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 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:25 am
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:29 am
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:44 am
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:45 am
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I don't appreciate your assertions over what I do and don't know. I have an intermediate seminary education and possess four Bibles, my personal favorite of which is the Oxford standard including the Apocrypha.
I think I might know more than a few verses.
SaintChaos lol. and how are we any different? as the example i gave with a poetic liscense, when you see a fire, do you not try to put it out? have WE not killed THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS in wars and in disputes to get our freedom for this country? and here we still fight it with Iraq, killing yet more people and shedding more blood. what? we're just gonna stand here why they terrorize our cities like on 9/11? the SAME CONCEPT is applied here. just simple logic my friend. in regards to god, yes he knows its going to happen before it happens but that doesnt mean its happened "yet". also, god gave us a "will" to use. just because he knows its going to happen doesnt mean hes going to force us to do those things. s**t happened because of our own fault and when we let it get too out of control to where WE cant stop it, someone else has to. when common city walkers can't put out a burning building they have to send in someone with a higher power (fire fighters) to put it out before it destroys anything else. SAME concept.
I'm afraid you completely missed my point. If God is omniscient (he knows how we will react to the environment around us) and omnipotent (he made everything we encounter) then how is he to hold us accountable for what is ultimately his work?
He created all things including Lucifer and us. He created the Garden of Eden and placed Adam and Eve there. He created the Tree of Knowledge. He created Adam and Eve knowing that they would be susceptible to lies and deceit. Then he knowingly allowed Lucifer to enter the garden and tempt humanity. He also knew how humans would take the bait and gain knowledge (why is God mad at us for wanting to know things, again?). Thus man was removed from the garden, thus was pain and death brought into the world, etc, etc.
So God made Tree tempting, gave Satan license to tempt us, then made us pay for doing the things he knew we would do when given the chance. What part of that is merciful or fair?
Also, you justify God killing off people because we do it? I thought God was different than us. You're saying that he is under the whip of our behavior, as he flies off on justice killing tangents of wrath? Or are you saying that God killed the people because they were bad?
Did he also kill all animals on earth during the flood because they were bad? Do you think all the infants that surely drowned in the supposed flood were bad? Why is it that 99% of known species are extinct?? This happened long before industrialization, so I must assume that it's the result of God making something, then deciding it's not good enough to keep. As he did with Humanity a few times.
SaintChaos Now now, temper temper. Someone seriously needs to be careful how they LOOSELY use the word "murder". Murder is killing, but with an EVIL MALICIOUS intent.
I think my above reply makes clear that God knows what he's doing, if the Bible is to believed; he's killing things for following the nature that he made in them. If killing something for doing what comes naturally isn't evil, then I'm terrified to know what is.
SaintChaos God is not evil and God is not malicious. its against his nature. it is also against his nature to lie, so the bible IS indeed true.
"God is honest because the Bible says so. The Bible is true because God says so."
Seems a weak platform for utter reverence.
SaintChaos if God was capable of lieing how would we be able to trust him? But did you bother reading the bible and those verses to see what type of people he was getting rid of? If you don't believe in god or the bible thats compeltely acceptable, but if your going to debate with me with things regarding the bible, i suggest you do heavy research like i do so you can back up your claims smile and i have PLENTY verses to quote and all you must do is but ask me and i shall. Also on a side note, mankind has no problem destroying himself. Do WE not get rid of "scum" when they walk our streets and rape our sisters or murder our families or torture our friends? just look at all the prisoners in jail. SAME concept.
See my first reply.
SaintChaos hmmm sounds familiar. oh wait! look on the news! some marines just destroyed an Iraqi building. oh boo hoo.
That's the loving, mercy-filled spirit of Christianity hard at work, hmm? Mocking the deaths of others?
SaintChaos And you have to understand God's nature. He is one being who has separated himself spiritually into two other beings of himself, the son and the holy ghost. not to be confused as two separate gods. the bible is monotheism, not polytheistic. So when he sent his son, in reality he was sending a "part of himself". But when his son was tortured, that was NOT his fault. Jesus rightfully allowed the jews to torture him the way they did. Jesus suffered because of mankind, not because of God. He allowed it to happen for a reason and that reason was being to be put on the cross to die for EVERYONES SINS. lol SOMEONE needs to read a little bit about the Resurrection biggrin
First off, what's with picking on the Jews? Antisemitism is a well known Christian indulgence, but I thought you'd at least be smart enough to make a better founded accusation. According to the Bible, the Jews were wary of Christ and made his life hard but it was the Romans who tortured and killed him. So that whole statement is not only historically incorrect, it's also bigoted.
