So I quit a guild I was in.

[Iakun]

My point was, the "good points" are utterly worthless when you have something as horrendous as the holocaust attached to you. Fishing for the good points in him just makes me say "who cares". It was his choice to lead things down that path. It's his actions that made something that horrible identify him. So someone like him might have good points, but in my view it's just not worth the time trying to look for them because it's almost like trying to lessen the impact of his horror.  

[xX Catgirl - Pierce Xx]

I'm conflicted.

I see, and agree with both sides V_V  

[purpleravenhawk]

Well, if we're assigning point values to deeds and behaviors, then certainly I would agree. But that would beg the question, if Hitler had saved hundreds of thousands of lives by some other action, would THAT have made up for the Holocaust? I think it only balances out if you believe in karma and stuff like that.

I don't think that looking at someone's good points lessens their bad actions any more than looking for someone's bad points lessens their good ones. And I don't think that there's any point at which someone is permanently irredeemable. If Hitler had lived, repented, and worked to make up for the horrors he caused, we would have thought of him differently.

Don't assume I'm trying to defend the man. I just don't believe in the concept of absolute evil (or absolute good, by the same token). Even people who make certain choices can be misinformed, coerced, or just plain stupid. I would never say Hitler was any of those things, but once it becomes okay to label one person as the spawn of pure evil, labels start flying all over the place.

But maybe it's easy for me to say these things. I have a perspective that seems to put me at odds with most of the world. Remind me to tell you about it sometime. Not that I think you'll really get it, but it couldn't hurt.  

[xX Catgirl - Pierce Xx]

Someone doesn't have to be "pure evil" to do irreversible damage to someone or something.

I don't care how much good they have done before or after, some people I will NEVER forgive. (note hatred for censorship and banning of any hentai)  

[purpleravenhawk]

But hate only harms yourself. And censorship is nowhere near the level of bad caused by something like the Holocaust. Holocaust-type atrocities take place every day someplace in the world. And people who advocate censorship are not necessarily bad people. They may have entirely altruistic intentions.  

[xX Catgirl - Pierce Xx]

I'm not saying it's as bad as the holocaust. (not much is)

But just because they mean well, doesn't make the trouncing of everyone's freedom of choice any less bad.

Everyones intitled to their own oppinion, but when you act on it and it steps on other peoples freedoms, THAT's when it's wrong.

I would refuse to be nice to those people.
No one that steps on MY freedoms deserves MY kindness.
I don't care who they are.  

[Iakun]

I think there's a fear of labeling things absolutely good or absolutely evil. Life obviously is one big grey area with infinite reasons and motivations of why people do what they do. But I do believe that pure evil and pure good are a part of that "spectrum" if you will. I just can't see the world as being nothing but a grey area.

Personally, I dont' think Hitler ever could have redeemed himself. People tend to say the bad always outweighs the good and I believe that's how the world would still see him: bad.

As for karma, lots of things can cause a karmic debt and what he did must've caused a massive one. Of course this is just my belief. I can't imagine what one would have to do in a future life to balance that out.

The physical world might be one big grey melting pot, but if near death experiences and intuitives are anything to go by, the afterlife might surprise us with purity of either end.

edit: Blah. Regardless of my own view I can definitely see the points both you and dude make. I guess that's a testament to the greyness of our reality isn't it?

But I think it's important to say that hate really is no good. It's self-destructive and puts out bad vibes. Makes you feel crappy too. We might feel like we can't help it but I think we MUST work beyond the hate, dissipate it.  

[purpleravenhawk]

Well, as I said, I don't believe in absolute good or evil. Or karma, for that matter. I have a vague sort of belief in some kind of balance, but I don't think it involves any cosmic intelligence or force that takes revenge on the bad little kiddies. So it's not that I'm afraid to label things like that; I just really don't think that's how they should be defined. I think there's always a perspective, no matter how obscure or unwanted, that puts things in a different light.

Obviously, I don't put any stock in near-death stuff, either. I think intuition is just our brains working on a subconscious level that we're not fully aware of. That doesn't make it supernatural, just one more thing we haven't figured out yet.

Dude, everybody does wrong things. Everybody. That doesn't make them worthless, irredeemable, or deserving of hatred. I don't see you hating the people who advocated the seat belt law, but isn't that stepping on our freedom to ride without restraints? Or the law against marijuana? Or the law against walking in your backyard nude? Anger and hatred won't change these things. Only calm hard work.  

[xX Catgirl - Pierce Xx]

Iakun: Yep, just one giant grey area.
Hate only makes the hater feel crappy when they doubt themselves.
Pure hate has no doubts and when it leaves, the person feels no regret.
(scary? - just the view of someone that can change emotions at the drop of a hat - for I have felt "unsure hatred" AND "pure hate" )

Purple: "calm hard work" can fix none of those things you just listed.
Because there will always be 100 people against you for everything you try to do.
Plus... true damage can never be undone... yet good can always be undone so easily... Tis human nature to be greedy and care only for yourself.





If there trully is a "second life" then it only alloys souls another chance to be corrupted by the great evils of this world. There are NEVER as many trying to go from "bad to good" because all the other souls never accept it and make it THAT much harder.  

[purpleravenhawk]

So-called "pure hate" is just part of the brain shutting down. In the courts, they call that "temporary insanity." It's not something to brag about. You feel no regret only because your brain didn't have the faculties to consider that you might not be right.

And yeah, calm hard work CAN fix these things. It just takes time. There are some areas that are "this" close to legalizing marijuana as I type this. There have been tons of laws over the years that have been overturned by people who worked at it. Ever heard of a little thing called Prohibition?

Why so damn negative lately? It's like you're purposely trying to oppose my upbeatness. Why?  

[xX Catgirl - Pierce Xx]

Meh... Legal terms >_>

Ever heard of a little something called "unfair condeming of people that possess banned material despite having never commited a crime in public" (good done now, can not fix the lives that bad has already ruined)

Hmm...
I... Don't know... ?
I guess lately I've just been seeing the world getting worse and worse (more and more) without any sign of ending. It gets me very down V_V  

[Iakun]

My sense of karma is not about revenge at all but there might not be a use discussing things along this vein since I get the sense our perceptions of "spiritual reality" may be very different.

Dude, the world might be going to hell but you don't have to go with it.  

[purpleravenhawk]

A crime in private is just as bad as a crime in public. But getting banned material unbanned is something that can be achieved. As for lives and events, lots of things happen that can't be fixed, considering we do not have time-traveling Deloreans. Doesn't mean we should brood about it for the rest of eternity. We're not immortal, and Angel would just be a downer in real life.

"Dude, the world might be going to hell but you don't have to go with it." THIS, A LOT.  

[xwhateverxdudex]

Iakun: LOL, indeed.

Purple: I say that the people that ruin others lifes (with no thought of what their action will do and no hope of correction) should be condemmed for the rest of THEIR lives.

I still refuse to give up on what I like just because others want it banned. (and I will despise those that try) I like hentai, we are NOT *****. Many don't even like pictures of young looking girls.
One guy posted one and the responce he got was "tits or GTFO" (very rude IMO)
Everyone has the right to like what we like, even more so if the entertainment isn't real.
But that's another argument entirely.  

[Iakun]

@purple: Now I wanna watch back to the future. This is all your doing. ninja