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 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:15 pm
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Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:24 pm
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Obscurus Adalyna Obscurus Adalyna I'm piecing together my own eclectic pagan mix, Wicca outer-court material seems influential whether I like it or not, possibly because of the fertility focus, but I try to take pearls of knowledge from as many sources as possible without neglecting appropriation or intellectual honesty My understanding is that most of the Wiccan Outer Court material has been lifted from other places so if the "Wiccan" bugs you then you can put it in that context. Of the Outer Court material I've seen, a lot has been lifted from Aleister Crowley and Hermeticism. Going by Ed Fitch's book A Grimoire of Shadows, Outer Court Wicca doesn't seem to be anything special. Fitch himself gives Franz Bardon credit for most of the actual exercises in his book. I'm biased against Wicca because of Gardner's treatment of Crowley and his work, but I just thought I'd let you know in case the "Wicca" part of those practices was bothering you since you said "whether I like it or not." sweatdrop I can actually understand that a little. Its more the fact that I feel a lot of anti eclectic hate from the actual wiccan community due to the misuse of the term from eclectics. I'm not trying to be Wicca at all but the fertility and ditheistic elements are central to my beliefs. I do agree though even though I'm more into folk magic, I want to learn more about the elements from ceremonial magic in their original context, so that if they influence my own practices I know where their coming from. Would you say Gardener's handling of Crowley's work was plagiarist? Some of Crowley's ideas are very influential to me as well, there are some points I don't agree on but the concept of Will, as I've read Crowley describing it, is really influential to me. My only real disagreement is that in their natural state, wills conflict, and the only time Will should have to bend is when two or more individual wills come into conflict as this enables them to make room for each other. I prattle... Holier-than-thou Wiccans amuse me to the point that I go out of my way to bug the piss out of them. They always fall back on the "oathbound" material when it's demonstrated that most, if not all, of the Outer Court is stolen or misappropriated (ironic, huh?). I'd say that since parts of the Wiccan Third Degree and Crowley's Gnostic Mass are identical that it is plagiarism. Let me get you some links in the event you want to read more. The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 1The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 2The Thelemic Origins of WiccaMy thinking on True Will is that True Wills shouldn't contradict at all if they're coming from the same Ultimate Source. I see everything coming from a Source though. I'm not sure on what Crowley thought about that. I'm not a ceremonial magickian, but I do like Crowley's view of "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
The rituals may be the same, but what of the beliefs behind them? The deities involved in example. Thelema and Crowley's ideas in general use Egyptian deities so far as I've realized, but Wicca seems to use the "Lady and the Lord of the British Isles" who are more about fertility, nature and the change of seasons/life than True Will and all of that.
I'm not an expert though, and being syncretic as I am, I tend to pay attention more to what really matters to me rather than specifics.
I've just never seen Wicca and Thelema too similar, 'sides from the rituals. Edit: And I don't remember the initiation rituals from Gardner's BOS to be even remotely similar to the initiation of the Gnostic Mass.
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Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:35 pm
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Mitsh Liberi Glacialis Though "Do as thou wilt" is a ******** dangerous law. Sorry to give a video game example, but see what happens in the Mainline SMT games if the Protagonist sides with Chaos. And think about the implications behind it, not just on the surface. --- I, personally, have no real hard beliefs as of right now. "Do what thou Wilt" does not mean "Do whatever the hell you feel like, brah"; rather, it's something closer to "Do what is in accordance with your True Will", similar to the sentiment of doing what you're destined to do, or achieving your "purpose" on earth. Suffice it to say I don't think many of us are faced with the issue of deciding to align ourselves with the Cult of Gaea versus the Order of Messiah on a regular basis. Being mindful of your actions and how they may affect the bigger picture is good, but worrying too much about what *might* result -- especially when you have no evidence to suggest such things may occur -- is needlessly limiting yourself.