It's very hard not to believe that you're being condescending, what with the "lols" and the smilies. I didn't even bring up that unforgivable joke of Three-but-one-Triune. Nobody yet has a solid answer to why God couldn't just wipe the slate clean and forgive our sin without some masochistic blood show. If he was willing to kill most of the animals that ever existed and wipe out all but a handful of humanity, how hard is it for him to just relieve us of the sin burden? I remind you that I never chose to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, according to the story; Adam did. I can't think of any justice system in the world that punishes a person for what their ancestor did.
Again, the torture and death of Christ was expressly God's doing and he is fully culpable for it. God Created the world, he allowed sin to enter it, he decided to punish his lamb-son in the stead of humanity. You tell me how God is uninvolved in the crucifixion, yet omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and personal to every human.
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:38 am
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Quote: I don't appreciate your assertions over what I do and don't know. I have an intermediate seminary education and possess four Bibles, my personal favorite of which is the Oxford standard including the Apocrypha. I think I might know more than a few verses.
oooooOOOOPS stepped on some toes. okay okay lol sorry. just most of the time when ive gotten on debates with people on such matters, they told me they never read the bible and were only going off of what others have told them. but in THIS case then by all means, post away smile i apologize for the wrong conclusion.
Quote: I'm afraid you completely missed my point. If God is omniscient (he knows how we will react to the environment around us) and omnipotent (he made everything we encounter) then how is he to hold us accountable for what is ultimately his work?
simple, because God gave man a will.
Quote: He created all things including Lucifer and us. He created the Garden of Eden and placed Adam and Eve there. He created the Tree of Knowledge. He created Adam and Eve knowing that they would be susceptible to lies and deceit. Then he knowingly allowed Lucifer to enter the garden and tempt humanity. He also knew how humans would take the bait and gain knowledge (why is God mad at us for wanting to know things, again?). Thus man was removed from the garden, thus was pain and death brought into the world, etc, etc.
simple, everything has a purpose.
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Quote: So God made Tree tempting, gave Satan license to tempt us, then made us pay for doing the things he knew we would do when given the chance. What part of that is merciful or fair?
um excuse me, God does not tempt. lol or have you not read:
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
And in regards to the last part of that, again, everything has a purpose even if it doesn't make sense to us.
Quote: Also, you justify God killing off people because we do it? I thought God was different than us. You're saying that he is under the whip of our behavior, as he flies off on justice killing tangents of wrath? Or are you saying that God killed the people because they were bad?
Now don't go changing my words. I didn't say it was okay for God to kill something because we do the same thing, I was using US as an example. People try to point fingers at god before they even consider themselves is the point I was trying to make. I justify God killing off sinful, beyond all recognition, creations because if they can't stop themselves who will? God wiped them out because they were engulfed so badly in sin they could not save them self, and they were spreading it. This can be put into regards of Moses and the isrealites, and for the cities of Sodom and Gamorrah. There are other accounts as well.
Quote: Did he also kill all animals on earth during the flood because they were bad? Do you think all the infants that surely drowned in the supposed flood were bad? Why is it that 99% of known species are extinct?? This happened long before industrialization, so I must assume that it's the result of God making something, then deciding it's not good enough to keep. As he did with Humanity a few times.
First off animals are neither good nor bad. they don't have a soul and they aren't capable of sin or evil. in fact many times of the bible accounts for when cattle and or sheep are used for sacrifices. how is that any different than what we do today? in fact most of the time they're either game for hunters and abused by sadistic animal owners, neither of which god has done like we have.
and the killing of infants? ha....HAHAHHAHAH and you think abortion is okay? i consider it murder. you may not, but I DO! the bible is also against it.
Quote: I think my above reply makes clear that God knows what he's doing, if the Bible is to believed; he's killing things for following the nature that he made in them. If killing something for doing what comes naturally isn't evil, then I'm terrified to know what is.
of course he knows what he's doing. he's killing them for the choices they WILLINGLY DECIDED to make. just because sin is in our nature, doesn't' mean he forces us TO sin. sin is entirely a self willed choice we decide to make each day.
