Libertarianism

[dl1371]

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about. than how much greater society would be under communism.

Oh yes, actually it was the early socialists who were interested in how much more society would produce under their plans.  

[Revolutionary Justice]

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?  

[dl1371]

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

Well they are the same thing, but my point was that Marx and Engels didn't focus on how much greater society would be under communism, they focused on the need to liberate the proletariat. I guess you're right, I'll edit my post.  

[Lethkhar]

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.  

[Revolutionary Justice]

dl1371

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

Well they are the same thing, but my point was that Marx and Engels didn't focus on how much greater society would be under communism, they focused on the need to liberate the proletariat. I guess you're right, I'll edit my post.

I'll agree in the Communist Manifesto they didn't really didn't focus on how much greater society would be under communism, because I don't believe the Manifesto was trying to make moral arguments for communism but rather to explain that it is inevitable as the proletariat would naturally overthrow it's oppressors the bourgeoisie, just like the bourgeoisie overthrew the oppressive feudal society. That's what they were trying to explain in the Manifesto I believe.  

[Revolutionary Justice]

Lethkhar

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.

I don't know but employer seems to presuppose private property, which you know communists hope to abolish.  

[Le Pere Duchesne]

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about. than how much greater society would be under communism.

Oh yes, actually it was the early socialists who were interested in how much more society would produce under their plans.

No, it is the goal of communism. The liberation of the proletariat is the only means to get there. The proletariat is the only class with the organistion (through being collectively organised at the point of production in the form of factories) and the objective desire to trancend class society. In short, it is the only class which unifies both the desire and the ability to do such.

The Manifesto* isn't the only work of Marxism, and in fact is merely a propaganda document by an organisation on the eve of a revolution. A more complete exposition is found in the draft version written by Engels, which has come down to us titled Principles of Communism.* Marxist theory, later (and most correctly) termed Dialectical Materialism by Plekhanov, the father of Russian Marxism is mainly explained or demonstraited in Marx's Capital, Critique of the Gotha Programme,* Engels' Anti-Duhring,* and their joint effort The German Ideology, which they wrote as a work of self-clarification, and not for publication (though it is, of course, available both in print and online).

An especially nice and accessable explanation of this view is in Principles of Communism, under question 20, "What will be the consequences of the ultimate disappearance of private property?"

*: These works are available in the link in my signature. Those without an asterisk are available at marxists.org but are not provided in the link in my sig.  

[Le Pere Duchesne]

Lethkhar

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.

This isn't correct. While the working class does take hold of the means of production, there is no such thing as 'employers' except in the most pedantic use of the term, as production becomes a social responsibility for all citizens, much as paying tax is now.  

[Lethkhar]

Revolutionary Justice

Lethkhar

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.

I don't know but employer seems to presuppose private property, which you know communists hope to abolish.

I don't think an employer presupposes private property. It's just one who employs, or gives work. If the proletariat give themselves work, they become the employers.  

[Lethkhar]

Gracchia Saint-Justine

Lethkhar

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.

This isn't correct. While the working class does take hold of the means of production, there is no such thing as 'employers' except in the most pedantic use of the term, as production becomes a social responsibility for all citizens, much as paying tax is now.

So...What isn't correct?  

[Le Pere Duchesne]

Lethkhar

Gracchia Saint-Justine

Lethkhar

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.

This isn't correct. While the working class does take hold of the means of production, there is no such thing as 'employers' except in the most pedantic use of the term, as production becomes a social responsibility for all citizens, much as paying tax is now.

So...What isn't correct?

Eh, nothing really. I took dl's phrase 'abolition of employers' uncritically, and s**t got mixed up from there.
The Manifesto says nothing about 'abolition of employers' because it isn't an aim. I believe the phrase dl was looking for is 'abolition of classes,' which is an aim.  

[Lethkhar]

Gracchia Saint-Justine

Lethkhar

Gracchia Saint-Justine

Lethkhar

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.

This isn't correct. While the working class does take hold of the means of production, there is no such thing as 'employers' except in the most pedantic use of the term, as production becomes a social responsibility for all citizens, much as paying tax is now.

So...What isn't correct?

Eh, nothing really. I took dl's phrase 'abolition of employers' uncritically, and s**t got mixed up from there.
The Manifesto says nothing about 'abolition of employers' because it isn't an aim. I believe the phrase dl was looking for is 'abolition of classes,' which is an aim.

Yup.  

[dl1371]

Gracchia Saint-Justine

Lethkhar

Gracchia Saint-Justine

Lethkhar

Revolutionary Justice

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about.

What is the difference between the liberation of the proletariat and the abolition of employers?

The proletariat become the employers. They control the means of production. So I'm not sure if "abolition" is the right word.

This isn't correct. While the working class does take hold of the means of production, there is no such thing as 'employers' except in the most pedantic use of the term, as production becomes a social responsibility for all citizens, much as paying tax is now.

So...What isn't correct?

Eh, nothing really. I took dl's phrase 'abolition of employers' uncritically, and s**t got mixed up from there.
The Manifesto says nothing about 'abolition of employers' because it isn't an aim. I believe the phrase dl was looking for is 'abolition of classes,' which is an aim.

Actually I meant abolition of the bourgeois, I just didn't remember how to spell it and didn't feel like looking it up while I was making the post. What I meant was that if there are no corporations, you can take out the jobs like CEOs and execs and make them proletariat, which increases the production of society. Jobs assigned by ability does also.  

[dl1371]

Gracchia Saint-Justine

dl1371

Well sure thats one goal of communism, but I doubt thats the major goal. After skimming through The Communist Manifesto again(well the first few times I read the whole thing)I've noticed that Marx and Engels focus much more of the liberation of the proletariat than the abolition of the employers, which would lead to the end result that you're talking about. than how much greater society would be under communism.

Oh yes, actually it was the early socialists who were interested in how much more society would produce under their plans.

No, it is the goal of communism. The liberation of the proletariat is the only means to get there. The proletariat is the only class with the organistion (through being collectively organised at the point of production in the form of factories) and the objective desire to trancend class society. In short, it is the only class which unifies both the desire and the ability to do such.

The Manifesto* isn't the only work of Marxism, and in fact is merely a propaganda document by an organisation on the eve of a revolution. A more complete exposition is found in the draft version written by Engels, which has come down to us titled Principles of Communism.* Marxist theory, later (and most correctly) termed Dialectical Materialism by Plekhanov, the father of Russian Marxism is mainly explained or demonstraited in Marx's Capital, Critique of the Gotha Programme,* Engels' Anti-Duhring,* and their joint effort The German Ideology, which they wrote as a work of self-clarification, and not for publication (though it is, of course, available both in print and online).

An especially nice and accessable explanation of this view is in Principles of Communism, under question 20, "What will be the consequences of the ultimate disappearance of private property?"

*: These works are available in the link in my signature. Those without an asterisk are available at marxists.org but are not provided in the link in my sig.

a) Wouldn't anarcho-communism be the best because it also takes people who would ordinarily be in the government and put them in manufacturing.
b) Why in hell are we discussing what Marx thought? Last time I checked I was an individual, and I'm pretty sure you are too(although you could be a bot or a group of people)