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 Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:59 pm
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alteregoivy Have you ever had stage fright, or felt very nervous about something coming up? No imagine that you can't turn that feeling off. For hours at a time, no reason at all, your heart is racing, palms sweating, breathing heavy, can't sit still... With panic attacks, you honestly think you are having a heart attack and may die. Some people call an ambulance because they think they are having a heart attack! But it turns out to be anxiety, and that's where it becomes an illness. When your brain is screaming at you all the time, "DON'T DO THAT! DANGER! STOP! NO RUN! I DON'T KNOW BUT DO SOMETHING! AHHHHHHH!!!!" all day every day, it's kind of hard to perform normal activities.
Oh you were talking about that kind of anxiety... okay, then yeah.
I thought you were talking about like school stress anxiety.
alteregoivy That's just it. No matter how hard I tried to hide it, everyone could tell I was sad all the time. I tried to function, I really did. But then I lost friends because I was a downer, and I started to be unable to continue my school work, and I thought... You know, if I weren't here, people who knew me would be sad for a while, but then they'd get over it and move on and be much happier without me in the end. However, parents will not ever get over the loss of a child like that. I realized that my parents would forever blame themselves, wondering what they did wrong, what they could have done to make it better. I didn't realize that, though, until I saw how absolutely terrified they were by what I had almost done. I really believed that I was doing everyone a favor by killing myself because I couldn't fix myself no matter how hard I tried.Imagine you never want to laugh or smile. It's like a weight and pain in your chest that just won't go away, and you're fighting back tears nearly all the time. Can you keep smiling through that all day every day and pretend that nothing's wrong? When life seems like an endless succession of days with no happiness and no hope of ever finding any.... I know you would say "Just snap out of it!" or think that you could deal with it... But it's been proven that there's a chemical imbalance in the brain that's responsible in some cases, and so it's just not that simple. There's treatment, but it's a hard, long process. Sure, there are people who just use it as an excuse, but... For some of us, it's very real, and we really do our best to get by.
No, this is just it. This is what I get every time I say my opinion.
You're saying the exact same thing my friends told me.
It's ok. I already know, after making my friends upset, that you
have something going on in your brain. I know
the chemicals are ******** up and making you feel this way. I KNOW IT.
But the thing is, YOU also have to try think about it from OUR
perspective. Like I already said, it DOESN'T MATTER that you can't
control the chemicals in your head or how you feel. It STILL makes
people around you feel bad. It just does, okay? You think we don't know
you try? We know. Okay? We know. But the problem is often times
people who are depressed DON'T realize that people KNOW and CARE
about them. You say you actually thought you'd do everyone a favor
by killing yourself? See? That's where the problem is. NO ONE is thinking
like that except yourself. Sure, people move on. Sure, people forget.
But what can you do about that? What do you expect them to do? Cry
and wail and never move on and keep sulking about you and your
depression and be sad forever? Please tell me that's not what you want.
Plus, would you do the same for them? If they happen to pass away in
an accident, would you remember them forever and mourn and grieve
them forever? Do you think they'd actually want you to do that, or would
they rather have you move on?
And trust me, I live in pain everyday. You think I don't know what's wrong
with the world? I'll tell you what's wrong: war, rape, murder, poverty,
torture, corruption, homophobia, sexism, racism, starvation, etc, etc.
These things kill me everyday. But the difference between me and you
is that I actually try to live up my life and help the others who need help.
I DON'T PRETEND things are okay. I KNOW they are not but at least I TRY
TO FIX them. I know these things will never go away, but what good will
it do to sit there and cry about it? What's it gonna do, huh? Sitting there,
sulking about it and crying about it is just as bad as people who sit
there all day and pray and hope somehow things will fix themselves up.
I don't THINK I could deal with it, I DO. I run through all the thorns and
needles, and I come out scabbed and in pain, but at least I came out in
the end. At the end of the day I'm only happy that I'm alive, because I
know many people aren't as fortunate as I am even if they wanted to live.
Happiness ISN'T SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED. It's something
that has to be fought for, to sacrifice for, and to cry for in order to get
it into your grasp. And once it IS in your hand you have to catch it tightly
and never let go of it. Cherish it and treasure it. It's a hard and long fight,
but hey, NOBODY EVER SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE EASY.
I'm sorry if I came off as angry and mean. But can you see now?
This is how I feel every time my friends go all depressed. I'm sure you
are trying your best, but keep in mind that EVERYONE HAS THEIR
OWN PROBLEMS so blaming it on your brain or the other people
will only make YOU the unfair one.
alteregoivy Agreed. However, it's easy to say that when you're not dealing with them all day every day. It's hard when every tiny deviation from a set schedule sets off a first-class temper tantrum. I'm not excusing it, I'm just trying to explain why a lot of adults eventually seem to just give up and give in.
Then they are not fit to be guiding these special ed students.
Try growing up in a strict Asian family. The parents are so resolute
no one can ever bend them. There's always only the child giving in and
listening to the parents; there's no such thing as the parent giving in
and listening to the child. It's abominable by our standards.
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:55 pm
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cellophane tape Well whether you meant it or not, a lot of your questions seemed accusatory of people on this thread talking about their depression or autism.
Then you have issues with context, srsly.
cellophane tape And I don't know much about autism, but you clearly don't understand depression. At all.
Maybe I don't, maybe I do. Maybe I've lived with it my whole life, maybe that is just a hypothetical and is complete bullshit.
cellophane tape There's still a real stigma surrounding therapy and even people who need help are really reluctant to go.