Quote: Seems a weak platform for utter reverence.
weak or not its what i believe. so too bad blaugh however, i can reiterate what you just said in another form of light. The bible is God speaking to us in a physical form that is something we can read. its called "His WORD" for a reason. So in other words, God is saying that he speaks truth.
Mankind is also capable of speaking the truth, just not as often wink
Quote: That's the loving, mercy-filled spirit of Christianity hard at work, hmm? Mocking the deaths of others?
lol someone took my words out of context again. how about you go back and read what i meant by my statement wink it was in reference to what YOU said, and i was merely coming up with some example in my head to further make my point. i never said "its funny that people are dieing in the war". lol please dont make of things i never said wink thank you heart
Quote: First off, what's with picking on the Jews?
what the HELL are you talking about it? i just merely stated a FACT that the jews of that time were the ones that tortured him and stuck him on the cross. i never said anything to the affect of "screw the jews". please read more carefully. thank you heart
Quote: It's very hard not to believe that you're being condescending, what with the "lols" and the smilies.
be careful with prejudgments to who i am. we've never met before in life or online until now. i merely show smiley faces and what have you because they're more welcoming with a statement then angry faces and hostility that isn't necessary. also im being quite genuine with my responses, using smiley faces to show a less hostile debate. i have no intention of being condescending. if i wanted to there could be A LOT MORE harsh words i could have used then what im using now.
Quote: unforgivable joke of Three-but-one-Triune.
Quote: Nobody yet has a solid answer to why God couldn't just wipe the slate clean and forgive our sin without some masochistic blood show.
Masochistic blood show? It wasn't God's choice to what they wanted to do to Jesus. Secondly, are you getting that idea of what happened from something you saw in a movie or tv? And what I mean by that is, at least for everyone who's seen Passion of the Christ, Hollywood has a tendency to over exaggerate things.
There isnt much description of how he was tortured except in the greek version of the texts regarding him dieing on the cross, they described his back as a "plowed field". and thats about it. but what matters of how he died and how he didn't? the point of the whole thing was to cleanse the earth of its sin. that includes sins futuristically done by us. his cleansing of our sins covers us past present and future.
so even if we sin, we are cleansed regardless of what we do. but as i said before above, man still has a will. god gave us a will and we have a choice of what we want to do. not ALL choices, but the main ones that we pick everyday.
Quote: Again, the torture and death of Christ was expressly God's doing and he is fully culpable for it. God Created the world, he allowed sin to enter it, he decided to punish his lamb-son in the stead of humanity. You tell me how God is uninvolved in the crucifixion, yet omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and personal to every human.
I didn't say he was entirely uninvolved. He allowed it to happen yes, but the rest was chosen by Jesus of what he wanted to do for us, and the rest after that was done by mankind of what they wanted to do to Jesus.
i think that covered everything. if i missed something let me know ^_^ now i must get off. its 1:38 am and im tired. |
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:40 am
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:30 am
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You say that God doesn't tempt us, indeed, even the Bible states as much. Yet according to your Bible, was it not God who created me? Was it not he who made me a person, fallible, allowing me to be born with a sin nature, and willingly allowed sin to enter the world? Was it not he who decided that the punishment for sins of some man (Adam) millenia ago should be inflicted on every human being until they buy into his loan of redemption?
You are knowingly evading the thrust of my argument which is that if God created all this and knows all things, then he is making us pay for reactions to circumstances he set in place. Until you acknowledge that omniscience and omnipotence demand responsibility, this cannot be a debate and will only be your cherry picked opinions on who or what God is.
Your statement about human free will is a copout. At the risk of repeating myself, either God created everything and knew how it would react, making him ultimately responsible no matter how we respond to our environment, or we have true free will and God is not omnipotent because he must honor our choices. The fact is that we do not have free will - we cannot wish a million dollars into our bank account, nor can we take flight - we are limited by physical reality, therefore our will isn't free at all, but leashed.
Animals, regardless of their posited goodness or badness, are still God's creation. Why would he make millions of species, then kill them? Was the unicorn not good enough to keep around? Did God make a mistake, or is he merely capricious and destructive?
And what was that about you being able to say harsher things? That you're so kind for restraining yourself? That I should be intimidated? If those aren't the conclusions, then why even bother making that statement?