Iawtc. Also, Thelema focuses a lot on Will control so that I think it's even less of a reason why it would be "Do whatever you want, brah."
haha
With power comes responsibility? |
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Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:26 pm
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Naynram Ukir Obscurus Adalyna Obscurus Adalyna I'm piecing together my own eclectic pagan mix, Wicca outer-court material seems influential whether I like it or not, possibly because of the fertility focus, but I try to take pearls of knowledge from as many sources as possible without neglecting appropriation or intellectual honesty My understanding is that most of the Wiccan Outer Court material has been lifted from other places so if the "Wiccan" bugs you then you can put it in that context. Of the Outer Court material I've seen, a lot has been lifted from Aleister Crowley and Hermeticism. Going by Ed Fitch's book A Grimoire of Shadows, Outer Court Wicca doesn't seem to be anything special. Fitch himself gives Franz Bardon credit for most of the actual exercises in his book. I'm biased against Wicca because of Gardner's treatment of Crowley and his work, but I just thought I'd let you know in case the "Wicca" part of those practices was bothering you since you said "whether I like it or not." sweatdrop I can actually understand that a little. Its more the fact that I feel a lot of anti eclectic hate from the actual wiccan community due to the misuse of the term from eclectics. I'm not trying to be Wicca at all but the fertility and ditheistic elements are central to my beliefs. I do agree though even though I'm more into folk magic, I want to learn more about the elements from ceremonial magic in their original context, so that if they influence my own practices I know where their coming from. Would you say Gardener's handling of Crowley's work was plagiarist? Some of Crowley's ideas are very influential to me as well, there are some points I don't agree on but the concept of Will, as I've read Crowley describing it, is really influential to me. My only real disagreement is that in their natural state, wills conflict, and the only time Will should have to bend is when two or more individual wills come into conflict as this enables them to make room for each other. I prattle... Holier-than-thou Wiccans amuse me to the point that I go out of my way to bug the piss out of them. They always fall back on the "oathbound" material when it's demonstrated that most, if not all, of the Outer Court is stolen or misappropriated (ironic, huh?). I'd say that since parts of the Wiccan Third Degree and Crowley's Gnostic Mass are identical that it is plagiarism. Let me get you some links in the event you want to read more. The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 1The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 2The Thelemic Origins of WiccaMy thinking on True Will is that True Wills shouldn't contradict at all if they're coming from the same Ultimate Source. I see everything coming from a Source though. I'm not sure on what Crowley thought about that. I'm not a ceremonial magickian, but I do like Crowley's view of "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
The rituals may be the same, but what of the beliefs behind them? The deities involved in example. Thelema and Crowley's ideas in general use Egyptian deities so far as I've realized, but Wicca seems to use the "Lady and the Lord of the British Isles" who are more about fertility, nature and the change of seasons/life than True Will and all of that.
I'm not an expert though, and being syncretic as I am, I tend to pay attention more to what really matters to me rather than specifics.
I've just never seen Wicca and Thelema too similar, 'sides from the rituals. Edit: And I don't remember the initiation rituals from Gardner's BOS to be even remotely similar to the initiation of the Gnostic Mass.
Why does Gardner plagiarize word for word some of Crowley's material if he's trying to focus on a completely different set of deities? Gardner was also given an OTO charter by Crowley. When Crowley dies, Gardner commences butchering the Thelemic teachings. My understanding is that Crowley would have flipped s**t on Gardner had he been alive to witness any alteration to The Book of the Law.
All of this combined with the origins of Wicca as a rationalization for adultery just makes me incredibly biased towards the whole tradition, never mind that it's impossible to prove one way or another just how much has been ripped off because apparently all of the valid stuff is oathbound. That's pretty convenient. |
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Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:38 pm
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Nocturoe Nara Zurine How do you label your spiritual beliefs? I'm not sure what to call myself. D: I: Meditate, practice yoga, lucid dreaming, believe in nature spirits, respect animals when I go hunting, I use herbs for healing, I don't do spells, I don't believe in the Christian version of "God", I believe there is a higher force, reincarnation. You generally type in a search 'what religion believes in.. (let's say; reincarnation.) Once you have typed in all of your searches for all of your important beliefs then you will see maybe 1-3 different beliefs that match, it's just simple logical deductive reasoning. But you seem to be very eastern in your beliefs, so the Asian religions would be a great start, it could be a number of them. But I would look up for you if you like. (Or you can take my suggestion, since you know yourself best.) OF COURSE; You can always create your own and be smarticles and put it together with Greek and Latin, or Finnish.. XP
Brilliant. C: I've never had the urge to label my religious concepts. I just accept them as the way things are. But Eastern you say? I have never really considered myself interested in Asian culture but I guess it maybe a smart idea to start looking into it now.