And depression does make you feel worthless and alone.
Ahuh. If you are so worthless, then why bring it up? Why tell people how you feel? They won't care, will they? After all, you are so worthless that noone cares, and those that do? they're misguided aren't they. They shouldn't care for you. Because you are so worthless. what is the point in bringing it up? They won't care.
The only reason you would bring it up is to get attention. It really is that simple. They would only bring it up because they don't think they are worthless. Because they know people care. They only bring up their depression because they aren't depressed.
cellophane tape So it is a really big step to talk to someone.
And not that people don't milk it for attention or even completely pretend to have a problem so people will feel sorry for them.
But it's completely unfair to assume that if someone says they are depressed that they are automatically an attention whore just because you knew a girl who was.
Yeah... That's really messed up.
You are mixing up me and the other one here, but sure, why not. Yes it sucks to have any disorder, but that isn't the point. People do fake it, and people do exagerate. And while I have no idea about the amount of people who exagerate, I expect that the people who fake being depressed, or who claim to have an autistic spectrum disorder, or anything else constitute the majority.
cellophane tape Not just depression.
To assume that anyone struggling with some kind of disorder is just in it for the attention is pretty sick.
cellophane tape I don't know who you hang out with or what they do...
But it's never fair to assume that somebody who says they have a mood disorder, learning disorder, etc. is just "being a d**k". -.-
Never said it was fair, but it would be stupid of anyone to say it isn't rational, or at least reasonable. And those people I mentioned? I don't hang out with them. They disgust me. The very idea of ******** with someone's trust like that is abhorrent. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:05 am
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=X-Sparker + AquaKiller= No, this is just it. This is what I get every time I say my opinion. You're saying the exact same thing my friends told me. It's ok. I already know, after making my friends upset, that you have something going on in your brain. I know the chemicals are ******** up and making you feel this way. I KNOW IT. But the thing is, YOU also have to try think about it from OUR perspective. Like I already said, it DOESN'T MATTER that you can't control the chemicals in your head or how you feel. It STILL makes people around you feel bad. It just does, okay? You think we don't know you try? We know. Okay? We know. But the problem is often times people who are depressed DON'T realize that people KNOW and CARE about them.
Then what do you expect us to do, honestly? If we can't talk to our friends about how we feel and try to share the troubles so that maybe they will become less for everyone, then what should we do? And if the message we get is, "Stop telling me about your problems! I can suck it up and deal with it, why can't you!?" that doesn't exactly seem to convey the caring you're talking about.
Maybe a better response instead of anger and frustration would be to say something like, "I understand that you're depressed and dealing with some hard things. But you need to get help for that from a professional, or find some other way of dealing with it. I care about you, I really do. Please get help; I can't be the only one to try."
=X-Sparker + AquaKiller= What do you expect them to do? Cry and wail and never move on and keep sulking about you and your depression and be sad forever? Please tell me that's not what you want.
Well, actually, yes. I've seen it happen, anyway. But of course that's not what I would want for them, and not what I would do if something happened to someone I loved. Of course I don't think that way anymore; that's just what I was thinking at the time, and as I said, I've learned better. I was mainly phrasing that way to make a point because it doesn't make an sense. Of course that's a bad way of thinking, but that's my point. That's what happens. It completely changes the way you think and the logic behind it. No rational, normal person would think that way. That's why it's a disease.
=X-Sparker + AquaKiller= And trust me, I live in pain everyday. You think I don't know what's wrong with the world? I'll tell you what's wrong: war, rape, murder, poverty, torture, corruption, homophobia, sexism, racism, starvation, etc, etc. These things kill me everyday. But the difference between me and you is that I actually try to live up my life and help the others who need help. I DON'T PRETEND things are okay. I KNOW they are not but at least I TRY TO FIX them. I know these things will never go away, but what good will it do to sit there and cry about it? What's it gonna do, huh? Sitting there, sulking about it and crying about it is just as bad as people who sit there all day and pray and hope somehow things will fix themselves up. I don't THINK I could deal with it, I DO. I run through all the thorns and needles, and I come out scabbed and in pain, but at least I came out in the end. At the end of the day I'm only happy that I'm alive, because I know many people aren't as fortunate as I am even if they wanted to live.
Again, why this is a disease. Actually, for a lot of people with depression, there isn't anything in particular that's wrong or terrible in their world, but they feel like s**t all the time anyway. We know that we're more fortunate than many others. It doesn't help. You said earlier you understood that it's our brains making us feel this way; I don't think you do. Obviously you're well equipped with mechanisms to deal with sadness and stress; people with depression aren't.
=X-Sparker + AquaKiller= Happiness ISN'T SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED. It's something that has to be fought for, to sacrifice for, and to cry for in order to get it into your grasp. And once it IS in your hand you have to catch it tightly and never let go of it. Cherish it and treasure it. It's a hard and long fight, but hey, NOBODY EVER SAID IT WAS GOING TO BE EASY.
Of course. Believe me, someone with depression, especially someone who's recovered like me, knows this better than anyone else.
=X-Sparker + AquaKiller= I'm sorry if I came off as angry and mean. But can you see now? This is how I feel every time my friends go all depressed. I'm sure you are trying your best, but keep in mind that EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN PROBLEMS so blaming it on your brain or the other people will only make YOU the unfair one.
I guess you never want to share any of your problems with your friends ever? That's kind of my definition of a friend.