The Three-but-one-Triune is another name for the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, The Father, The Son And The Holy Spirit (did I capitalize enough things? Let's Capitalize A Few More Just To Make Sure It Stays Holy).
Next; I've never watched the Passion of the Christ as I think Gibson's a racist, an a*****e and a shitty director. I do know that the Bible says Christ had to drag his own execution piece before the town, had a flail struck against his back the whole way, had nails driven through his limbs and was stabbed in the side with a spear (possibly after he was dead). That is horrific, grisly torture, psychological and physical, and morbid beyond compare. Crucifixions caused multiple agonizing mortal injuries, with the victims usually suffocating of liquid buildup in their lungs or slow blood loss.
And I am appalled that you again assert that the Jews were responsible for the death of Christ. The Bible, your source of authority on this argument, states clearly and unquestionably that Pilate issued the death sentence and that Roman soldiers nailed and hung Christ. Say what you will for political pressure from the Jews but I have trouble believing that an conquered people with no representation in the Roman government was able to enact such a lofty endeavor on their own.
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:38 am
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:54 am
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SaintChaos ProjectOmicron88 Theophrastus SaintChaos [...]then that should be your answer. if your creations were running about rampant sinning so corruptly they cant save themselves, you just gonna stand there? you should read about the story of Soddom and Gamorrah how the entire CITY went so corrupt and were so drowning in sin they could not save them self. why do you think the flood happened? look at it this way, when a fire starts and it gets out of control, you try to put it out before it engulfs everything around it, SPREADING and DESTROYING everything that comes near it. Quoted for lulz. Are you serious? Did you just tell me that those people got out of control? Out of control? So what is it? Is God omnipotent or not? Seems like a pretty strong contradiction to his own claims about himself. If the Bible is true, God is a murderer. He killed every single person on earth with the exception of 8. He drowned his entire creation. He burned down cities and tribes, swallowed up armies and even tortured and killed his own son. And then people tell me he's loving? Sorry, friend; I call bullshit. Through the complex series of segues that are my thought processes, you have reminded me of something else. I have heard Christians say that we know morality because God puts his morals into our hearts before we're even born. First of all, morality is learned through empirical observation and learning...this is why parents discipline their children. Second, if we already know good moral values, why does God feel it necessary to reiterate every single moral he supposedly already gave us? (read: Decalogue) lol thats the first time ive ever heard that. i know the bible says that God made us in his image but that is a very VAGUE statement and can be taken many ways. in fact, our morality is of our own choice. its not something that god embeds in us, otherwise, as you said, what would be the point of reiterating what was already in us. but its not. according to the bible we are burdened with sin, and our bodies naturally seek after the desires of the flesh, so morality couldnt possibly be already embedded into us.
And that, in itself, is probably the biggest contradiction of them all. Every religion and every sect is so certain they're right and everyone else is wrong. If religion is supposed to be self-evident, why doesn't everyone have their stories straight? |
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:01 pm
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ProjectOmicron88 SaintChaos ProjectOmicron88 Theophrastus SaintChaos [...]then that should be your answer. if your creations were running about rampant sinning so corruptly they cant save themselves, you just gonna stand there? you should read about the story of Soddom and Gamorrah how the entire CITY went so corrupt and were so drowning in sin they could not save them self. why do you think the flood happened? look at it this way, when a fire starts and it gets out of control, you try to put it out before it engulfs everything around it, SPREADING and DESTROYING everything that comes near it. Quoted for lulz. Are you serious? Did you just tell me that those people got out of control? Out of control? So what is it? Is God omnipotent or not? Seems like a pretty strong contradiction to his own claims about himself. If the Bible is true, God is a murderer. He killed every single person on earth with the exception of 8. He drowned his entire creation. He burned down cities and tribes, swallowed up armies and even tortured and killed his own son. And then people tell me he's loving? Sorry, friend; I call bullshit. Through the complex series of segues that are my thought processes, you have reminded me of something else. I have heard Christians say that we know morality because God puts his morals into our hearts before we're even born. First of all, morality is learned through empirical observation and learning...this is why parents discipline their children. Second, if we already know good moral values, why does God feel it necessary to reiterate every single moral he supposedly already gave us? (read: Decalogue) lol thats the first time ive ever heard that. i know the bible says that God made us in his image but that is a very VAGUE statement and can be taken many ways. in fact, our morality is of our own choice. its not something that god embeds in us, otherwise, as you said, what would be the point of reiterating what was already in us. but its not. according to the bible we are burdened with sin, and our bodies naturally seek after the desires of the flesh, so morality couldnt possibly be already embedded into us. And that, in itself, is probably the biggest contradiction of them all. Every religion and every sect is so certain they're right and everyone else is wrong. If religion is supposed to be self-evident, why doesn't everyone have their stories straight?
