The problem of perfection.

[Lethkhar]

Seabhac

I believe that an argument that would be used here is that humans, being imperfect, cannot understand God in His perfection. Therefore to try to figure out why He made them imperfect would be futile.

That sounds very weak, but it's an argument that I think would be made.

Whenever that argument is presented to me, I ask them how they can expect me to have a personal relationship with something no one, including myself, understands.  

[Seabhac]

Lethkhar

Seabhac

I believe that an argument that would be used here is that humans, being imperfect, cannot understand God in His perfection. Therefore to try to figure out why He made them imperfect would be futile.

That sounds very weak, but it's an argument that I think would be made.

Whenever that argument is presented to me, I ask them how they can expect me to have a personal relationship with something no one, including myself, understands.

Yes, it was presented to me when I was still a Catholic and I asked questions that could not be answered. I never did buy it.  

[Redem]

Seabhac

Yes, it was presented to me when I was still a Catholic and I asked questions that could not be answered. I never did buy it.

Nor did I. *Sigh*  

[Nonymous]

I hate the idea that god is perfect. An idea of perfect, an idea of absolute, an idea beauty in God belittles every thing else in life. Everything is compared to this idea of what is perfect is and that creates a standard for everyone to live by and destroyers individuality.

Perfection is acceptation with out exception. Another words for something to be perfect, everyone must agree upon it, and that will never happen for anything.  

[Redem]

The idea of a perfect god.. it denies freewill. It comes from a realm of philosophical absolutes. Ideas which have no true existance, merely thought form.  

[Dathu]

Muaethia

Dathu

Actually...I..uh..believe in perfection. sweatdrop

You know someone that's completely perfect, then? Or believe that one's life can become perfect in time, with no stress or worry? Please explain what you mean by 'perfection' from your point of view.

Yes and no on both accounts. But before I begin I would to say that I think Redem's take on the definition of "perfect" is a little off from the actual definition in respect to it being unchanging and to it being more than one. This is primarily due to "perfection" being a word of opinion and perception, such as better, sexier, and prettier, “beauty is in the eye of beholder,” and yet also a universal standard.

What I mean by "I believe in perfection" is that I believe in it being possible. Have I ever met a perfect human being? No. Have I ever known or heard of someone who has lived or is living a perfect life. No. Does that mean it is impossible? No. Perfection is possible. It is just incredibly difficult, and sometimes subject to personal standards. I think it is obvious that conditions can be perfect, such as perfect condition for plant growth. And there are other situations where “perfect” can apply. But to explain why I believe in a universal perfect, I will need to explain the observations that led to it.

I like art. I look at a lot of art. Some “only a mother could love” while others seem to be unusually popular. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or simply of personal preference, then why do some seem to appeal to people on a massive scale? If what is appealing is subject to culture, experiences, and taste, then why do some paintings appeal to many people from many cultures, life experiences, and tastes. The same can be said for music. I don’t think anyone would argue that different people have very different music tastes, and yet, even though these different people who lead different lives from different cultures can and will agree that a song, not even in their language, is good.

I’m ignoring foods, clothing, and other necessities, because these are requirements, not everywhere, but most developed cultures. Music and art are not needed in society they are a luxury.

Anyway, I believe that the reason that there are paintings, songs, pictures, and people who tend to appeal to mass majority is that they come close to perfection. When we discover the perfect song, picture, painting, face, it will appeal to everyone. Many people believe in a formula for the perfect face, the Mask of Golden Proportions 1.618 Rule. I think perfection is possible. Just difficult.  

[SkeletonPhoenix]

A perfect bieng can not exisit mainly due to the arguments of the others. A perfect being would only think logicaly, be devoid of all emotions and would be neither good or evil. The Greeks made more convincing gods because each had its flaws. An example is that Zeus being married slept with alot of women. Also if god was perfect why would he create imperfect beings unless he was afraid that his creation {perfect Being} would destroy him then he wouldn't be perfect and there is the pardox. That if he creates a perfect being it might turn on him, but creating imperfect beings would be illogical.
Also why does he command us to belive in him? Is he afraid of losing control over his creations? or does he need us to belive in him for some reason beyond our knowing?

I also think that we are asking the wrong Question not If but How?

How was God aperfect being created he couldn't create himself?

If anybody would like to ADD to my veiw of perfection feel free I might have left somthing out.  

[Game Phreak Zero]

God is one of the most vindictive, violent characters in fiction. He endorsed genocide, infanticide, and murder. If this character is the ideal of perfection, I have no desire whatsoever to be perfect.  