How is explaining why we feel bad all the time unfair? Okay, it's a chemical imbalance in the brain. For some of us, at least, we are in therapy, we are doing something about it, we are trying to get better. How is it unfair to say, "This is why it's happening, and I'm working on it, just give me some time."? |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:09 am
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Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape There's still a real stigma surrounding therapy and even people who need help are really reluctant to go.
And depression does make you feel worthless and alone. Ahuh. If you are so worthless, then why bring it up? Why tell people how you feel? They won't care, will they? After all, you are so worthless that noone cares, and those that do? they're misguided aren't they. They shouldn't care for you. Because you are so worthless. what is the point in bringing it up? They won't care. The only reason you would bring it up is to get attention. It really is that simple. They would only bring it up because they don't think they are worthless. Because they know people care. They only bring up their depression because they aren't depressed.
Actually, it's not that simple. Maybe someone brings it up because they are trying to do the right thing. Because even though they feel worthless and alone, they are trying to tell themselves that they aren't, and bringing up those feelings with trusted friends does help. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:51 am
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Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Well whether you meant it or not, a lot of your questions seemed accusatory of people on this thread talking about their depression or autism. Then you have issues with context, srsly.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape And I don't know much about autism, but you clearly don't understand depression. At all. Maybe I don't, maybe I do. Maybe I've lived with it my whole life, maybe that is just a hypothetical and is complete bullshit.
I just stated that you don't understand depression.
That's not hypothetical.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape There's still a real stigma surrounding therapy and even people who need help are really reluctant to go.
And depression does make you feel worthless and alone. Ahuh. If you are so worthless, then why bring it up? Why tell people how you feel? They won't care, will they? After all, you are so worthless that noone cares, and those that do? they're misguided aren't they. They shouldn't care for you. Because you are so worthless. what is the point in bringing it up? They won't care.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre The only reason you would bring it up is to get attention. It really is that simple. They would only bring it up because they don't think they are worthless. Because they know people care. They only bring up their depression because they aren't depressed.
If someone is depressed and seeking help, they're probably really vulnerable and trying to get help because they know they need it.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape So it is a really big step to talk to someone.
And not that people don't milk it for attention or even completely pretend to have a problem so people will feel sorry for them.
But it's completely unfair to assume that if someone says they are depressed that they are automatically an attention whore just because you knew a girl who was.
Yeah... That's really messed up. You are mixing up me and the other one here, but sure, why not. Yes it sucks to have any disorder, but that isn't the point. People do fake it, and people do exagerate. And while I have no idea about the amount of people who exagerate, I expect that the people who fake being depressed, or who claim to have an autistic spectrum disorder, or anything else constitute the majority.
Of course some people just want attention. And they probably have their own set of issues.
But there's no reason for you to assume that if someone is open about a disorder that they just want attention.
Even skepticism I understand.
But you seem to be very aggressive and spiteful towards people who talk openly about their depression.
Unless you treat everybody like that...
But unless that's the case, there's no reason to think that way about someone you don't even know.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Not just depression.
To assume that anyone struggling with some kind of disorder is just in it for the attention is pretty sick. Not as sick as the people who manipulate others by pretending.
It's irrational to assume that of someone.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape I don't know who you hang out with or what they do...
But it's never fair to assume that somebody who says they have a mood disorder, learning disorder, etc. is just "being a d**k". -.- Never said it was fair, but it would be stupid of anyone to say it isn't rational, or at least reasonable. And those people I mentioned? I don't hang out with them. They disgust me. The very idea of ******** with someone's trust like that is abhorrent.
Have you conducted a poll? Have you brought a group of volunteers into a room, asked how many of them had any specific disorder, then interviewed the people who raised their hands to see what percentage of them were manipulative dicks?
No, it's reasonable, by a large stretch. But it's much more reasonable to assume that someone asking for help really needs it.
And if they don't, unless you have reason to believe that theyre "just faking", you should offer it. Because what if they aren't faking?
How the hell do you think it would make someone feel if they were suicidal and they were really scared that they might hurt themselves and came to you for help, and you told them to stop bitching and quit being an attention whore?
I don't mean to offend people who struggle or have struggled with depression, but at that moment that person is very fragile and should be met with understanding and sensativity. Even if they are faking. Because they might not be. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:55 am
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alteregoivy Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape There's still a real stigma surrounding therapy and even people who need help are really reluctant to go.
And depression does make you feel worthless and alone. Ahuh. If you are so worthless, then why bring it up? Why tell people how you feel? They won't care, will they? After all, you are so worthless that noone cares, and those that do? they're misguided aren't they. They shouldn't care for you. Because you are so worthless. what is the point in bringing it up? They won't care. The only reason you would bring it up is to get attention. It really is that simple. They would only bring it up because they don't think they are worthless. Because they know people care. They only bring up their depression because they aren't depressed.Actually, it's not that simple. Maybe someone brings it up because they are trying to do the right thing. Because even though they feel worthless and alone, they are trying to tell themselves that they aren't, and bringing up those feelings with trusted friends does help.
It is that simple, and you have just said it with the bolded.
The fact that the person recognises that they have people who care for them, who see them as more than useless and who actually value them shows that they don't actually feel worthless or alone.
If you felt worthless and alone you would not tell anyone because you 'realise' that they won't care. If you are worthless and alone, telling them would just result in a dismissal or a half-hearted attempt at sympathy. The only reason you would tell anyone is because you don't actually believe you are alone, or worthless or should be scrubbed from existence. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:32 am
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cellophane tape When you're replying to someone and the subject of your sentence is "you", it seems like you're talking to that person. That's not my problem with context, it's you're problem with grammar.
lol
I Maybe I don't, maybe I do. Maybe I've lived with it my whole life, maybe that is just a hypothetical and is complete bullshit.