simple, people like to come up with their own ideas either because of many reasons. one of them being because they don't accept what they read, therefore they come up with new words or new concepts and twist and wrap what was original, and corrupt it into something else.
and thus you have different "versions" of the original. regarding the bible the most common "other" versions are the King James, New King James, Book of Mormon, Catholic Bible, NIV, and i think some others. |
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:03 pm
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Spritely! At The Disco Sanguvixen Many of the so called contradictions come down to how things were translated from one language into english. For example what we call the "Red Sea" is actually correctly written "Reed Sea" because the body of water was named after the reeds, not the color red. It was a mistake in translation. That's really interesting. Isn't it funny how people have exaggerated things that were mistakes in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard several people say that it was named the Red Sea, or at least further believed it to be the RED Sea, due to the fact that Moses turned it to blood. If this is the case, then the Bible and those who generally think everything in the Bible to be THE Truth, then not only are there contradictions, but there are lies, and obvious ones at that.
heh, i found an interesting read on wikipedia about this
Quote: Red Sea is a direct translation of the Greek Erythra Thalassa (Ερυθρά Θάλασσα), Latin Mare Rubrum, Arabic Al-Baḥr Al-Aḥmar (البحر الأحمر), and Tigrinya Qeyḥ bāḥrī (ቀይሕ ባሕሪ). The name of the sea does not indicate the color of the water since it is not red in color. It may signify the seasonal blooms of the red-colored cyanobacteria Trichodesmium erythraeum near the water surface. Some suggest that it refers to the mineral-rich red mountains nearby which are called Harei Edom (הרי אדום). Edom, meaning "ruddy complexion", is also an alternative Hebrew name for the red-faced biblical character Esau (brother of Jacob), and the nation descended from him, the Edomites, which in turn provides yet another possible origin for Red Sea.[citation needed] Another hypothesis is that the name comes from the Himarites, a local group whose own name means red.[citation needed] Yet another theory favored by some modern scholars is the name red is referring to the direction south, the same way the Black Sea's name may refer to north. The basis of this theory is that some Asiatic languages used color words to refer to the cardinal directions[citation needed]. Herodotus on one occasion uses Red Sea and Southern Sea interchangeably.[1] A final theory suggests that it was named so because because it borders the Egyptian Desert which the ancient Egyptians called the Dashret or "red land"; therefore it would have been the sea of the red land.[citation needed] The association of the Red Sea with the Biblical account of the Exodus, in particular in the Passage of the Red Sea, goes back to the Septuagint translation of the book of Exodus from Hebrew into Koine, in which Hebrew Yam suph (ים סוף), meaning Reed Sea, is translated as Erythra Thalassa (Red Sea). Yam Suph is also the name for the Red Sea in modern Hebrew.
But my Biblical Pictorial Dictionary also mentions this
Quote: "It is not quite evident that the Red Sea rendering is erroneous, as Yam Suph should be rendered "Reed Sea" or "Marsh Sea". I tis highly improbable that the northern arm of the Red sea (the Gulf of Suex) is meant. There are no reeds in the Red Sea. In addition, the text implies that the Yam Suph formed the barrier between the land of Egypt and th desert. If that which we think of as the Red Sea were intended, then Israel would have been obliged to cross a far greater terriotry in a far shorter span of time than the account actually indicates. Be it recalled that the Israelite as a nation of slaves reside in Goshen. Near the city of Ramses-Tanis (Goshen), there were two bodies of water, The "Waters of Horus" which is the same as Shihor (Is. 23:3; Jer. 2:18 ), and a body of water which the Egyptians themselves referred to as Suph, called also the "papyrus marsh." This last mentioned "Sea of Reeds" or Lake Timsah is beyond reasonable doubt the body of water crossed by the fleeing Israelites, with the Egyptians in hot pursuit."