Thanks! |
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Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:06 pm
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Naynram Ukir Mitsh Liberi Glacialis Though "Do as thou wilt" is a ******** dangerous law. Sorry to give a video game example, but see what happens in the Mainline SMT games if the Protagonist sides with Chaos. And think about the implications behind it, not just on the surface. --- I, personally, have no real hard beliefs as of right now. "Do what thou Wilt" does not mean "Do whatever the hell you feel like, brah"; rather, it's something closer to "Do what is in accordance with your True Will", similar to the sentiment of doing what you're destined to do, or achieving your "purpose" on earth. Suffice it to say I don't think many of us are faced with the issue of deciding to align ourselves with the Cult of Gaea versus the Order of Messiah on a regular basis. Being mindful of your actions and how they may affect the bigger picture is good, but worrying too much about what *might* result -- especially when you have no evidence to suggest such things may occur -- is needlessly limiting yourself. Iawtc. Also, Thelema focuses a lot on Will control so that I think it's even less of a reason why it would be "Do whatever you want, brah."
haha
With power comes responsibility?
Lawl, non-video game area, and someone gets why I chose the Gaians. Freedom to do as one wishes is awesome and all, but when everyone has that freedom, not good. |
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:40 am
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Liberi Glacialis Naynram Ukir Mitsh Liberi Glacialis Though "Do as thou wilt" is a ******** dangerous law. Sorry to give a video game example, but see what happens in the Mainline SMT games if the Protagonist sides with Chaos. And think about the implications behind it, not just on the surface. --- I, personally, have no real hard beliefs as of right now. "Do what thou Wilt" does not mean "Do whatever the hell you feel like, brah"; rather, it's something closer to "Do what is in accordance with your True Will", similar to the sentiment of doing what you're destined to do, or achieving your "purpose" on earth. Suffice it to say I don't think many of us are faced with the issue of deciding to align ourselves with the Cult of Gaea versus the Order of Messiah on a regular basis. Being mindful of your actions and how they may affect the bigger picture is good, but worrying too much about what *might* result -- especially when you have no evidence to suggest such things may occur -- is needlessly limiting yourself. Iawtc. Also, Thelema focuses a lot on Will control so that I think it's even less of a reason why it would be "Do whatever you want, brah."
haha
With power comes responsibility? However, if you say that is the law to someone who is ignorant to works of Thelema(?) and the like, they'd probably think of it the same way I did. Ergo, still somewhat dangerous IMO. Lawl, non-video game area, and someone gets why I chose the Gaians. Freedom to do as one wishes is awesome and all, but when everyone has that freedom, not good.
Leaving an idiot with scissors could be dangerous.
I'm not hiding my scissors just because someone might be stupid enough to play with them and lob off their finger.
See what I'm getting at?
People learn in that way.
And why would you say everyone having freedom is not good?
