The Supernatural

[Dread Dionaea]

Um, for my part I was just taking what Sanguivixen said and trying to run with it out of boredom. See my first post? Yeah, that's my actual theory. I'm not defending things I said idly with no conviction or point. If you want to nitpick at my actual ideas feel free though.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

Aufstandkind

Um, for my part I was just taking what Sanguivixen said and trying to run with it out of boredom. See my first post? Yeah, that's my actual theory. I'm not defending things I said idly with no conviction or point. If you want to nitpick at my actual ideas feel free though.

You mentioned "energy signatures" and said that they had been found. I don't know what energy signatures are, so I asked, hoping you could provide me with an explanation or some links so I could look into it. I think you've misinterpreted the tone of my post.

EDIT: Although I think I misinterpreted the tone of some of your posts, too.  

[Dread Dionaea]

Yeah, probably. I do that.

When I said that I was just sort of musing. If all things have energy as has been put forth there's a possibility that a flare up of agression, fear, or other such extreme emotions it could leave behind trace elements of the event in natural materials. Regardless of whether or not this COULD happen the resulting gap between this leftover signal and actual "hauntings" is really difficult to branch. How would it play back? What would be the purpose of this?
I never said they'd been found. If I phrased it like that quote it and I'll explain what I meant. Oftentimes I'm godawful at expressing what I'm thinking and people interpret all sorts of things from what I say. I've had some people completely missunderstand what I said before in embarassing ways.
So, there are no links or sources. Just idle babble. There aren't any for my actual idea either. It's just something I came up with while watching the TV show in the OP with my boyfriend (who doesn't care either way and has no ideas of his own on this. He's very grounded in the physical world and doesn't care much at all for philosophy or musing).  

[Foetus In Fetu]

Well, it was this that threw me for a loop. Mostly because I'm sure I've heard the phrase "energy signature" before.

Aufstandkind

Energy signatures from people, aka ghosts, seem to show up most often in old buildings which are made from more natural materials.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, by the way.  

[Dread Dionaea]

No problem, sorry I got bitchy. Haha that's clearly another case of me not thinking things I say through. It's hard to find a way to express what I was trying to say, but I'll try. Ghostly figures, mysterious object transportation, unsual sounds--that's what I meant. In the tone of the post I was hypothetically stating that those were energy signatures.
Now in my actual theory as to why they'd show up in homes is simply that people have to be attached to a place to start fearing or wondering if something will show up, or in the case of historical buildings it would have to be planted in one's head. The nonexistance of ghost sightings involving primal man or humankind beyond a certain era mark has to do with the fact that people can't at all relate to it. It doesn't interest them, so they don't imagine it.  

[Sanguvixen]

Foetus In Fetu

Sanguvixen

The way I look at it one cannot refute that energy exists.

In a scientific sense, no, but in science 'energy' has a very rigid definition that you haven't used for the rest of your posts, which makes this point moot.

Sanguvixen

To me energy is supposed to be freeflowing. As long as energy is flowing freely the way it is supposed to you don't have problems. When energy however experiences an unnatural turn, twist, bump, or break, you can end up with some pretty dramatic things.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

Sanguvixen

What do you think of his idea?

No offense, but I think it's ad hoc, extraneous and indulgent.

Aufstandkind

Energy signatures

Such as?

Aufstandkind

Notice also that nobody sees ghosts of primeval man or other non-settled peoples, just the ones surrounded by buildings.

Assuming that people see 'ghosts' at all. It's more than likely that the reason people never see, say, neanderthals is psychological than because neanderthalian ghosts are any more non-existant than other ghosts.

The MoUsY spell-checker

Bladed Alchemist

Weel, I'd have to say that I believe that ghosts aren't real. ESP/Psychic abilities don't seem realistic, but we don't know everything, and I'm pretty sure that there are inactive parts of the brain... You never really know, but I'm not on its side.

I remember this from a few different books that I've read: it's true that we don't use all of our brains at once - if the whole brain was active at once, it would use so much energy that our bodies wouldn't be able to cope with it. However, the brain can grow depending on what it does. Functions that are more commonly used tend to have more brain capacity devoted to them.