excuse any typos |
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:13 pm
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SaintChaos Semper Fiasco I find it very telling that most Christians immediately reject atheists' objections to verses suggesting an evil God as being either allegorical or "out of context," but readily accept all of the verses purporting the all-too-common messages of God's love exactly as they are written. If we're going to cry "out of context," let's apply it to everything. lol it depends on how you look at things. first off, i reject your "objections" because they were taken out of context. nothing more nothing less. i accept the verses because i understand how they're put together. one concept is supported by underlying concepts. lol i REFUSE to take something out of context because then my words and evidence are worthless if they're not fully studied and fully read, which i have done since i learned how to read.
So really, all you're saying is that you're God and that you're allowed to interpret the Bible the way you want. And it's always the right way.
Oh, and please elaborate on these underlying concepts. I'm anxious to know whether or not they're decided by a local pastor. |
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:49 pm
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Quote: You say that God doesn't tempt us, indeed, even the Bible states as much. Yet according to your Bible, was it not God who created me? Was it not he who made me a person, fallible, allowing me to be born with a sin nature, and willingly allowed sin to enter the world? Was it not he who decided that the punishment for sins of some man (Adam) millenia ago should be inflicted on every human being until they buy into his loan of redemption?
Yes to all those things except the last one. He punishes us each "separately". all our sins are cleansed because of jesus but we are all EACH held accountable for the sins we CHOOSE to do.
Quote: You are knowingly evading the thrust of my argument which is that if God created all this and knows all things, then he is making us pay for reactions to circumstances he set in place. Until you acknowledge that omniscience and omnipotence demand responsibility, this cannot be a debate and will only be your cherry picked opinions on who or what God is.
evade? pfft, whats the point of evading? im just responding to what you said in the way that i saw it and interpreted what you were saying to me. if theres something i misunderstood about what you said, please reiterate any given point. however my brother said i have a tendency to go around someones question without directly answering it, so i do apologize if thats what ive done.
Now in regards to your statement here, he has merely "set" the place. it is up to us what we "decide" to do. man has a will does he not? what WE choose to do is merely of consequence to ourself.
suffering and chaos is caused by two things:
1)our own fault or
2) those around us
every action has a consequence, good or bad does it not? so to merely blame it on god i think is a cowards way out of taking account for the actions an individual decides to make on their own.
Quote: Your statement about human free will is a copout. At the risk of repeating myself, either God created everything and knew how it would react, making him ultimately responsible no matter how we respond to our environment, or we have true free will and God is not omnipotent because he must honor our choices. The fact is that we do not have free will - we cannot wish a million dollars into our bank account, nor can we take flight - we are limited by physical reality, therefore our will isn't free at all, but leashed.
*sighs* please read what i say more carefully. i never said man has a FREE will. i dont believe in free will, i believe in "limited" will. thats why i am always saying man has "A" will....not a free will. and heres why.
quoting my personal beliefs that are on monergism.com
Quote: "...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
Quote: Animals, regardless of their posited goodness or badness, are still God's creation. Why would he make millions of species, then kill them? Was the unicorn not good enough to keep around? Did God make a mistake, or is he merely capricious and destructive?
im going to do some research on the word "unicorn" so ill reply to this very thing later. because my bible uses the word "wild ox" but we'll see. but in regards to your statement in generalities, do WE not slaughter thousands of creatures either for game or for food? do some people not "abuse" their pets for self worth or for selfish self gain?
and as recently do we not use animals for scientific testing as they're being tortured by these chemicals or going against their possible will but they can't speak back to us about it? the Planet of the Apes is a classic example of this very thing, if our world was reversed im pretty sure itd be exactly to what Planet of the Apes describe.
So pointing fingers at god for something we do WORSE then what he would do, is HIGHLY hypocritical. but he didn't wipe out every single animal. he DID indeed spare two creatures of every creature so they could repopulate. two of each creature.....theres THOUSANDS of creatures that he saved even if its just two of each kind, it quickly adds up.
so maybe thousands died, but thousands were just as equally saved.