The law of Darwin will work better that way, more naturally. hahaha
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:00 am
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Obscurus Naynram Ukir Obscurus Adalyna Obscurus My understanding is that most of the Wiccan Outer Court material has been lifted from other places so if the "Wiccan" bugs you then you can put it in that context. Of the Outer Court material I've seen, a lot has been lifted from Aleister Crowley and Hermeticism. Going by Ed Fitch's book A Grimoire of Shadows, Outer Court Wicca doesn't seem to be anything special. Fitch himself gives Franz Bardon credit for most of the actual exercises in his book. I'm biased against Wicca because of Gardner's treatment of Crowley and his work, but I just thought I'd let you know in case the "Wicca" part of those practices was bothering you since you said "whether I like it or not." sweatdrop I can actually understand that a little. Its more the fact that I feel a lot of anti eclectic hate from the actual wiccan community due to the misuse of the term from eclectics. I'm not trying to be Wicca at all but the fertility and ditheistic elements are central to my beliefs. I do agree though even though I'm more into folk magic, I want to learn more about the elements from ceremonial magic in their original context, so that if they influence my own practices I know where their coming from. Would you say Gardener's handling of Crowley's work was plagiarist? Some of Crowley's ideas are very influential to me as well, there are some points I don't agree on but the concept of Will, as I've read Crowley describing it, is really influential to me. My only real disagreement is that in their natural state, wills conflict, and the only time Will should have to bend is when two or more individual wills come into conflict as this enables them to make room for each other. I prattle... Holier-than-thou Wiccans amuse me to the point that I go out of my way to bug the piss out of them. They always fall back on the "oathbound" material when it's demonstrated that most, if not all, of the Outer Court is stolen or misappropriated (ironic, huh?). I'd say that since parts of the Wiccan Third Degree and Crowley's Gnostic Mass are identical that it is plagiarism. Let me get you some links in the event you want to read more. The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 1The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 2The Thelemic Origins of WiccaMy thinking on True Will is that True Wills shouldn't contradict at all if they're coming from the same Ultimate Source. I see everything coming from a Source though. I'm not sure on what Crowley thought about that. I'm not a ceremonial magickian, but I do like Crowley's view of "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
The rituals may be the same, but what of the beliefs behind them? The deities involved in example. Thelema and Crowley's ideas in general use Egyptian deities so far as I've realized, but Wicca seems to use the "Lady and the Lord of the British Isles" who are more about fertility, nature and the change of seasons/life than True Will and all of that.
I'm not an expert though, and being syncretic as I am, I tend to pay attention more to what really matters to me rather than specifics.
I've just never seen Wicca and Thelema too similar, 'sides from the rituals. Edit: And I don't remember the initiation rituals from Gardner's BOS to be even remotely similar to the initiation of the Gnostic Mass.
Why does Gardner plagiarize word for word some of Crowley's material if he's trying to focus on a completely different set of deities?
Because he saw them as well working rituals and believed in other deities?
Quote: Gardner was also given an OTO charter by Crowley. When Crowley dies, Gardner commences butchering the Thelemic teachings. My understanding is that Crowley would have flipped s**t on Gardner had he been alive to witness any alteration to The Book of the Law.
I'm not too sure about the whole back story of it all, but Crowley wasn't there to say anything about it... I don't keep up with dead people drama much. They're still varied beliefs that many people prescribe to, and the more people who believe in one thing the more it becomes a 'new' religion/cult.
Gardner didn't alter the Book of the Law, he made another book called Garderarian (sp?) Book of Shadows, isn't that correct? That stemmed off from practices of the OTO. And if I recall correctly, Crowley didn't have a problem with people doing their own thing spiritually, if it applied to their True Will. In that way you use your own noodle without blindly following a book someone else made.
Quote: All of this combined with the origins of Wicca as a rationalization for adultery just makes me incredibly biased towards the whole tradition, never mind that it's impossible to prove one way or another just how much has been ripped off because apparently all of the valid stuff is oathbound. That's pretty convenient.
Do you really thing modern day Wiccans hide behind the 'oath-bound' excuse because of the 'adultery' from Thelema? Many people join because it fits their fertility cult loving spirits anymore, not cause it had anything do do with Thelema, or what Gardner said, or what Crowley said.
I don't remember the flogging as a part of initiation into the OTO...
Are you saying other paths can not be valid, if one took some practices from another order?
( Sorry for the post splitting.... <.< )
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:11 am
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Liberi Glacialis However, if you say that is the law to someone who is ignorant to works of Thelema(?) and the like, they'd probably think of it the same way I did. Ergo, still somewhat dangerous IMO.