I think you're kind of touching on the 10% myth. We do use the whole of our brain, but not all at once, and that's not even because it would "use so much energy that our bodies wouldn't be able to cope with it". Just one effect of having all of your neurones firing at the same time would be that all of your muscles would be spasming, since all of the nerves connected to them would be sending, sometimes conflicting, signals.

The brain works on a kind of binary system where each neurone can either be 'on' or 'off', with different combinations having different effects. At any one time only a portion of the brain will be "in use", but it is all allocated, and it is all used.

Sanguvixen

I can admit that things do happen than cannot be explained away by logic or science.

Yet people keep trying to explain them away in ways that at least sound logical or scientific. Hence, pseudoscience. The fact is that there are 'scientific' explanations; people just either don't know, or don't want to accept them.

Sanguvixen

The way you look at it my experience is just a story with no proof beyond my memory.

Which is why I don't even have to try to refute or explain it. Fact is, those glass things could just as easily have fallen off as a result of a number of forces that you weren't even aware of. Call it temporal and/or spatial summation of forces, call it ghosts. Either way, I doubt you measured air movement in your room in any scientific way or did any calculations regarding the forces on your ornaments; so you haven't discounted any other explanations, you've just assumed that the only possible explanation is 'supernatural'.

Sanguvixen

To me it is not a question of wether or not the Supernatural or Paranormal exists...it is a question of what is it?

To me, until there is reliable, empirical evidence that really cannot be explained by the current scientific system, it will always be a question of whether or not the 'supernatural' exists. You can't start explaining something until you know for sure that it's actually there.

Sanguvixen

If you go in looking for spirits, every odd thing that can happen can be turned around labed "Paranormal Activity."

Yes. It's very deus ex machina.

It's possible that there are entities, such as God or 'ghosts', that exist outside of science and cannot be detected or measured scientifically. (Just for the record, if there is reliable evidence of something, it falls into the scientific domain). However, these things are completely a matter of faith and, in my opinion, if your reason for being an atheist is that there is no proof that there is a God and yet you buy into the supernatural, you're a hypocrite. If you have some other reason for not believing in [a] [G/g]od, the former is not applicable to you.

The fact is that the 'supernatural' is completely undocumented in any empirical way. Many, if not all, situations claimed to be supernatural are just as easily and much more plausibly explained by the current body of scientific knowledge. That makes 'supernatural' explanations unnecessary, ad hoc and a violation of Occam's razor.

Finally, the words 'supernatural' and 'paranormal', 'ghost' and 'psychic', like 'god' are just buzzwords that are thrown around. If their meanings are even at all agreed-upon, they're very broad, which introduces a large element of subjectivity. I know I used the phrase deus ex machina earlier, and I'm sure the irony won't be lost on you; because the 'supernatural' has such a broad and subjective definition, it can be used to "explain" anything. It could manifest itself in any way, at any time: anything could be given a 'supernatural' explanation.

What am I talking about? Hmm...how do I put it?

Electricity fuels your home. When a power surge happens your home is basically without power for a little bit and then the power comes back on. However minor things such as fried electronics can occur, as can fires...especially when it comes to faulty wiring. Hell things might even blow up if have a electronic piece of equipment. I consider that a disruption in power and in a way it is not normal. It happens once in a while...but not all the time.

Do you know how a Tornado occurs? It occurs when you have cold air moving in a weather system and it comes head to head with warm air and that sudden exchange of wamrth and cold in a way disrupts each other causes a vortex, and from that vortex you get a this dramatic thing that is capable of severe descruction.

Hurricanes are quite similar as well.

Take a look at Earthquakes. That happens when stored up energy releases from within the earths crust, or when the pressure of two colliding plates cause one to buckle or crack.

Tsunami's are also created by underwater earthquakes...that there is a major example of a dramatic effect due to energy.

Volcanos blow thier top when the pressure gets to be too much, and there goes another dramatic event that is related to energy in some way or form.

Energy exists one way or another, and when they collide, disrupt, or exchange you can have dramatic effects.

Should Paranormal be real, I think it would have more to do with energy than "Souls or spirits".

