Who Is Better?

[Icege]

Angel Del Carmen

Well, if I can not do those things and still succeed with ease, I don't see how it's ridiculous. Not everyone has the same play style as you, and it doesn't take a wall to be a solid player. We didn't have walls in the older Tekken games, I don't see what makes them so necessary. If the fight steers towrds one I might use it for a second and then move away from it to continue the fight, or I may not use it at all depending on how I feel. I don't rely on the walls. IF I use them, as stated before, it is brief and sparingly. I am not handicapped in any way, shape, or form. You should respect that not every Tekken player has the same style of play as you, nor is your particular style a prerequisite to being a solid player.


Furthermore, while Nina and Anna may feel exactly the same to you, that doesn't mean every Tekken player on the face of the planet feels the same way. Look at how many people say Nina is faster than Anna when asked the question. Obviously they are noticing a diffrence when playing the two, be it fact or be it a result of the juggles they are using or what have you. The point is, the two characters feel diffrent to many. To generalize and state that there is no diffrentce in the feel between them is assuming everyone must feel exactly as you do when they play the game.

You can not use them and "succeed with ease" because you're playing against horrific competition that doesn't even grasp the basics of the game mechanics.

I can roll pretty much any scrub with any character in the game while not using their major tools. It doesn't mean I'm challenging myself. It just means the other player just isn't good and doesn't really warrant me to play them like they're any good. If I can win by just spamming Sonic Fang over and over with Steve, then I'll do it. Against good players, that will not happen. Even a somewhat competent player will do something about it. A scrub/newbie won't.

It's not about playstyle, it's about simple logic. If you deny yourself Anna's wall game in 5.0, you will not win consistantly against decent players. Simple as that. She doesn't really have any other tools worthwhile to make her effective. Sure she has the basic Williams poking abilities, but even then, her's isn't as much of a threat as Nina's due to Spider Knee JF. In order for Anna to be somewhat competitive on a tournament level, she's going to have to fish for walls. If she's without a wall, she can pretty much kiss her pretty behind goodbye because there's not much else she's going to be able to do. Her lows are lacking (though d/b+3 is excellent), so there's no real reason to duck, which would get you hit by her launchers and other decent mids. She's stuck praying for CH elbow launchers, and hoping to catch you ducking so she can launch you and wall carry.

What makes walls so necessary is that they're now there. We didn't have guns 500 years ago, but we sure as Hell use them now. We didn't have widely accessible computers that had Internet access 15 years ago, but we do now. Just because something wasn't there before doesn't mean it's not useful. On top of that, this is an entirely different game from before. Things are beyond what they used to be. Damage scaling is different, frame data has been changed, hitboxes are different, even simple movement is different.

Walls dictate the difference between doing 53dmg off a basic d/f+2 launch, and doing 88 or 112dmg. Characters have approximately 143pts on their lifebar. You just went from 36% to 78%. Immediately following the wall combo, if you did d/b+3 or d/f+2 and they guessed wrong, they would die. Plus, they're stuck. The only thing they can do is block, sidestep, or try to fish for a CH (which can lead to them losing as well). This is monstrous compared to say, Baek, who does 82dmg off of a basic launch into a wall combo (with a MUCH harder juggle might I add) and his basic 57dmg juggle (with generic d/f+2 launch).

You should respect and understand that you lack exposure to tournament level competition. You might have played a couple of guys who talked about how great they are, but note that I have yet to say once in this conversation where my abilities stand. Most people that brag about how good they are because they play in tournaments are usually just bracket fodder. Actual players will just mention they play in tournaments or for money, and that's that. You will not hear them voice their accomplishments, unless specifically asked to. Because of this, you do not have the experience or the simple know how to understand what there is outside of the world you've been exposed to. There are people out there who do a lot more than just play the game for hours on end. They look up frame data, study damages, assess situations and find out things that players like yourself would have no idea about (tech traps, for instance). They know what is free and can properly weigh the risk vs. reward ratio that is prevalent in fighting games.