The bolded is the 'that' which is the hypothetical.
cellophane tape That's how depression can feel. Which answers your earlier question about why people avoid therapy, no?
I know that's how it makes you feel.
In my first post in this thread, I If you were depressed you sure as hell wouldn't be telling anyone about it because that would imply that you thought people actually care, that you matter, that you aren't completely worthless and deserve to be erased from existence. By telling people about it you betray that you aren't depressed and are only doing it for attention, and that you are a manipulative arsehole.
Viscious circle, yes.
celophane tape That's not true. It's a huge step to admit that you need help if you're depressed. If someone is depressed and seeking help, they're probably really vulnerable and trying to get help because they know they need it.
Good for them. But telling 'loved ones' about it is merely a cry for attention.
cellophane tape Why? What makes you so sure? Of course some people just want attention. And they probably have their own set of issues. But there's no reason for you to assume that if someone is open about a disorder that they just want attention. Even skepticism I understand. But you seem to be very aggressive and spiteful towards people who talk openly about their depression. Unless you treat everybody like that... But unless that's the case, there's no reason to think that way about someone you don't even know.
I seem agressive and spitefull to people who manipulate others by guilt tripping them into providing attention a nd leniency?
Good. I despise manipulation. And to brush it off as against 'someone I don't even know' ignores the very real people I have encountered IRL who do this.
But you are certainly right when you say "Of course some people just want attention. And they probably have their own set of issues."
I think that definitely has to be looked into, because i have no doubt that many of those people do have a disorder, just of a different kind. And until there is a real 'attention demanding disorder' diagnosis as I jokingly called it in an earlier post, then those people cannot get the help that they actually need. But they are manipulative ******** who toy with with others for their own gratification, disorder or no.
cellophane tape Doesn't matter. It's irrational to assume that of someone.
It is naive to assume other wise.
cellophane tape Well then where do you get this logic from? [...] No, it's reasonable, by a large stretch.
lol. NO! YES!
cellophane tape And if they don't, unless you have reason to believe that theyre "just faking", you should offer it. Because what if they aren't faking? How the hell do you think it would make someone feel if they were suicidal and they were really scared that they might hurt themselves and came to you for help, and you told them to stop bitching and quit being an attention whore?
I have spelled it out in all me posts so far, and I will go through it again.
Someone is depressed and is going to commit suicide. That sucks, and if i know about it, I will help them work through it as best I can.
But if that person was 'really scared that they might hurt themselves and came to you for help' , well, that implies that they recognise that I care for them. That being the case that, they don't actually feel that way. Therefore, anything that like that is merely a stunt. If they really felt like that, they would decide to go through with it or not on their own, because they 'recognise' that no one else will actually care. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:31 pm
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Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape When you're replying to someone and the subject of your sentence is "you", it seems like you're talking to that person. That's not my problem with context, it's you're problem with grammar. lol
Louis-Auguste Robespierre I Maybe I don't, maybe I do. Maybe I've lived with it my whole life, maybe that is just a hypothetical and is complete bullshit. The bolded is the 'that' which is the hypothetical.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape That's how depression can feel. Which answers your earlier question about why people avoid therapy, no? I know that's how it makes you feel. In my first post in this thread, I If you were depressed you sure as hell wouldn't be telling anyone about it because that would imply that you thought people actually care, that you matter, that you aren't completely worthless and deserve to be erased from existence. By telling people about it you betray that you aren't depressed and are only doing it for attention, and that you are a manipulative arsehole. Viscious circle, yes.
It's like saying that if someone's smiling, they must not be sad. They might still be sad.
Emotions are complicated.
The mind is complicated.
To define depression with a ridiculous paradox based off of your over-simplified ideas about how the minds of others work is ridiculous.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre celophane tape That's not true. It's a huge step to admit that you need help if you're depressed. If someone is depressed and seeking help, they're probably really vulnerable and trying to get help because they know they need it. Good for them. But telling 'loved ones' about it is merely a cry for attention.
Who the hell do you suggest, the family dog?
Loved ones should be the first to know.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Why? What makes you so sure? Of course some people just want attention. And they probably have their own set of issues. But there's no reason for you to assume that if someone is open about a disorder that they just want attention. Even skepticism I understand. But you seem to be very aggressive and spiteful towards people who talk openly about their depression. Unless you treat everybody like that... But unless that's the case, there's no reason to think that way about someone you don't even know. I seem agressive and spitefull to people who manipulate others by guilt tripping them into providing attention a nd leniency?
That's what bothers me.
There's not reason to assume someone is lying about depression, autism, or ADD just because they say they have it.
And this is from someone who believes that most cases of ADD in kids in America are just psychiatrists who are too quick to hand out adderall and parents who think there's something wrong with their kid if they act, well, like children.
You should give people that chance. You don't know what they're dealing with until you get to know them.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre Good. I despise manipulation. And to brush it off as against 'someone I don't even know' ignores the very real people I have encountered IRL who do this.
You clearly don't understand depression. Why do you think you can tell the difference between someone who's looking for attention and someone who isn't?
