouraged her to actually take her life, and your lack of sympathy in a situation like that is absolutely unacceptable. I can understand not taking her back, but even in 'calling her bluff' you might have been a direct factor in her death. You wanna call it murder? You were an accomplice in that case.

And one more thing; obviously only non-Christians and teenagers kill themselves, right? That's rhetorical, don't answer. Your example shows a lack of any sort of understanding as to why a person may consider suicide. Jesus is not the anti-suicide pill, and age doesn't rule out suicide as an option.

I concur.  

[devouri2]

Suicide is wrong but for people that go through with it i'm sure they have to give God a reason why they took their lives. trust me i've tried to go through with it twice but stopped myself since my life really did flash before my eyes. suicide is a problem not a solution, i think it's really bad. So i wouldn't be here if i had not stopped right were i was at with tears flowing down my face and my friend not talking to me anymore. So try to strive on staying happy.  

[Shanna66]

devouri2

Suicide is wrong but for people that go through with it i'm sure they have to give God a reason why they took their lives. trust me i've tried to go through with it twice but stopped myself since my life really did flash before my eyes. suicide is a problem not a solution, i think it's really bad. So i wouldn't be here if i had not stopped right were i was at with tears flowing down my face and my friend not talking to me anymore. So try to strive on staying happy.

im very happy to see that you realized how important your life is before it was too late and im sorry you went through whatever made you sad enough to even consider such a thing  

[Mr Baton]

I beleive that God lets you choose, heaven or hell, in your body, as you die, before and after. Such as if i was a sinner, which i am, and i drowned in the ocean, God would appear before me and ask me if i am truthfully sorry for my sins, and if i would say yes, which a hope that i will, that he would take my soul back to His land of heaven.

i have much pitty for those who commit suicide or kill people. I mean,what if you are the last person in your family, you have no freinds besided one and that person dies a painfull death. to me, that would be too painfull to bear.I would probably even turn away rom the church, then come back at one point when i realise that there is hope in the Lord.