By all means, have your own style of play. There are some people that prefer frame lockdown, while others prefer heavy amounts of spacing and punishing. A proper mixture of everything is what is best, but we all have our comfort zones. Just understand that you really don't know much about the game. Sure, your personal life prevents you from really finding out, and that is definitely more important. However, with that sacrifice comes the fact that you really won't do well unless you keep your mouth closed and ears and eyes open.

However, what you are doing is not a style of play. It is a stubborn arrogance that is in fact, a handicap. You "prefer" not to use walls. That's like saying you "prefer" not to do damage or win. As you've stated that you're quite competitive, I certainly hope you don't plan on saying that "winning isn't everything." That would contradict that first entire little intro you've made out.

They feel the same way because their basic movesets are the same. This game is made of mathematics. Their jabs are both 8-frames on start-up. All their basic moves that they share are all the same, exact speed. On the ground level, they are the same. They branch out from their with their own independent launchers and such, but they are equal in the terms of their poking game which is their bread and butter. On top of that, there are VERY few actual moves that strike which are less than 8-frames.

http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekken5/framedata.php?id=nina
http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekken5/framedata.php?id=anna

There is your frame data.

Obviously the people saying Nina is the faster of the two are not good at the game. Plain and simple. Look at the people that have come in and said, "They're equal." They either know, or they're just assuming. People mistake a lot of the time the speed at which they die for how fast the character is. In fact, some people will tell you Xiaoyu is the fastest character in the game. This is not true. There are characters with more moves that have less wind-up, but that doesn't make them faster. As said, jabs, which are the most basic attacks, are also the fastest (some exceptions, such as Yoshimitsu's ff+4). The fastest of these is 8-frames. Now if you were to say, "Nina or Anna are faster than Marduk," then you could argue that since Marduk's fastest move is 10-frames.

So no, people don't have to feel the same way I do about the game. I'm not arguing that they do. However, it doesn't matter what you feel when simple facts are brought into the matter, which is what video games are made of: facts. Mathematical algorithms and formulas which dictate how things go. In this case, speed is timing, which is translated into numbers, which goes right to our friend Mr. Mathematics. He says that they both go no faster than 8-frames, so neither are faster.

I'm not quite sure how you took my previous posts as an attack on you or your style of play, but that definitely wasn't the intent; just as it is not the intent in this reply. The intent is to provide you with the proper information you need to understand the game better.  

[Angel de Lys]

Wow...I didn't expect such a long and intricate post to respond to the basic statements I made in mine.

I don't know which way to tell you this that is going to make you realize the point I am making, but I am not saying Nina is faster than Anna, you have already proven your point that she's technically not. Fine, agreed. All I'm saying is it seems that way to most people. Seems. Point ended.

Secondly, you shouldn't assume that simply because a player is not facing opponents in a regulated tournament, that this makes their opponents crap. Do not judge a player unless you have played them, and as far as I can tell, you havn't faced any of my opponents. I am not saying they are Godly. I am also not saying they arn't talented. The point I am making is you have not faced them so you cannot judge. You cannot judge a person you havn't even laid eyes on, much less played against.

One point I can see is that the difference between us is that you obviously play according to mathematical equations and I play according to my gut. You cannot assume that math will always win over guts. I'm not assuming the opposite either. All I am saying is don't judge a player over the fact that they havn't played a tournement or they don't count frames.

As I have stated before in a diffrent post, I have zero desire to play in a tournament. There are a hundred things on my list of importance that overpower videogames. Videogames to me are just that: games. They are for fun, they are for play. I enjoy playing them, I enjoy being good at them, and yes, I enjoy winning at them. Obviously you don't play a game for the purpose of losing, you play to win.

What what, per say, would happen if I lost?

Well, I would ask for a re-match. I would play the challenger for as long as they were willing. I would attempt to beat them. If at game's end, I didn't beat them, I would probably say something smart-allecky, followed by a "kidding, kidding!", and then followed by taking the game CD out, putting it back in it's box, turning the system off, and MOVING ON.

