The What If Machine

[SYFFER]

Yoh-ko Rapper Ithilvalan

What if Morgoth wasn't chained but just killed?

Voltaire...*shudders* History is over for me this year...no more!

Well that's not a very accurate "What if?" question since Melkor an't be killed. He is not only immortal but the mightiest God. Melkor can not die and therefore he would have commited all his deeds anyways. A more accurate question would be "What if Melkor was never released?"  

[Falathrim]

Au contraire.

After the War of the Jewels, Namo killed Morgoth, then cast his bodyless soul into the Outer Dark.  

[SYFFER]

Falathrim

Au contraire.

After the War of the Jewels, Namo killed Morgoth, then cast his bodyless soul into the Outer Dark.

Well that depends on what you mean by "dead". If dying means that you lose your body then yes ofcourse but if it means that you are wiped out of existence then no that's not true. Melkor was "killed" as in stripped of his physical form but his soul continued to exist. As Sauron returned with a new physical form, Melkor may have returned in a new form but could not travel back to Arda without Eru's consent.  

[Falathrim]

First you say that Morgoth wasn't killed. Now you say he wasn't dead. For a Vala, those are two completely different things. Stop shifting your argument to suit your needs.  

[PearlZenith]

Well, if Melkor had just been disembodied and thrown into the void without being chained, he would have had a much less direct influence in a lot of horrible events. I'm thinking that Osse might have gotten uppity, though. It also would have shown good judgement on the part of Manwe, which might have Manwe somewhat interesting.
Ok, I have no clear cut ideas of how Ea would have been different. I still think that there would be evil things, probably caused by Maia who were influenced by Melkor.  

[Imyavie]

PearlZenith

Well, if Melkor had just been disembodied and thrown into the void without being chained, he would have had a much less direct influence in a lot of horrible events. I'm thinking that Osse might have gotten uppity, though. It also would have shown good judgement on the part of Manwe, which might have Manwe somewhat interesting.
Ok, I have no clear cut ideas of how Ea would have been different. I still think that there would be evil things, probably caused by Maia who were influenced by Melkor.

I agree. I'm pretty sure the deeds by Sauron may have still occured...  

[PearlZenith]

imyavie

PearlZenith

Well, if Melkor had just been disembodied and thrown into the void without being chained, he would have had a much less direct influence in a lot of horrible events. I'm thinking that Osse might have gotten uppity, though. It also would have shown good judgement on the part of Manwe, which might have Manwe somewhat interesting.
Ok, I have no clear cut ideas of how Ea would have been different. I still think that there would be evil things, probably caused by Maia who were influenced by Melkor.

I agree. I'm pretty sure the deeds by Sauron may have still occured...

Yes, that's what I was thinking. However, there may have been different interactions between Feanor and his half brothers. I'm not sure that Feanor wouldn't be suspicious of them, but it would have developed much more slowly, and his sons might have actually gotten around to having children. That would be interesting. Imagine a baby Maglor.
I'm not sure what would happen to Celebrimbor, though. Also, I wonder if the Noldor would have gotten so restless? I think so.  

[Rhaella]

I like SYFFER's interpretation. It means that all of my Elf-lords live. xd

@ PZ, yes. I agree that the Noldor would have been restless and finally left Aman even without Melkor's lies. After all, we have Feanor and his sons who "abode seldom in one place for long, but travelled far an wide upon the confines of Valinor, going even to the borders of the Dark and the cold shores of the Outer Sea, seeking the unknown" (of Eldamar).

And somewhere else (the fact that I don't need to look this up is scary xd ) there's mention of Finrod having the restlessness of the Noldor in his youth.

So I'm sure they would have eventually left. Without Morgoth, though, I can't imagine how different the results would have been. I doubt Thingol would have been too happy... sweatdrop  

[SYFFER]

Falathrim

First you say that Morgoth wasn't killed. Now you say he wasn't dead. For a Vala, those are two completely different things. Stop shifting your argument to suit your needs.

I said that he can't be "killed" the first time and that "killed" may have different meanings in the second. What do you mean they're two completely different things for a Vala? I think we should start being more clear with our word choice.  