Quote: And what was that about you being able to say harsher things? That you're so kind for restraining yourself? That I should be intimidated? If those aren't the conclusions, then why even bother making that statement?
i dont know what your problem is honestly, but the WHOLE POINT of my statement was to say that, and to quote the bible "harsh words bring up strife". what is the point of me saying something that isn't necessary? what is the point of me getting all angry and stupid just because someone is refuting me? you tell me, whats the point of that?
again i say, i happily recognize that you believe differently than me and for me to take anything personal is completely pointless and stupid. i REFUSE to take anything personal. and thus id rather show "smilely" faces then to show unnecessary harsh words and "angry" childish faces.
Quote: The Three-but-one-Triune is another name for the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, The Father, The Son And The Holy Spirit (did I capitalize enough things? Let's Capitalize A Few More Just To Make Sure It Stays Holy)
you know for one who presumes that im being condenscending, your just merely mocking in this particular statement. a little hypocritical aren't we? i merely capitalize things because i feel like it. theres no grand reasoning behind it. smile do you not capitalize your own name? its merely a habit for me.
Quote: Next; I've never watched the Passion of the Christ as I think Gibson's a racist, an a*****e and a shitty director. I do know that the Bible says Christ had to drag his own execution piece before the town, had a flail struck against his back the whole way, had nails driven through his limbs and was stabbed in the side with a spear (possibly after he was dead). That is horrific, grisly torture, psychological and physical, and morbid beyond compare. Crucifixions caused multiple agonizing mortal injuries, with the victims usually suffocating of liquid buildup in their lungs or slow blood loss.
okay that makes A LOT more sense than what you said earlier. and in that case i say again, the things that were done to him were willfully chosen by what the people wanted to do to him. man has a limited will but he did indeed choose those things. jesus allowed it to happen because it was inevitable of what his goal was for dieing on the cross. he knew what was going to happen and willfully choose to let them do those things.
what...you thinking taking on the sins of the world would be a walk in the park? Jesus was chastised and fought against for his entire time on earth and they didn't take likely to blasphemers since he directly told them that he was the son of god, they considered it blasphemy, and which is also considered an unforgivable sin if im not mistaken. so for them to take him likely and not go unpunished? you bet their a** they're going to do something about it.
Quote: And I am appalled that you again assert that the Jews were responsible for the death of Christ. The Bible, your source of authority on this argument, states clearly and unquestionably that Pilate issued the death sentence and that Roman soldiers nailed and hung Christ. Say what you will for political pressure from the Jews but I have trouble believing that an conquered people with no representation in the Roman government was able to enact such a lofty endeavor on their own.
actually i hold nothing against the jews. in fact they are my very kinsmen, so to do so would only to be pushing away "myself". if that makes any sense. i was just merely stating that they ALONG WITH THE ROMANS had a part in what was done to jesus. which is sad, BECAUSE of that very fact, that jews are held negatively.....how hypocritical. but yes the romans did things too, everyone had a part.
in fact the Romans were BRUTAL to any christian. ive read plenty of passages, not just from the bible, but from history books of what they did to Christians. so to reiterate my statement, everyone had a part in what they did to Jesus. |
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:50 pm
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:56 pm
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Semper Fiasco SaintChaos Semper Fiasco I find it very telling that most Christians immediately reject atheists' objections to verses suggesting an evil God as being either allegorical or "out of context," but readily accept all of the verses purporting the all-too-common messages of God's love exactly as they are written. If we're going to cry "out of context," let's apply it to everything. lol it depends on how you look at things. first off, i reject your "objections" because they were taken out of context. nothing more nothing less. i accept the verses because i understand how they're put together. one concept is supported by underlying concepts. lol i REFUSE to take something out of context because then my words and evidence are worthless if they're not fully studied and fully read, which i have done since i learned how to read. So really, all you're saying is that you're God and that you're allowed to interpret the Bible the way you want. And it's always the right way. Oh, and please elaborate on these underlying concepts. I'm anxious to know whether or not they're decided by a local pastor.
sure why not? im god...i know all.....please save me the bull crap. what i said was completely legitimate and i think i do have some credit to understanding the bible with the resources i have and the studying ive done since i was a kid. and im still learning new things. im not saying i know all, but im not going to modest and pretend i dont have a good understanding of most passages in the bible, especially dealing with the heaviest controversies that ive debated wtih fellow Christians for the last following years now.
im also not going to claim you know nothing about atheism. you've been an atheist since you can remember have you not? for you to say something similar to what ive said, i wouldn't deny it.
do you see what im saying now? |
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