I never assumed that the thing with things falling was "Supernatural". It is however above normal, so in a way can be considered Paranormal...because Paranormal means "Above normal".

Furthermore there is a distinct difference between the terms Supernatural and Paranormal. Supernatural deals in spirit and soul, and Paranormal deals with things that can be classified as "Above normal."

Sorry...air currents and stuff like that just don't explain why an unplugged electronic device...actually two mysteriously connect even though they were unconnected. They don't explain a system turning on, loading itself, or a controllerless system actually having a character moving around on a saved file.

You let me know when mathamatics can explain that, or air currents can explain that. I know that every single night I unplug all my electronics save for the heating lamp and heating rock that goes to my pet snake's enclosure. I know that I'm not making this up, and I know it wasn't some "Night terror". I had to get up once I got the courage to do so and turn my tv back off, and then I actually removed the extention cord that the power cords were plugged into and flung it outside room where it spent the night outside my door.

Air currents, drafts, maybe something completely scientific could explain those falling objects.

However, when you get woken up in the middle of the night with a system on, and no else in the home is awake, and you watch is bewilderment that KOS-MOS(The character in lead at the last time I played) is moving around, and then in another minute Albedo is laughing his head off on the TV screen...it's going to be pretty hard for anyone to convince you that what happened can be explained away by logic, science, air currents, or mathetimatical bull-s**t.

There are a lot of people that are blind, both theists and athiests. You can't deny the existance of something based on lack of evidence, but you can't prove it on the same turn.

You can't use memories for basis of truth, because even then they are unreliable and easily manipulated. What happened with that system is real to me because it made me on edge for about a month. I still unplug everything every night, and I still give my PS2 the evil glare every once in a while when I head to sleep.

You can look and tell me I'm making it up, or there is another explanation, but I don't care.

I agree though. It seems that most of the time so called Hauntings and stuff like that can be disproved or more accurately debunked. The ones that can't leave you with some serious head scratching.

I still debate wether or not to throw the things falling as just something unexplained and leave it as a seperate thing from system event. It's something wierd...

It is an example however of how people can mistake simple things as being more than what they are, as thiesm and theists have a tendacy to do that.

That system that turned on...still has me scratching my head. I am 100% prepared to called that a Paranormal event. It's above normal...or at least not normal. It's not supposed to happen.

I didn't turn it on and connect everything. My parents couldn't have because they were sleeping. No siblings were in the home at the time because none were living there.

The paper thing on my door was still in tact. I didn't turn on, and no one else turned it on. So tell me...what plugged the cords, turned both the TV and PS2 on, and began playing the game without the use of a controller?

 

[Sanguvixen]

Foetus In Fetu

Well, it was this that threw me for a loop. Mostly because I'm sure I've heard the phrase "energy signature" before.

Aufstandkind

Energy signatures from people, aka ghosts, seem to show up most often in old buildings which are made from more natural materials.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, by the way.

I've heard it too...used in everything from being in reference to geology, predicting earth-quakes and tsunami's, to paranormal and supernatural...things.

 

[Dread Dionaea]

I prefer the word "preternatural" to "paranormal" just because of the connotations of the latter word. The former carries a connotation that it will eventually be explicable whereas "paranormal" reminds me of those annoying kids that claim they're reincarnated dragons.  

[Sanguvixen]

Aufstandkind

I prefer the word "preternatural" to "paranormal" just because of the connotations of the latter word. The former carries a connotation that it will eventually be explicable whereas "paranormal" reminds me of those annoying kids that claim they're reincarnated dragons.

I've never heard of the world "Preternatural". I prefer the term Paranormal over Supernatural because Supernatural reminds me of things like Superman and those Marvel Comic Heros with "Supernatural ablities".

That and Paranormal doesn't necessarily have to be linked to a religous or theistic view of things.

 

[Dread Dionaea]

I heard it in an old movie, honestly. I admit it. It's a real word at least.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

Sanguvixen

Energy exists one way or another, and when they collide, disrupt, or exchange you can have dramatic effects.