Louis-Auguste Robespierre But you are certainly right when you say "Of course some people just want attention. And they probably have their own set of issues." I think that definitely has to be looked into, because i have no doubt that many of those people do have a disorder, just of a different kind. And until there is a real 'attention demanding disorder' diagnosis as I jokingly called it in an earlier post, then those people cannot get the help that they actually need. But they are manipulative ******** who toy with with others for their own gratification, disorder or no.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Doesn't matter. It's irrational to assume that of someone. It is naive to assume other wise.
In this case, potentially cruel as well.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Well then where do you get this logic from? [...] No, it's reasonable, by a large stretch. lol. NO! YES!
And I'm saying that it's reasonable by your logic maybe.
But it's a really far stretch for anyone that has a healthy ammount of trust in people.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape And if they don't, unless you have reason to believe that theyre "just faking", you should offer it. Because what if they aren't faking? How the hell do you think it would make someone feel if they were suicidal and they were really scared that they might hurt themselves and came to you for help, and you told them to stop bitching and quit being an attention whore? I have spelled it out in all me posts so far, and I will go through it again. Someone is depressed and is going to commit suicide. That sucks, and if i know about it, I will help them work through it as best I can.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre But if that person was 'really scared that they might hurt themselves and came to you for help' , well, that implies that they recognise that I care for them. That being the case that, they don't actually feel that way. Therefore, anything that like that is merely a stunt. If they really felt like that, they would decide to go through with it or not on their own, because they 'recognise' that no one else will actually care.
Someone being suicidal might not technically want to die, it's just an easy way out.
And you can still realize that that's incredibly stupid if you're depressed and suicidal.
How do I explain, for me it was more of a struggle between wanting to get better and wanting to end it.
And I a lot of the time I would seem completely fine, most of the time I was just very unenthusiastic and withdrawn, and the moments were I was really dangerously upset were rare. Like, I would consider death casually, but it took a lot to get me dangerously close to attempting.
And I never told anybody that I was suicidal until after because I didn't want to upset anybody and I couldn't trust anyone, even my therapist, enough not to put me on heavy medication or anything.
But I told a few people that I needed help.
That's why what you're saying pisses me off so much. Because at that point you're already very fragile and desperate for someone to make a difference. And if I had gone to somebody like you it would have really upset me.
And then I have had friends hint to me that they were suicidal. And I have no doubt that they needed help.
It's way more complicated than you make it out to be.
Study depression on the internet for a few hours or casually take a psych class and then come talk to me. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:46 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:18 pm
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I've yet to see some one actually relate mental illnesses
AND religion.
Religion IS mental disease.
For example:
"If you have a disability in your brain, that makes you see and feel things that are not there, that deprives your brain the ability to understand and see reality, for what it really is, and on top of that, this disability is contagious, then you have yourself a mental disease.
I don't think I need to explain how religion is contagious."
On another note, why is it that the people with the most struggles in life, such as in disabilities, automatically turn to God as their answer.
Why would a "loving and merciful god" bestow this pain and torture upon them?
Also I have barely read anything about PHYSICAL disabilities.
Maybe because this thread is based solely on mental disabilities, idk.
But I'd like to say that physical disabilities are a different hardship.
And no amount of medication can fix them.
For schizophrenia, I can't imagine how horrible that must be.
IRL, I have an atheist friend who is schizophrenic.
I remember her telling me when she takes a test there are voices that tell her which answers to pick, and they're always the wrong ones.
But she's an awesome person and keeps her schizophrenia on the DL.
And then I have another friend, whom I suspect is schizophrenic,
that claims to talk to God (now imagine being an atheist and hearing this, lol). This person though has a lot of mental issues, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're also schizo.
=X-Sparker + AquaKiller= As for autism, I've seen several special ed kids in school who are allowed to cut in front of the lunch line simply because they are autistic. And one of the kids were especially bad. He was just a simple a*****e. When he found out the school stopped selling soda because of the whole promoting health thing, he was kicking the gates to the cafeteria and screaming and yelling and cursing. Honestly, I don't think someone who can't behave themselves deserve a special privilege. How would giving in to their demands and letting them do or say what they want help them fit into society better? They'll only get used to having privileges and blow up on other people later when they get to the point in life where people won't be nice or lenient on them anymore. I think kids like this actually need extra harshness and strictness to govern them, since they can't govern themselves. Society in itself is a system of restrictions and limits and if they can't meet that, they can't survive in this world.
Not all autistic kids are attention whores.
I'm in the ESE program at school so I see a lot of these kids,
and their main issue is they can't accept CHANGE, when something is different or out of the ordinary they go into panic mode.
But it doesn't help that their parents are usually spoiling them and giving them what they want, when all they need is a little discipline.
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:34 pm
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Well I don't know if you could say Religion is a mental disease my dear rapist, but as to how Friedrich Nietzsche described it "Slave Morality" But very close. What's more is you can cast Religion away, as to a disease you can't simply say "I don't believe I have this" and it would become so.
I don't know why they turn to God for answers though... instead of them asking "Why did you make me like this?" they should be asking "Why do you ******** things up on purpose?" Well I can answer that: because he enjoys it.
Quote: As for autism, I've seen several special ed kids in school who are allowed to cut in front of the lunch line simply because they are autistic. And one of the kids were especially bad. He was just a simple a*****e. When he found out the school stopped selling soda because of the whole promoting health thing, he was kicking the gates to the cafeteria and screaming and yelling and cursing. Honestly, I don't think someone who can't behave themselves deserve a special privilege. How would giving in to their demands and letting them do or say what they want help them fit into society better? They'll only get used to having privileges and blow up on other people later when they get to the point in life where people won't be nice or lenient on them anymore. I think kids like this actually need extra harshness and strictness to govern them, since they can't govern themselves. Society in itself is a system of restrictions and limits and if they can't meet that, they can't survive in this world.