Such is the danger of misinterpretation - you can read things one way when they mean something else in a different context. It's a big problem in the occult since a lot of the time we have to employ analogues and metaphor which could easily be conflated with the truth.
So, is the onus on us to make sure you're informed of what the meaning of the phrase is? Is it on Crowley, to make sure he was understood in the correct context? Is it on you, to ensure you've got a thorough knowledge of the concepts associated with the phrase before deciding to tell people what you find wrong with it? It's probably a mix of all three, depending on where your values sit.
Naynram Ukir I don't remember the flogging as a part of initiation into the OTO...
I think it's for particular Wiccan paths, not the O.T.O. Flogging is part of the rituals in Lady Sheba's Book of Shadows; for example, the opening lines for the ritual "To Open the Circle" are "Let all be clean before the Gods. Being properly prepared, purify each other with Scourge or Cord: 3, 7, 9, 21 = 40. Give kiss."
Naynram Ukir Are you saying other paths can not be valid, if one took some practices from another order?
I think Obscurus' quarrel lies with the fact that Gardner took so much of Crowley's material while trying to pass Wicca off as being an ancient religion and trying to make it appear as legitimate as possible; it would've been largely okay if he paid credit where credit was due and said "I got this from this dude Crowley but adapted it for my own deities", but, as demonstrated by the links Obscurus provided, he barely did even that. I have my doubts about the authenticity of the articles, though -- there's an awful lot of speculation going on -- but I wouldn't be altogether surprised if they were true. It's cool if you want to adapt material from other folks' sources - magicians do it all the time, even unconsciously, drawing off the work of Eliphas Levi, Rider Waite, Crowley, and so on. But to take something wholesale from Crowley's work and imply that it's yours, or that it draws from the same source Crowley took it from, or anything similar is kind of being a douche, if not outright plagiarism.
Naynram Ukir Do you really thing modern day Wiccans hide behind the 'oath-bound' excuse because of the 'adultery' from Thelema? Many people join because it fits their fertility cult loving spirits anymore, not cause it had anything do do with Thelema, or what Gardner said, or what Crowley said.
I doubt anyone would hide their secrets to prevent it getting out that Gardner nabbed stuff from Crowley. However, it fits that the oathbound nature of Wicca may have had a genesis in Gardner wanting to keep his liaisons secret. Again, speculation, but a more reasonable way to look at it than assuming there's a Great Wiccan Conspiracy. |
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:18 am
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I'm not going to argue against their being plagiarized elements in Wicca, as I'm not really Thelema or Wicca, and I don't really care to dig through their oathbound materials. The only thing that really nudges me closer to Wicca is the fertility element in my religion. I guess you could say I have just as much leaning towards thelema due to a belief in something similar to Crowley's concept of will. Either way I'm not interested in initiatory traditions right now, as I'm kind of allergic to them.
Besides they say two wrongs don't make a right, and I don't care for pulling apart their tradition with more plagiarism, and it would be dishonest of me anyways.
I've heard gardner was heterosexist, true or not it's certainly heterocentric, and my interpretation of fertility is more abstract, so I don't really care if i can call myself Wicca or Thelema or not, because I'm not trying to be either one. I draw influences from both Gardener and Crowley, regardless of my personal opinions of them, especially the former, because they were good at what they did. Its a moot point because I'm trying to create something new for myself and anyone interested in it.