[Sanguvixen]

Dathu

Muaethia

Dathu

Actually...I..uh..believe in perfection. sweatdrop

You know someone that's completely perfect, then? Or believe that one's life can become perfect in time, with no stress or worry? Please explain what you mean by 'perfection' from your point of view.

Yes and no on both accounts. But before I begin I would to say that I think Redem's take on the definition of "perfect" is a little off from the actual definition in respect to it being unchanging and to it being more than one. This is primarily due to "perfection" being a word of opinion and perception, such as better, sexier, and prettier, “beauty is in the eye of beholder,” and yet also a universal standard.

What I mean by "I believe in perfection" is that I believe in it being possible. Have I ever met a perfect human being? No. Have I ever known or heard of someone who has lived or is living a perfect life. No. Does that mean it is impossible? No. Perfection is possible. It is just incredibly difficult, and sometimes subject to personal standards. I think it is obvious that conditions can be perfect, such as perfect condition for plant growth. And there are other situations where “perfect” can apply. But to explain why I believe in a universal perfect, I will need to explain the observations that led to it.

I like art. I look at a lot of art. Some “only a mother could love” while others seem to be unusually popular. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or simply of personal preference, then why do some seem to appeal to people on a massive scale? If what is appealing is subject to culture, experiences, and taste, then why do some paintings appeal to many people from many cultures, life experiences, and tastes. The same can be said for music. I don’t think anyone would argue that different people have very different music tastes, and yet, even though these different people who lead different lives from different cultures can and will agree that a song, not even in their language, is good.

I’m ignoring foods, clothing, and other necessities, because these are requirements, not everywhere, but most developed cultures. Music and art are not needed in society they are a luxury.

Anyway, I believe that the reason that there are paintings, songs, pictures, and people who tend to appeal to mass majority is that they come close to perfection. When we discover the perfect song, picture, painting, face, it will appeal to everyone. Many people believe in a formula for the perfect face, the Mask of Golden Proportions 1.618 Rule. I think perfection is possible. Just difficult.

I think that in order for something to be perfect it must hold up to a universal standard...and that means very one must share the view that this or that is perfect. Not only is that difficult...it is almost unrealistic.

Somehow I think that it is not plausible to get such a unanimous vote on any one thing, or lifestyle. So even if you did meet a person you could deem perfect Dathu, I think we can all agree that there will be someone else out there to disagree.

As it stands I still view Perfection as being fantasy and not reality. It has to deal with perception...and perception can change.

However I am planning a little...expirement for the GD which is why I have revived this thread. I am going to post a picture of a circle...and ask the GD if they think that if that circle is perfect to them. I just want to see what kind of response I get.

I will let you know the results as they come.

 

[Sanguvixen]

Here is the link for those that are interested:

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16406089&page=1

It is my little GD experiment on the subject of perfection.

 

[Muaethia]

Replied, page 6. Some of the responses, though... this is why I never make topics in the GD, only reply to them sweatdrop . You'd probably have been better in the ED, including dictionary defenitions etc, otherwise it may have been moved to GD anyway eek  

[Sanguvixen]

Muaethia

Replied, page 6. Some of the responses, though... this is why I never make topics in the GD, only reply to them sweatdrop . You'd probably have been better in the ED, including dictionary defenitions etc, otherwise it may have been moved to GD anyway eek

I don't like how the ED overanalyzes things to the extreme. That and many of those elitists go around in troll accounts causing trouble. So I stay away from there.

There was some interesting responses. At least this much can be glanced from the experiment. There are two things that come into play when attempting to judge perfection. Preference(such as color), and Perception.

Hmmm...so obviously universal perfection is not plausable because you have to deal with preference, and perception. However self perfect might be.

 

[Muaethia]

Sanguvixen

Muaethia

Replied, page 6. Some of the responses, though... this is why I never make topics in the GD, only reply to them sweatdrop . You'd probably have been better in the ED, including dictionary defenitions etc, otherwise it may have been moved to GD anyway eek

I don't like how the ED overanalyzes things to the extreme. That and many of those elitists go around in troll accounts causing trouble. So I stay away from there.

There was some interesting responses. At least this much can be glanced from the experiment. There are two things that come into play when attempting to judge perfection. Preference(such as color), and Perception.

Hmmm...so obviously universal perfection is not plausable because you have to deal with preference, and perception. However self perfect might be.