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:07 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:21 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:40 pm
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cellophane tape Okay, my bad, but it doesn't change the fact that it clearly seemed accusitory of the people in this thread, as did the post that preceded it.
Nah, it really didn't.
cellophane tape Yes... But you completely ignored what I said.
No I didn't. The 'maybe maybe maybe' sentence was pointing out the fact that this is the internet, and I could be anyone and very well could have a decent understanding of depression.
And then you went on a tirade against the word hypothetical.
I thought that maybe by pointing that you you would learn not to make assumptions about people on the internet.
cellophane tape But that's not a logical conclusion to draw from the fact that depression makes you feel helpless and insignificant. It's really hard to talk to people about depression, but it's not reasonable to assume that it's impossible.
I never said it was impossible to talk about. I said that you wouldn't because, if you think people dont care about you, then there is absolutely no point in telling them you feel like s**t. NONE.
Dismissing it with a nonsensical comparison with a smile, or by saying 's**t's compoicated!' is just silly.
Also, 'defining depression'? I didn't do anything of the sort. I pointed out one effect of depression.
cellophane tape Telling loved ones that you need help when you're depressed is a sign for attention? Who the hell do you suggest, the family dog? Loved ones should be the first to know.
The dog? nah, it won't be able to help. I dunno, though. Maybe, just maybe a professional might.
Again, look at what i am actually saying. If you think these people don't care about you, what is the point in telling them?
cellophane tape No, you seem aggressive and spiteful of anyone claims to be struggling with certain types of disorders. Those who are and aren't lying. That's what bothers me. There's not reason to assume someone is lying about depression, autism, or ADD just because they say they have it. And this is from someone who believes that most cases of ADD in kids in America are just psychiatrists who are too quick to hand out adderall and parents who think there's something wrong with their kid if they act, well, like children. You should give people that chance. You don't know what they're dealing with until you get to know them.
When you go to a perfectly normal school and almost everyone there claims to have a disorder of some kind, there are three reasonable reasons for this:
1: Either the frequency of these dissorders among the general population is downlplayed/just plain wrong, and I doubt that, because if it were, psych's would pounce on that the instant that was found out.
2: The school in question is a statistical anomaly. Though when you have many schools in the area with the same situation, and then find out from people that live in other cities that the students in schools there seem to claim similar incidences of depression (which is by far the most common claim) that idea goes out the window...
3: Those people in excess of the expected sufferers of depression are lying their arses off.
cellophane tape But you don't know the difference. Certainly not at first glance. You clearly don't understand depression. Why do you think you can tell the difference between someone who's looking for attention and someone who isn't?
I never said I knew the difference at first glance. Nice way to straw man there. Maybe this is a generalisation borne of repeated meetings with people who claim that they have pretended to be depressed? Maybe not. Maybe I know perfectly well about depression, having lived with it my whole life, maybe not.
I actually meant it would be better the get a better understanding of minor instances of Malingering, in direct contrast with Münchausen's. -.-
cellophane tape No, it's paranoid to assume the worst in someone. In this case, potentially cruel as well.
This isn't an assumption, however. This is a reaction borne of repeated experience. I dare say that your assumption that I must be hostile at 'first glance' is irrational.
cellophane tape Read the "..." And I'm saying that it's reasonable by your logic maybe. But it's a really far stretch for anyone that has a healthy ammount of trust in people.
ahuh
cellophane tape Would you? How do you know they're not just trying to get your sympathy?
Well if they were to say they were 'really scared that they might hurt themselves and came to me for help' well that is a pretty big indication that they are bullshitting. After all, if didn't care about them, why would they come to me? If they recognise that I do care about them, and am able to help, then they certainly don't feel worthlless and alone.
cellophane tape That's why what you're saying pisses me off so much. Because at that point you're already very fragile and desperate for someone to make a difference. And if I had gone to somebody like you it would have really upset me.
It might piss you off, but please try and read what I am actually saying, and not some "he doesn't like meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee crying " rant.
cellophane tape It's way more complicated than you make it out to be.
I am pointing out one aspect, and have in no way tried to characterise depression as an illness.
All I have said is this:
1: Person claims to be depressed. To feel worthless, uncared for, and that they should be simply erased form existence.
2: Person then goes on to inform others, non-professionals, about this. That is, they tell people that by their claimed understanding, DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEM.
3: Person, by that act, admits that they recognise that they are not worthless and that there are people that care.
Please address that, and not strawmen created to fit your outrage. |
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Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:57 pm
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First may I say that, in the future, please do not remove important part of my response.
Why should I respond to your entire post when you pick and choose what you have the best response for?
If the post is getting too long then go ahead and cut te redundant parts, I know they're there.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Okay, my bad, but it doesn't change the fact that it clearly seemed accusitory of the people in this thread, as did the post that preceded it. Nah, it really didn't.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre With publicised depression I often encounter people who use it to be the center of attention--and don't lie, you do too. If you were depressed you sure as hell wouldn't be telling anyone about it because that would imply that you thought people actually care, that you matter, that you aren't completely worthless and deserve to be erased from existence. By telling people about it you betray that you aren't depressed and are only doing it for attention, and that you are a manipulative arsehole.
That at least seems directed completely at them and at the end of an already judgemental and aggressive post.