And don't tell me I'm contradicting myself by saying that. YES, I LOVE winning, it's a GREAT feeling, HOWEVER, I won't fall on the floor and DIE if I lose. I won't LIKE losing, I WILL want to win, BUT sorry, no it's not EVERYTHING, when it concerns a plaything.

Yes, I love winning. Yes, I don't like to lose. Yes, I will attempt to beat someone whom I lose to.

But no, a game will not dictate my life. I will not go into depression if I lose. I will not practice for 78 hours straight. I will not memorize frame data. I will not spend hundreds of dollars to travel America in order to face strangers at a tournament. I simply won't

The only thing I ever travelled for in my life was a concert, and I was 18 years old, a drummer, and lived alone with no family. It barely cost me anything, and I didn't need to memorize frame data too see my concert either. I just had fun.

Look, if I happened to befriend someone who played tournaments and was extremly good at them, and they came to my house one day or vise versa, SURE, I'll play them, no problem.

But all this buissness of memorizing frame data and travelling around spending my money...it's just not a logical thing to spend my time and money on. And should my son someday spend hours trying to memorize frame data, that would be a sign that he is looking way too far into a game, a toy, and believe me, I would certainly take the opportunity to take him out more. Sure, games are great, they are fun, but when it crosses the line between something fun to do and something that consumes your time and money, it's time to take a step back, as it would with anything else that consumes you THAT much.

Quote:

Sure, your personal life prevents you from really finding out, and that is definitely more important. However, with that sacrifice comes the fact that you really won't do well unless you keep your mouth closed and ears and eyes open.

My personal life doesn't prevent me from doing things, it enbles me to live. Really, truly live. I thought I knew everything when I was 16, like every stupid 16 year old, but really I knew next to nothing. I didn't know half as much as I thought I did until I got married, until my son was born, until I walked outside and watched the sun set and truly, truly breathe. Having a family was most certainly not a sacrifice, quite the contrary. I didn't know what real happiness was until I first looked into my baby's eyes.


If I would have spent all my time practicing Tekken over and over...if I would have spent the little money I had on tournament after tournament after tournament...hell...I probably wouldn't have even met my husband. I would have never had my son. I would have missed out on everything I have accomplished in my life, all because I was too busy disecting a game.

Thank God I chose to put the paddle down after a given amount of exposure.


So to summararize, my points are the following...


1. No not judge a player you have never played.
2. You don't need to take every statement made completly literally (i.e. seems like Nina's faster when you play)
3. You don't require tournaments to be good.
4. You don't need to disect every forsaken thing the computer does to be good.

and again, I stress...

Do not judge a player you have never played.

That is all.  

[Icege]

Honey, I've been doing this for a long time. Just from conversing with somebody, I can tell where they stand and how good they'd actually be. It's like talking hockey with somebody. You can tell right off the bat whether or not they know exactly what's going on. It comes with time and experience. The money I've spent, the time I've dedicated, and the miles I've put on my vehicles give me the priviledge of being able to get a good grasp on somebody's concept of the game from a simple conversation. There have been countless people who have given me the, "Don't judge me until you play me!" spiel and 100% of the time, they've gotten wrecked. It's not because I'm so Godlike gamer, quite the opposite. It's simply because I know where I stand, and they don't. As a result, they don't realize they stand at the bottom and therefore do not realize how much more there is to the game than what they know.

These are also the people that once they're shown something great (or proven wrong), the only response they have is, "Oh, well, I have a life and can't spend all my time playing video games." If this is the case, why did they care so much to prove how they were to begin with? To get this out of the way, I'm pulling 60+ hour weeks with two jobs as well as going to college. I'm well aware of how we all have other priorities.

As for the response, I tend to go on long-winded rants to try and make it a bit easier for people to see where I'm coming from. I feel a thorough explanation is a lot better then some half-assed, "Here's the frame data, you're wrong, bye-bye!"

If she seems faster, and you yourself now admits that she is not, why is there even a point to be proven? I see clear as day that people think she's faster, but she's not. They're wrong. Simple as that. Even if she seems faster, she isn't, so there shouldn't be an issue. There's no reason to believe it when it's not true.