Energy is not a material thing. The above examples of earthquakes, tsunamis and tornadoes occur due to interactions between matter; energy is inherent, but when we say a "release of energy" causes an earthquake, it's more like potential energy is converted to kinetic energy (and heat). What generally happens during an earthquake is that tectonic plates, which are constantly moving as they float on the asthenosphere, tend to rub up against eachother. When two plates meet, friction may temporarily halt movement, and then there's a buildup of pressure that eventually causes them to slip, causing an earthquake. Energy is hardly the only factor.

Similarly, air currents form as a result of kinetic and heat energy as well as interactions between heated and cooled air, and air of different pressures. I don't see how you can be sceptical about the effects that air movement can have: tornadoes are a direct result of air movement as an example that you cited, so you know that air movement can have dramatic effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy

Quote:

In general, the word energy refers to a concept that can be paraphrased as "the potential for causing changes", and therefore one can say that energy is the cause of any change. The word is used in several different contexts. The use of the word in mainstream science has a precise, well-defined meaning, which is not the case, most often, with many other usages.

Energy is not material, it cannot 'collide'; it does not exist as a material thing on some metaphysical plane, and you're not using the agreed-upon scientific definition of the word by implying that it can or does.

Sanguvixen

Should Paranormal be real, I think it would have more to do with energy than "Souls or spirits".

If "the paranormal" is caused by the effect that energy has on matter, like everything else, then it could hardly be paranormal. Let's not argue about semantics: the paranormal is accepted to encompass events that transcend usual scientific explanations; that energy causes movement, heating, electrical current, etc. is most definitely within the scope of contemporary scientific thinking, although your personal definition of 'energy', whatever it is, may not be. How do you define 'energy', anyway?

Sanguvixen

Sorry...air currents and stuff like that just don't explain why an unplugged electronic device...actually two mysteriously connect even though they were unconnected. They don't explain a system turning on, loading itself, or a controllerless system actually having a character moving around on a saved file.

You let me know when mathamatics can explain that, or air currents can explain that.

When you prove this actually happened, then maybe I'll look for an explanation. I'm sick of being polite about stuff like this: from my point of view, it's far more likely that you're exaggerating, making this up, were hallucinating or dreaming or are experienceing false memory. Your claim lacks any kind of credibility.

Incidentally, if you can prove it, you should apply for the Randi prize.

Sanguvixen

You can't deny the existance of something based on lack of evidence, but you can't prove it on the same turn.

True. Science is an inductive system: it does not prove, it only disproves. Lack of evidence does not prove that something is non-existant, but if you go around on the assumption that just because there's no evidence to the contrary, something does exist or is likely to exist, you'll find yourself supporting everything from invisible flying unicorns to God Himself.

Sanguvixen

You can look and tell me I'm making it up, or there is another explanation, but I don't care.

Funnily enough, I don't actually care whether people believe it was a 'supernatural' or 'paranormal' event. What bothers me is when people assert that particular events can only have a 'paranormal' explanation, or that they are definitely outside the domain of contemporary science, especially when they use specious logic to support this contention.

Aufstandkind

I heard it in an old movie, honestly. I admit it. It's a real word at least.

I think 'praeternatural' is a bit shady. It's not very rigidly defined.  

[Dread Dionaea]

Considering I found it in the original "Haunting on Hill House" when I was ten and I have been using it since because I thought it sounded neat, I'll drink to that. I have a habit of finding words in literature and film that drop right into my vocabulary with no hesitation.  

[Sanguvixen]

I took so long typing up my reply that my account logged out! All lost! No! Screw it! I'm not typing up my response again...at least not right now.

Instead I'll just post the latter half of it:

Take a look at all of this:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyy5PpBZh1M

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJvVPYAzKik

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9rc8iiaCSA

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw1aJYD-5do

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWo397_Zr0Y

This is the Thermal Full Body Apparation they "Caught". Different episode BTW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gistqdCjGvw

I'll have to refind the clip of a moving chair that comes from another Episode.

I have to jet, but I'll come back to try to re-type what I lost...but until then enjoy that episode of TAPS.

TAPS is actually a real group, they don't doctor up thier stuff, and they are local in my area(sort of). I've seen thier black TAPS vans quite a few times while on the High-way. Not all thier investigations turn up stuff since they go in with the intent to disprove or debunk things.