So from that it is reasonable to guess that you have no problem offending people.
Your 'hypothetical' questions on the next page were in response to someone who had posted about depression and started with "Are you really depressed?" Why would you ask a hypothetical person that? You were responding to someone and the subject of the sentence is "you".
Whether you intended it or not, that's how it looked.
Overkill for such a trivial issue? Definitely.
But that's the last I'll say on that argument as I'm really just tired of arguing about it.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Yes... But you completely ignored what I said. No I didn't. The 'maybe maybe maybe' sentence was pointing out the fact that this is the internet, and I could be anyone and very well could have a decent understanding of depression. And then you went on a tirade against the word hypothetical.
And it's reasonable to assume that you don't given your very, very black and white vew on it.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre I thought that maybe by pointing that you you would learn not to make assumptions about people on the internet.
Very reasonable compared to the idea that it's reasonable to assume that someone who may or may not be struggling with a disorder is almost always faking to.
So I guess my point is, don't you think that's it's a little hypocritical for you to be telling me not to make assumptions about people?
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape But that's not a logical conclusion to draw from the fact that depression makes you feel helpless and insignificant. It's really hard to talk to people about depression, but it's not reasonable to assume that it's impossible. I never said it was impossible to talk about. I said that you wouldn't because, if you think people dont care about you, then there is absolutely no point in telling them you feel like s**t. NONE. Dismissing it with a nonsensical comparison with a smile, or by saying 's**t's compoicated!' is just silly.
And feeling like nobody cares doesn't mean your thoughts are limited to "Everyone hates me so I should probably rot or kill myself."
Even if nobody did care, if you went to somebody, well not you but a lot of people, and said that you were really depressed and scared, they would probably try to help you.
Even a stranger.
It's not even about love or care.
And even if you're depressed you're still capable of that thought. A lot of different reasoning can lead you to the conclusion that you need to talk to somebody.
And different people react differently to depression. Obviously there are common symptoms or it wouldn't exist in the first place.
But you can't assume that everyone reacts the exact same way.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre Also, 'defining depression'? I didn't do anything of the sort. I pointed out one effect of depression.
Well, that and that most people who claim to have it are faking.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Telling loved ones that you need help when you're depressed is a sign for attention? Who the hell do you suggest, the family dog? Loved ones should be the first to know. The dog? nah, it won't be able to help. I dunno, though. Maybe, just maybe a professional might.
If you're not completely financially stable with money to spare, how are you going to pay him?
If you're still living with your parents, where are you going to tell them you're going for a set ammount of hours on set days every week?
If you're about a teenager or younger, how are you even going to go about finding one?
I don't know your situation, but I'm eighteen. And even if I was completely independant, I would still think that my loved ones deserved to know.
Even when I was really struggling, I knew that they were really worried about me.
I didn't think they loved me. But I knew they were still worried about me.
And a professional would probably advise you to talk to your loved ones.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre Again, look at what i am actually saying. If you think these people don't care about you, what is the point in telling them?
They have some moral obligation to help you.
They're doing it for appearances.
Even that they want you to stop acting weird.
You don't know what goes through someone else's head.
And again, being depressed generally makes people feel useless and lonely, but it doesn't necessarily make you completely blind to people worrying about you.
It's so much more complicated.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape No, you seem aggressive and spiteful of anyone claims to be struggling with certain types of disorders. Those who are and aren't lying. That's what bothers me. There's not reason to assume someone is lying about depression, autism, or ADD just because they say they have it. And this is from someone who believes that most cases of ADD in kids in America are just psychiatrists who are too quick to hand out adderall and parents who think there's something wrong with their kid if they act, well, like children. You should give people that chance. You don't know what they're dealing with until you get to know them. When you go to a perfectly normal school and almost everyone there claims to have a disorder of some kind, there are three reasonable reasons for this: 1: Either the frequency of these dissorders among the general population is downlplayed/just plain wrong, and I doubt that, because if it were, psych's would pounce on that the instant that was found out. 2: The school in question is a statistical anomaly. Though when you have many schools in the area with the same situation, and then find out from people that live in other cities that the students in schools there seem to claim similar incidences of depression (which is by far the most common claim) that idea goes out the window... 3: Those people in excess of the expected sufferers of depression are lying their arses off.
1: It kind of is, as everybody has issues. There's no such thing as "normal", it's just a matter of who can hide the crazy the best.
That's how I see it.
2: Obviously not true. I agree, that is highly unlikely.
3: Probable of a certain ammount of them, but probably a small fraction compared to those actually diagnosed.
May I offer the most probable alternative?
4: We call psychology a science, but it's really pretty subjective. You could go to one therapist and be told that you just need to go home and calm down, be unsatisfied with the answer, go to a new therapist and be told that you're very depressed and have deep repressed memories from your childhood that can only be uncovered by bi-weekly sessions with them for the next couple years.
So you can pretty much go from therapist to therapist until you "confirm what you already know".
On top of that, I think that a lot of therapists in America will tell their patients what they want to hear.
And unfortunately Americans don't like to be help accountable for their actions. And it's really much easier to say "It's not my fault I'm this way, I have ______." then it is to admit "No, I messed up".
Like I said earlier, ADD is probably the most ovious example of this because think about it, when a kid has ADD the parents benifit because they can say that it's not their fault that their child can't behave, the teacher can say it's not his fault that the kid can't learn, and the therapist gets a big fat check to council the kid. Not to mention what drug companies must make off of adderall and ritalin.