As for quality competition, I've been up and down the east coast. I remember who I played before and after I got into the tournament scene, along with who I play against that are not involved. Granted there are some very good players out there that don't play in tournaments, but they run into a wall that they'll never be able to get around as a result. This is speaking from personal experience, as a lot of my buddies around here that play don't travel to tournaments. As a result, they're not as good as my buddies that do get to go for one simple reason: knowledge. The guys that go out and play against other people, other play styles, other characters, etc, they get more exposure and therefore learn more. The guys that stay home don't. They won't know how to defend against it either, since they weren't there to see how other people dealt with it.

From the way you're talking, it's as if you believe there's some guy out in Montana that can beat the #1 surfer in the world when he's only able to surf in a pond on his farm. There's a monstrous difference between "being able" and "consistantly." I think you know which one matters most.

On top of all that, I've talked to many people who have played the Canadian Tekken players. The competition there is lacking. The best Canadian Tekken comp is in the Toronto area.

Also, for somebody spouting off "don't judge" nonsense, you sure are quick to judge yourself. I don't play strictly to mathematics. I play very differently from character-to-character. One thing that stays constant is that I do make sure to punish (whiffs and blocked). I don't use risky moves that could get me launched against somebody I know who will capitalize on my mistake as well. That's basic fighting game know how though.

Guts will get a win out of sheer luck. It'll never get consistant wins. Refer to earlier comment about which is more important.

Your gut will tell you to throw out a risky launcher or whiff a move. My logic will say, "This is free afterwards, get the damage in."

Your comment about "playing for fun," is something we both have in common. Fun for me is learning whatever I enjoy in depth so that I can be good at it. I don't like to half-a** things, therefore I don't. I also, am very competitive. I don't enjoy losing, but I understand it is a necessity in order to progress. It's a learning tool, and that's something I very much enjoy: learning.

Who enjoys losing anyways?

I find it hilarious that you're giving me flack for not "understanding" how you particularly like to do things, while the 2nd half of your post pretty much does nothing but attempt to cheap shot my personal preferences. Pot, this is kettle. You're black.

You also completely mistook my comment on personal life taking priority. I've had to sacrifice my passion for gaming just to make ends meet when I had moved out. You're not sacrificing it in vain, which might be how you took it. You're sacrificing it out of necessity, and in some cases it might be better for you. Personally, I'd prefer to play games all day rather than pull 60-hours a week with classes. I can only go to major tournaments nowadays, and that's a sacrifice I've had to make. Do I miss them? Sure. Would I go back? No, because as much of a hassle as it is, it's for the best.

Due to your lack of experience travelling in general, I'll let you in on a little tidbit of information: People ultimately go to tournaments to meet up and socialize with others that share their interests. Crazy, isn't it? Who would have thought that spending the time and money was for more than strictly just the video game. I've met some awesome friends through playing in Tekken tournaments, people that will be close friends of mine until I pass away. Tekken is just icing on the cake. The memories and experiences I've had with these people were more than worth all that time and money spent. Just as your son is more than likely worth the time and money spent.

Either way, congratulations on your display of hypocrasy. My intent was to show that the sisters were of equal speed, and that because you lack the proper exposure, it'd be very difficult for you to say otherwise. I've got more to type, but I've got a final due tonight that has been taking me all week to put together. If you're going to repeatedly tell someone not to judge others and how they do things, then you yourself need look in the mirror and tell yourself the same thing. There's a big difference between "showing what it's like" and completely ignoring what you say. Besides, I really don't care what you think of me. As long as you have the correct information, you can come to any conclusion you so desire ^..^

Do your son a favour though: If analyzing the game and breaking it down to its core is something he enjoys, don't try to take it away from him just because you don't share a similar passion. I guess those people doing charity work in 3rd World countries that are sinking their time and money into doing it shouldn't be. They're ultimately doing it because they enjoy it. Nobody is getting hurt either, and they're probably taking with them memories they'll cherish forever. The kind of memories that they'll tell their grandkids.  