Exactly. Everyone sees things differently, physically as well as their mental perceptions. For example, if you look at the circle from far away you can't see that the edges are pixilated, it just seems smooth.  

[Sanguvixen]

Muaethia

Sanguvixen

Muaethia

Replied, page 6. Some of the responses, though... this is why I never make topics in the GD, only reply to them sweatdrop . You'd probably have been better in the ED, including dictionary defenitions etc, otherwise it may have been moved to GD anyway eek

I don't like how the ED overanalyzes things to the extreme. That and many of those elitists go around in troll accounts causing trouble. So I stay away from there.

There was some interesting responses. At least this much can be glanced from the experiment. There are two things that come into play when attempting to judge perfection. Preference(such as color), and Perception.

Hmmm...so obviously universal perfection is not plausable because you have to deal with preference, and perception. However self perfect might be.

Exactly. Everyone sees things differently, physically as well as their mental perceptions. For example, if you look at the circle from far away you can't see that the edges are pixilated, it just seems smooth.

Yep...you know what that statement made me think of ? There are a lot of people who seem perfect from far away. Once you get up close and personal with them that illusion justs crumbles away.

Such as these people who think that "Jesus" and "God" is perfect. When you study the subject better...you figure out that the two arn't perfect at all!

 

[Dathu]

Sanguvixen

Dathu

Muaethia

Dathu

Actually...I..uh..believe in perfection. sweatdrop

You know someone that's completely perfect, then? Or believe that one's life can become perfect in time, with no stress or worry? Please explain what you mean by 'perfection' from your point of view.

Yes and no on both accounts. But before I begin I would to say that I think Redem's take on the definition of "perfect" is a little off from the actual definition in respect to it being unchanging and to it being more than one. This is primarily due to "perfection" being a word of opinion and perception, such as better, sexier, and prettier, “beauty is in the eye of beholder,” and yet also a universal standard.

What I mean by "I believe in perfection" is that I believe in it being possible. Have I ever met a perfect human being? No. Have I ever known or heard of someone who has lived or is living a perfect life. No. Does that mean it is impossible? No. Perfection is possible. It is just incredibly difficult, and sometimes subject to personal standards. I think it is obvious that conditions can be perfect, such as perfect condition for plant growth. And there are other situations where “perfect” can apply. But to explain why I believe in a universal perfect, I will need to explain the observations that led to it.

I like art. I look at a lot of art. Some “only a mother could love” while others seem to be unusually popular. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or simply of personal preference, then why do some seem to appeal to people on a massive scale? If what is appealing is subject to culture, experiences, and taste, then why do some paintings appeal to many people from many cultures, life experiences, and tastes. The same can be said for music. I don’t think anyone would argue that different people have very different music tastes, and yet, even though these different people who lead different lives from different cultures can and will agree that a song, not even in their language, is good.

I’m ignoring foods, clothing, and other necessities, because these are requirements, not everywhere, but most developed cultures. Music and art are not needed in society they are a luxury.

Anyway, I believe that the reason that there are paintings, songs, pictures, and people who tend to appeal to mass majority is that they come close to perfection. When we discover the perfect song, picture, painting, face, it will appeal to everyone. Many people believe in a formula for the perfect face, the Mask of Golden Proportions 1.618 Rule. I think perfection is possible. Just difficult.

I think that in order for something to be perfect it must hold up to a universal standard...and that means very one must share the view that this or that is perfect. Not only is that difficult...it is almost unrealistic.

Somehow I think that it is not plausible to get such a unanimous vote on any one thing, or lifestyle. So even if you did meet a person you could deem perfect Dathu, I think we can all agree that there will be someone else out there to disagree.

As it stands I still view Perfection as being fantasy and not reality. It has to deal with perception...and perception can change.

However I am planning a little...expirement for the GD which is why I have revived this thread. I am going to post a picture of a circle...and ask the GD if they think that if that circle is perfect to them. I just want to see what kind of response I get.

I will let you know the results as they come.

I agree that perfection is personal, in some cases, but I still believe in the possibility of universal perfection. But perfection, whether it be universal or personal, is still perfection. Being personal doesn't make it any less of what it is. I agree that from the viewpoint of this modern era, such a goal is unrealistic, but then so was space travle only two hundred years ago. As I said in my previous examples about art, music, and beauty, I think that there is evidence that universal standards of perfection exist. I guess the real question is not whether perfection or the pefect "blank" exists, but rather whether can we achieve it. On that note, I have no answer.