And what's better, what's the major symptom of ADD? Not being able to concentrate.
What kid under ten years old can concentrate? Other than a kid on ritalin.
And that's what I believe the reason for so many kids with disorders.
They're all over-diagnosed.
So I agree with you to an extent, that a large portion of people who claim to have a disorder don't. But to their knowledge they do.
Back to the kid with ADD, he'll be told all through school that he simply can't do certain things. And he'll ultimately suffer. And chances are he's completely capable but was never taught to be disciplined.
And I feel this way about depression too. Psychiatrists are very quick to hand out anti-depressants.
But given the very possible alternative, it should always be treated seriously and sensatively.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape But you don't know the difference. Certainly not at first glance. You clearly don't understand depression. Why do you think you can tell the difference between someone who's looking for attention and someone who isn't? I never said I knew the difference at first glance. Nice way to straw man there. Maybe this is a generalisation borne of repeated meetings with people who claim that they have pretended to be depressed? Maybe not. Maybe I know perfectly well about depression, having lived with it my whole life, maybe not.
Saying that you can judge from experience? That's like me saying "Every German person that I've met was a huge jerk to me. Therefore most German people must be jerks."
Have you ever thought that it's just the people you surround yourself with?
And I'm still not convinced that you undertand depression. Let's say you have lived with depression, how do you know the difference between what all people living with depression face, what are simply common symptoms and similarities, and what's just you?
Louis-Auguste Robespierre I actually meant it would be better the get a better understanding of minor instances of Malingering, in direct contrast with Münchausen's. -.-
And in the part that I quoted, you called it "Atention Demanding Disorder", jokingly of course, because you didn't know there was such a name attatched to people with a serious problem with lying for attention.
Google is not always your friend...
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape No, it's paranoid to assume the worst in someone. In this case, potentially cruel as well. This isn't an assumption, however. This is a reaction borne of repeated experience. I dare say that your assumption that I must be hostile at 'first glance' is irrational.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre After reading the OP I knew the thread was going to be dominated by people going out of their way to show how accepting they are and just how understanding they are to people with every problem.
I don't get it. I really, really don't. People lie, people pretend to be depressed, people read about a new disease or disorder and then act it out just to get attention, or just to get away with s**t.
That there are people with problems doesn't matter at all, because there are so many who are faking it. But then let us look at the people who do have issues in one area or another. For many it seems to just be an excuse to be a d**k.
Someone goes around flinging sexist, homophobic and racist comments after people have repeatedly said "don't say any of that s**t around us" and people want to excuse it as autism? No, that is being a d**k. You may not understand why it is offensive, but people have repeatedly said it is and to continue to act that way is to consciously antagonise others.
With publicised depression I often encounter people who use it to be the center of attention--and don't lie, you do too. If you were depressed you sure as hell wouldn't be telling anyone about it because that would imply that you thought people actually care, that you matter, that you aren't completely worthless and deserve to be erased from existence. By telling people about it you betray that you aren't depressed and are only doing it for attention, and that you are a manipulative arsehole.
The underlined is either needlessly hostile, judgemental or both.
To read that you posted that without any provocation and to not think that you're not hostile or just have a major problem with people claiming to have autism or depression would mean that I'm just not really paying attention.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Read the "..." And I'm saying that it's reasonable by your logic maybe. But it's a really far stretch for anyone that has a healthy ammount of trust in people. ahuh
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape Would you? How do you know they're not just trying to get your sympathy? Well if they were to say they were 'really scared that they might hurt themselves and came to me for help' well that is a pretty big indication that they are bullshitting. After all, if didn't care about them, why would they come to me? If they recognise that I do care about them, and am able to help, then they certainly don't feel worthlless and alone.
Depression doesn't deprive you of thought. It skews them. But not in such a black and white way. People with depression are still capable of trust and opening up to somebody.
Just as they are still capable of happiness, enthusiasm, surely not the same is if they were stable, but putting it in such black and white terms is ridiculous.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape That's why what you're saying pisses me off so much. Because at that point you're already very fragile and desperate for someone to make a difference. And if I had gone to somebody like you it would have really upset me. It might piss you off, but please try and read what I am actually saying, and not some "he doesn't like meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee crying " rant.
I'm saying that if someone really did come to someone dangerously close to attempting suicide in a highly emotional and desperate state and opened up to someone who took your advice who told them to "quit faking", then that really could push them over the edge.
The point of that story is that I seriously don't know what I would have done if somebody told that to me when I was so low.
I'm not being melodramatic, that's cruel.
Louis-Auguste Robespierre cellophane tape It's way more complicated than you make it out to be. I am pointing out one aspect, and have in no way tried to characterise depression as an illness. All I have said is this: 1: Person claims to be depressed. To feel worthless, uncared for, and that they should be simply erased form existence. 2: Person then goes on to inform others, non-professionals, about this. That is, they tell people that by their claimed understanding, DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEM.
3: Person, by that act, admits that they recognise that they are not worthless and that there are people that care.
Please address that, and not strawmen created to fit your outrage.
Depressed people feel worthless and as if no one cares about them. They all obsess over this fact. Therefore, if a depressed person admits to somebody that they are depressed, they are not depressed. The only way somebody is really depressed is if they perminantly isolate themselves from others until they kill themselves.
The only way a depressed person may save himself from this fate is to see a professional. Which of course they must do without informing anyone who is not a therapist.
And outrage? No, there is no outrage. By now I am just very annoyed.
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