[Angel de Lys]

Quote:

Either way, congratulations on your display of hypocrasy

I was begining to believe we could come to a friendly understanding, until I read the above area. You critize me for supoosedly cheapshotting you, but what do you call that? Sarcasm, anyone? You were being quite reasonable up to that point, honestly.

I'm sorry if you feel I judged you, and yes I may have been a little hypocritical as all human beings are to a point, but that's what happens when you repeatedly judge them yourself by telling them, in more words, that they are basically ignorant and everyone they face is crap. If you treat someone like they are inferior, they are going to have a reaction to that.

Quote:

Honey, I've been doing this for a long time. Just from conversing with somebody, I can tell where they stand and how good they'd actually be.

Using "honey" in such a sense is demeaning and offends me.

In the above quoted paragraph, you are basically saying that you're aware that you judge, and you're proud of your judging "abiliy". You can keep at it as much as you like, but I guarantee you, juding me through a post or two on a message board with nothing but text and a pixelated, cartoonish avatar, is not going to give you a realistic judgment. Even people who have seen me with their eyes and heard my voice speak to them don't know jack about me, so I don't see how your "ability to judge people" gives you the ability to judge me.

Quote:

On top of all that, I've talked to many people who have played the Canadian Tekken players. The competition there is lacking. The best Canadian Tekken comp is in the Toronto area.

You don't want to touch that one with a ten foot pole. I am not Canadian. I shall leave it at that.

Quote:

Due to your lack of experience travelling in general, I'll let you in on a little tidbit of information: People ultimately go to tournaments to meet up and socialize with others that share their interests. Crazy, isn't it? Who would have thought that spending the time and money was for more than strictly just the video game. I've met some awesome friends through playing in Tekken tournaments, people that will be close friends of mine until I pass away. Tekken is just icing on the cake. The memories and experiences I've had with these people were more than worth all that time and money spent. Just as your son is more than likely worth the time and money spent.

I believe you were mislead by my statement, "the only time I've travelled was for a concert". Rather what I meant by that was, that was the only time I travelled for the purpose of following something (i.e. You travel for tournaments, I travelled for the concert). However, I have travelled alot throughout my life, simply for the purpose of travelling and seeing the world, much of that was throughout my teen years. I have seen much of America. I have been a regular in New York City (I used to refer to it as my second home). Now, with the family, for when my son is old enough to remember it, my husband and I are planning a trip to Spain, France, and Germany, so we can all see our motherlands together.

I am sorry for the confusion. I have, travelled a lot. I will travel more.

If you make lots of friends when you travel, great. That's awsome. However, there wasn't really a way for me to know that because all you had mentioned over and over was the competition. In any case, what was concering me is you were only talking about the competition, which leads one to believe that's all it's about. If, however, as you put it, you also do it for the socializing, you meet great people, and it does your thing, great, by all means, I don't see an issue with that.

Quote:

Do your son a favour though: If analyzing the game and breaking it down to its core is something he enjoys, don't try to take it away from him just because you don't share a similar passion. I guess those people doing charity work in 3rd World countries that are sinking their time and money into doing it shouldn't be. They're ultimately doing it because they enjoy it. Nobody is getting hurt either, and they're probably taking with them memories they'll cherish forever. The kind of memories that they'll tell their grandkids.

Please do not compare playing a game to charitable work. You are comparing apples to oranges.

I do my son plenty of favors, thank you. I don't require him to do only things I like to do, however, as a parent, I will raise my son in such a way that will show him to flourish and experience many things life has to offer. If he's stuck in his room all day disecting a game, and I let him stay there all day every day, that wouldn't be very responsible of me, would it? Besides the health problems that come with lack of exercise and fresh air, he would be missing out on the whole world. I want him to HAVE fun memories with his parents, not have nothing but memories of himself in his room, alone, disecting games. I CARE FOR and LOVE my son, and he deserves to have a bright childhood full of fun experiences. Perhaps you'll understand these feelings if you have a child someday. Right now you may feel as though kids can stick themselves in ruts if they want to, but having children shifts the mindset. How many times have I told myself, "Now I get why my mom did that. Thank God."