Not all the investigations air on TV either.

 

[Foetus In Fetu]

There are a couple of assumptions made in the twenty minutes or so that I watched of that programme (and that was pretty generous of me, seriously). Firstly that paranormal activity creates an electromagnetic field and from that the fallacious backwards assumption that if there's an electromagnetic field there must be paranormal activity.

Secondly that "Electronic Voice Phenomena" aren't just apophenia. They give due process a nod but they don't even present alternative scientific explanations, let alone debunk them; they just assume that all of these things must be the result of paranormal activity. In fact they go in there under the assumption that paranormal activity will ensue.

I doubt that their 'findings' are peer reviewed, and between that and the fact that it's a "docu-soap", I seriously don't consider it to be a credible source of evidence.  

[Sanguvixen]

I'm a pretty big skeptic in a lot of areas. If you show me a video or a EVP and you have to point it out to me, and I can't find it myself upon the first viewing...than...I'm not going to take it into consideration.

Only maybe 2 or 3 things TAPS ever caught actually was very easy to see or catch even for someone who didn't know what they were looking for to see.

The first would have to be the thing they caught on Thermal, that looked...like a soldier or something to me.

The second....would have to be an EVP and I don't remember exactly which episode it was in. It was one of the only ones where you didn't have to stretch it to find something.

The third would have to be that part in the Hotel, where a glass shattered on the bed stand, and a door that humanly you cannot latch because the latch doesn't work opened, closed, and latched by itself on Camera.

None of these really prove anything. If you watch thier episodes you'll see how they take quite a scientific approach to thier investigations. If more and more of those so called Ghost Hunters that plague the planet took the same approach, I think you would find many so called hauntings and stuff debunked. There would be less places that can claim to be haunted because in reality what they are seeing an experiencing is simply normal.

I will admit I'm not too well versed in some areas of science. I bring up energy though because it is simply an idea I toy with. Many things in nature happen as a result of energy and are quite dramatic.

What I consider energy may or may not have a firm scientific foundation...but I don't want in to that. However if all Paranormal and Supernatural things really are just the result of energy interacting in a way we can't yet understand...than maybe there is nothing above normal about Paranormal Activity, and maybe there is nothing super natural about supernatural occurances so to speak.

What I'm trying to get to is that maybe it is all just simply normal and we don't understand that yet. That one investigator put it well. We didn't used to understand thunderstorms and lightening. For all we knew the gods were pissed at us or something. Now we know that lightning and thunder have very logical explantions that don't require the inclusions of a god or a diety.

Paranormal stuff could be same way, right? I think one day we'll understand it, and if it is what I assume it to be, it will be one step closer in the right direction of moving away from that which can destory us.

Human beings want to ask questions when they don't understand things. In the process I think we ask unnecessary questions and in that turn create our own enigma's. So many thiests(such as my brother) are into psueoscience and fantasy science, and claim that something cannot come from nothing without the aid of a Diety. Human beings in a way limit thier abliity to understand by trapping themselves within a certain way of seeing and perceiving things.

To me the Universe is something that has always been here. It has no beginning and no end. Existance of various liveforms are a different story. They have a beginning, and they have a end.

The reason why we don't understand as much as we can is because we limit ourselves into thinking that all must be relevent to us, or it isn't imporant. Time must be relevent to us. The universe and it's start must be relevent to us.

The Paranormal and Supernatural are often viewed the same way as relevent to us, and our understanding of things. Parts of the Paranormal just...seem like a lot of bunk.

A lot of it can be explained way. You are however left with a few tangible things that you can't explain away. That part of Paranormal interests me. Maybe if we can figure out what is behind that part of Paranormal that is real, than maybe would can understand our universe, and ourselves better.

The closest we can come to figuring out wether there really is an afterlife or not, or wether a god really does exist or not, is to figure out what plays behind the parts of the paranormal that cannot be explained away by science or complicated mathamatics.

Those are the parts you can interact, observe, photograph, video-tape, or simply record.

I try to follow it closely while being objective and keeping an open mind.