[Zurgi]

SYFFER

Falathrim

First you say that Morgoth wasn't killed. Now you say he wasn't dead. For a Vala, those are two completely different things. Stop shifting your argument to suit your needs.

I said that he can't be "killed" the first time and that "killed" may have different meanings in the second. What do you mean they're two completely different things for a Vala? I think we should start being more clear with our word choice.

My interpretation of that is that "killing" a Vala doesn't mean the same as say, killing a human. Killing a Vala would make them lose their physical form but they could eventually rebuild, and their spirit would live on. So they wouldn't actually be "dead".

Of course, I might be completely wrong here.  

[Imyavie]

Zurgi

SYFFER

Falathrim

First you say that Morgoth wasn't killed. Now you say he wasn't dead. For a Vala, those are two completely different things. Stop shifting your argument to suit your needs.

I said that he can't be "killed" the first time and that "killed" may have different meanings in the second. What do you mean they're two completely different things for a Vala? I think we should start being more clear with our word choice.

My interpretation of that is that "killing" a Vala doesn't mean the same as say, killing a human. Killing a Vala would make them lose their physical form but they could eventually rebuild, and their spirit would live on. So they wouldn't actually be "dead".

Of course, I might be completely wrong here.

I always thought a human's spirit lives on after death too, but maybe that's just because of my beliefs...*shrugs*
What exactly do you mean by 'rebuild'? Rebuild their body back into what it was before?  

[Rhaella]

I think we should start a thread about it in the subforum. I don't want to post about it in the "What If's" thread, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Meaning... if one of you doesn't start one by tomorrow, I'm going to. xd

Speaking of starting threads...

What if the Sons of Feanor had not sworn their Oath?  

[Zurgi]

imyavie

Zurgi

SYFFER

Falathrim

First you say that Morgoth wasn't killed. Now you say he wasn't dead. For a Vala, those are two completely different things. Stop shifting your argument to suit your needs.

I said that he can't be "killed" the first time and that "killed" may have different meanings in the second. What do you mean they're two completely different things for a Vala? I think we should start being more clear with our word choice.

My interpretation of that is that "killing" a Vala doesn't mean the same as say, killing a human. Killing a Vala would make them lose their physical form but they could eventually rebuild, and their spirit would live on. So they wouldn't actually be "dead".

Of course, I might be completely wrong here.

I always thought a human's spirit lives on after death too, but maybe that's just because of my beliefs...*shrugs*
What exactly do you mean by 'rebuild'? Rebuild their body back into what it was before?

They do, but what I mean is...okay, take when Numenore was sucked into the ocean, for example. Sauron lost that physical form, so he was killed, but he managed to rebuild his body. That's what I'm trying to say.

Human's spirits live on after death as well, but not in the same way.  

[Imyavie]

Zurgi

imyavie

Zurgi

SYFFER

Falathrim

First you say that Morgoth wasn't killed. Now you say he wasn't dead. For a Vala, those are two completely different things. Stop shifting your argument to suit your needs.

I said that he can't be "killed" the first time and that "killed" may have different meanings in the second. What do you mean they're two completely different things for a Vala? I think we should start being more clear with our word choice.

My interpretation of that is that "killing" a Vala doesn't mean the same as say, killing a human. Killing a Vala would make them lose their physical form but they could eventually rebuild, and their spirit would live on. So they wouldn't actually be "dead".

Of course, I might be completely wrong here.

I always thought a human's spirit lives on after death too, but maybe that's just because of my beliefs...*shrugs*
What exactly do you mean by 'rebuild'? Rebuild their body back into what it was before?

They do, but what I mean is...okay, take when Numenore was sucked into the ocean, for example. Sauron lost that physical form, so he was killed, but he managed to rebuild his body. That's what I'm trying to say.

Human's spirits live on after death as well, but not in the same way.

Right. I just needed to clarify some stuff. 3nodding  

[Ithilvalan]

What if we all stop nitpicking? *g* No, I'm just kidding. By all means, do continue. Besides, that was my error.

Were the Vala living? Or were they just...there? I mean, if they were living, then when Morgoth was cast into the Void he would, in essence, be dead. If they were neither, then he just disappeared, and that I would say is different.