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Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:42 pm
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Naynram Ukir Obscurus Naynram Ukir Obscurus Adalyna I can actually understand that a little. Its more the fact that I feel a lot of anti eclectic hate from the actual wiccan community due to the misuse of the term from eclectics. I'm not trying to be Wicca at all but the fertility and ditheistic elements are central to my beliefs. I do agree though even though I'm more into folk magic, I want to learn more about the elements from ceremonial magic in their original context, so that if they influence my own practices I know where their coming from. Would you say Gardener's handling of Crowley's work was plagiarist? Some of Crowley's ideas are very influential to me as well, there are some points I don't agree on but the concept of Will, as I've read Crowley describing it, is really influential to me. My only real disagreement is that in their natural state, wills conflict, and the only time Will should have to bend is when two or more individual wills come into conflict as this enables them to make room for each other. I prattle... Holier-than-thou Wiccans amuse me to the point that I go out of my way to bug the piss out of them. They always fall back on the "oathbound" material when it's demonstrated that most, if not all, of the Outer Court is stolen or misappropriated (ironic, huh?). I'd say that since parts of the Wiccan Third Degree and Crowley's Gnostic Mass are identical that it is plagiarism. Let me get you some links in the event you want to read more. The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 1The Great Wicca Hoax - Part 2The Thelemic Origins of WiccaMy thinking on True Will is that True Wills shouldn't contradict at all if they're coming from the same Ultimate Source. I see everything coming from a Source though. I'm not sure on what Crowley thought about that. I'm not a ceremonial magickian, but I do like Crowley's view of "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
The rituals may be the same, but what of the beliefs behind them? The deities involved in example. Thelema and Crowley's ideas in general use Egyptian deities so far as I've realized, but Wicca seems to use the "Lady and the Lord of the British Isles" who are more about fertility, nature and the change of seasons/life than True Will and all of that.
I'm not an expert though, and being syncretic as I am, I tend to pay attention more to what really matters to me rather than specifics.
I've just never seen Wicca and Thelema too similar, 'sides from the rituals. Edit: And I don't remember the initiation rituals from Gardner's BOS to be even remotely similar to the initiation of the Gnostic Mass.
Why does Gardner plagiarize word for word some of Crowley's material if he's trying to focus on a completely different set of deities?
Because he saw them as well working rituals and believed in other deities?
Quote: Gardner was also given an OTO charter by Crowley. When Crowley dies, Gardner commences butchering the Thelemic teachings. My understanding is that Crowley would have flipped s**t on Gardner had he been alive to witness any alteration to The Book of the Law. I'm not too sure about the whole back story of it all, but Crowley wasn't there to say anything about it... I don't keep up with dead people drama much. They're still varied beliefs that many people prescribe to, and the more people who believe in one thing the more it becomes a 'new' religion/cult.
Gardner didn't alter the Book of the Law, he made another book called Garderarian (sp?) Book of Shadows, isn't that correct? That stemmed off from practices of the OTO. And if I recall correctly, Crowley didn't have a problem with people doing their own thing spiritually, if it applied to their True Will. In that way you use your own noodle without blindly following a book someone else made. Quote: All of this combined with the origins of Wicca as a rationalization for adultery just makes me incredibly biased towards the whole tradition, never mind that it's impossible to prove one way or another just how much has been ripped off because apparently all of the valid stuff is oathbound. That's pretty convenient.
Do you really thing modern day Wiccans hide behind the 'oath-bound' excuse because of the 'adultery' from Thelema? Many people join because it fits their fertility cult loving spirits anymore, not cause it had anything do do with Thelema, or what Gardner said, or what Crowley said.
I don't remember the flogging as a part of initiation into the OTO...
Are you saying other paths can not be valid, if one took some practices from another order?
( Sorry for the post splitting.... <.< )
Gardner couldn't have at least changed the names before incorporating the rituals?
My understanding is that taking anything from the Book of the Law, or editing it in any context, is a no-no as it's meant to be taken together as a complete work, being channeled from Aiwass and being sacred. Regardless, being a member of Crowley's OTO and plagiarizing him (to form a witchcult, no less) probably wouldn't have made him very happy.
I'm saying that Gardner invented Wicca partially as a way to make his own adultery (sex with someone other than his spouse) sacred. I think that modern Wiccans hide behind the oath when they're backed into a corner about the origins of their faith. I don't have any problem with people making their own way, or with the beliefs of Wicca at all really. My issue comes when Wiccans get holier than thou and need to be put in their place with a dose of perspective.
As an aside, does anyone know where I can find any oathbound Wiccan material? I've looked online, but I find it unlikely that anyone can keep a secret that well. |
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:34 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:51 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:06 pm
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