You know what I don't get?

[ProjectOmicron88]

SaintChaos

Theophrastus

What the ******** does an infant who dies at two weeks old "have to learn" from being born with mortal congenital defects? Did she have sinful thoughts in the womb? Otherwise, why would God curse her so? For the actions of her parents? She's not old enough to profess a sincere belief in Jesus Christ since she doesn't even know what a word or a book is. Obviously she's doomed to hell.

I really can't believe the things you back up.

infants who die at birth or die before they are born are already judged by God. and sin does not exist in an infant until they have knowledge of what it is. babies are just about the only creature on earth, other than animals, that are deemed innocent.

however if they were to live and had not died for whatever circumstance, god still knows their past present and future. he knows their actions before they're even thought of in the mind.

thus they're judged accordingly. dont confuse this as the idea that all babies go to hell. that isnt true.

but just because a baby dies or is born with defects is not god's fault. they are born however they are born.

There's a such thing as natural sin in Christian mythology. This is why babies are baptized.  

[Theophrastus]

*tips his hat to ProjectOmicron88, steps away and has a sandwich*  

[Six Billion of Spades]

SaintChaos

Theophrastus

Child prostitution, rape, AIDS - these things are indefensible.

So if God made all people and all things and has, by his Divine Plan (TM) allowed them to happen then he is responsible. The reason theists have to hide behind "we can't understand God's will" is the same reason nobody has ever replied to the Riddle of Epicurus; because there is no answer but that there is no God.

don't blame the guilt of mankind and his actions on god. this is my take on the whole "allowing it to happen" theory.

Without suffering in the world what the hell would we learn? If a child is to learn why they should not touch the fire and they are told not to but do anyway, they get burned and learn from that experience. but if the child is constantly saved, what is the child truly going to learn if they don't suffer a little.

the disease of aids is spread by mankind. the disease of STD's is spread because people can't keep their legs closed or their d**k in their pants.

there are rapists and child molesters etc etc because some people just choose to be that way or for whatever other reason. but we don't need god to stop this, we have whats called the Police. no not 100% of it can be stopped at once, but as they say "where there is light, there is always darkness" and the vice versa of that is just as true.

evil will always exist just as suffering will always exist.

god how many times do i have to say this.....suffering is caused by one of two things:

1)your own damn fault
2)the idiots around you

Example: Person A hates God because God didn't stop his father from abusing him. But lets look at the statistics here. Its not God's fault that the father is CHOOSING to be a complete d**k head and abuse his son. Its also not God's fault that the mother was STUPID ENOUGH to marry and MATE with a person like that and bare a son only to have the son be yet another victim.

In this example its not the boy's fault but the fault of the mother and father for his suffering. Not God's. And the example I gave is actually true of someone I know because they were ranting to me as to why they hated God etc etc.

Religiously speaking in christian logic, just because you THINK you need or want something now doesn't mean you're going to get it. Sometimes what we think is best for us isn't best at all for that particular place and time. In regards to praying and asking things from God, thats how that kicks in. God can see past present and future. Time is unlimited to him and he can see as far into the future as he wants. Regarding his plan individually for each of us, he knows the choices we would make and the consequences of that choice good or bad. So just because we want something, doesn't mean it might be the best thing for us.

So if I pray for like a million bucks right now, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be getting it any time soon or probably ever. I could also pray for the ability to fly like a bird, but that probably isn't going to happen for whatever reasons.

Its not as plain as simple as people make it out to be when it comes to God allowing suffering in the world.

Suffering helps us grow and makes us stronger for harder times to come, because guess what buddy, there is always going to be some type of suffering so get used to it. But the most important thing we learn from any suffering in general is the knowledge and experience we gain and the lesson we learn from that suffering. Sometimes the lesson to be learned isn't learned for many years. Sometimes we gain the knowledge right away. It all depends. In short, I'd rather suffer, then to be completely ignorant.

Erm... mmhmm.

The whole "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger" view. You'd probably like Nietzsche. Pretty spiffy guy. Didn't believe in God, though.

First of all, I rather like the way you ended up contradicting yourself by first claiming that suffering is humanity's fault and later assigning it a divine purpose, thus implying that God does have something to do with it. Bravo.

But on to the point at hand. Imagine God sitting in his little cloud-palace (or whatever God decides to sit in these days), watching a two-story house - containing three children of two parents tearfully watching outside - burn to the ground. The parents zealously ask God to step in and save their children. Here's God's response:

"Psh. You expect me to jump in every time something like this happens? Relax; everything's fine. Besides, I'm teaching you a lesson. Can't have everything you want in life, can you? Tsk tsk tsk... when will you people realize that stuff like this happens all the time? Just get over it and move on."

By this logic, we should be praising arsonists, murderers, child rapists, and the like. Why? Because they're helping people grow. You know: teaching them a lesson about the real world. I'm starting to believe that director James Wan had a point when he conceived the character of Jigsaw. Of course, Jigsaw didn't exactly have God-powers, either.

If the only way an omnipotent, omniscient, loving god could possibly teach and strengthen us is by making us suffer, then what kind of god is he? Any being with "omni" powers should surely be capable of finding a better way than that to go about things. Unless God just can't seem to find the Prozac.

Besides, if you claim that god is not responsible for suffering, then answer me this: is your god responsible for goodness? Better yet: does he even interfere with the world at all? If so, then you're probably more of a deist than a Christian.

Apologies if I sound a bit harsh and persecute-y. People tell me that all the time, but I just don't see it.  

[ElenaMason]

Theophrastus

God treats a fetus (baby) in the womb as a living person.

[url=http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-cultureandsocietyinfluences/abortionoflifeinthewomb-sinandgodsforgiveness.asp]this site[/url]

[...]

Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God (Psalm 22:9-10).

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (Psalm 139:13-16).

Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you (Isaiah 46:3-4).

God created all living things including bacteria, viruses and other illness-creating nasties. Genesis 1:20-27.

Christian doctrine teaches that Christ had to be born with no human father because sin is passed down from the father, however every one of us has a human father, so we are susceptible to sin. It also teaches that the soul enters the zygote upon the moment of conception. And Christian doctrine teaches that all men are fallen and doomed, sin nature inherent in their very being.

SaintChaos

but just because a baby dies or is born with defects is not god's fault. they are born however they are born.

Revelation 1:17-18

“( 17 ) When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, ( 18 ) and the living one. I DIED, and BEHOLD I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE, and I HAVE THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES.”

(caps from the original text, not my emphasis)

God created disease. God controls life. God controls death.

What are your sources that tell you God can create disease, create life and control death but not be held responsible for any of it?

hmm....i was informed incorrectly then. because i know ive gotten on the subject of sin in infants before. i think what i should have reiterated was to say that, infants are probably not held accountable for their sins i guess until they actually make their first sin.

however i do know that "natural man" falls on his own and is ultimately doomed because they were made to be as such. so regardless of what we do, man can not save man.

but what verses tell you that god created disease? i know he is the controller of life and death however....looking at the times of great epidemics like ebola, the dark ages with the black plague.

disease well, that usually just spreads on its own without really the help of anyone. the disasters however that he willing admits to causing is natural disasters. verse stating to the affect of "does not a disaster that befalls a city is caused by me?" i can pull up the verses later if you wish.

but any suffering beyond that is caused by mankind himself. that is the suffering im referring to that can't be blamed on god.

ugh sorry for not going into further detail and not stating myself well enough. let me reiterate by saying, the natural disasters that befalls man is directly caused by god. however the regular day sufferings such as losing a job or getting caught while stealing, those types of sufferings are the fault of mankind himself, and not to be blamed on god.  

[ElenaMason]

Redem

SaintChaos

just because they get away with it on earth doesnt mean they wont get away with it later. the bible says we are ALL held accountable for our sins and the punishment for them is unknown. but no bad deed will go unnoticed. God will deal with it in his own way.

So, whether he exists or not, the result is the same.

What is the point of him, then?

Why worship him?

Why believe in him?

heh, let me answer your question with a question of my own.....why shouldnt i?

i have my own personal reasons for following and worshiping him, neither of which has physical evidence to show since it IS purely of faith and neither is good enough for anyone here to want to believe anyway. and if i were to give you reasons to follow him you wouldnt anyway because you dont believe in him right? so i leave the subject matter to just personal opinions and unstated.  

[ElenaMason]

ProjectOmicron88

SaintChaos

Theophrastus

What the ******** does an infant who dies at two weeks old "have to learn" from being born with mortal congenital defects? Did she have sinful thoughts in the womb? Otherwise, why would God curse her so? For the actions of her parents? She's not old enough to profess a sincere belief in Jesus Christ since she doesn't even know what a word or a book is. Obviously she's doomed to hell.

I really can't believe the things you back up.

infants who die at birth or die before they are born are already judged by God. and sin does not exist in an infant until they have knowledge of what it is. babies are just about the only creature on earth, other than animals, that are deemed innocent.

however if they were to live and had not died for whatever circumstance, god still knows their past present and future. he knows their actions before they're even thought of in the mind.

thus they're judged accordingly. dont confuse this as the idea that all babies go to hell. that isnt true.

but just because a baby dies or is born with defects is not god's fault. they are born however they are born.

There's a such thing as natural sin in Christian mythology. This is why babies are baptized.

yeah i know. i also like to call it "natural man", at least those who are not chosen. but baptism.....baptizing babies is a catholic practice. i dont know the full teachings and understandings to why they do such a thing to a creature that can't even speak let alone understand whats going on around it. i personally dont believe in baptising babies. i also dont believe that baptizing one self will get you to heaven. completely false. our sins were already cleansed as well when Jesus died on the cross back in his time. i havent studied that heavily on baptism though, but ive gotten on the subject matter before. and its more of a symbolic practice than anything else in my opinion.  

[ElenaMason]

Semper Fiasco

SaintChaos

Theophrastus

Child prostitution, rape, AIDS - these things are indefensible.

So if God made all people and all things and has, by his Divine Plan (TM) allowed them to happen then he is responsible. The reason theists have to hide behind "we can't understand God's will" is the same reason nobody has ever replied to the Riddle of Epicurus; because there is no answer but that there is no God.

don't blame the guilt of mankind and his actions on god. this is my take on the whole "allowing it to happen" theory.

Without suffering in the world what the hell would we learn? If a child is to
ENOUGH to marry and MATE with a person like that and bare a son only to have the son be yet another victim.

In this example its not the boy's fault but the fault of the mother and father for his suffering. Not God's. And the example I gave is actually true of someone I know because they were ranting to me as to why they hated God etc etc.

Religiously speaking in christian logic, just because you THINK you need or want something now doesn't mean you're going to get it. Sometimes what we think is best for us isn't best at all for that particular place and time. In regards to praying and asking things from God, thats how that kicks in. God can see past present and future. Time is unlimited to him and he can see as far into the future as he wants. Regarding his plan individually for each of us, he knows the choices we would make and the consequences of that choice good or bad. So just because we want something, doesn't mean it might be the best thing for us.

So if I pray for like a million bucks right now, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be getting it any time soon or probably ever. I could also pray for the ability to fly like a bird, but that probably isn't going to happen for whatever reasons.

Its not as plain as simple as people make it out to be when it comes to God allowing suffering in the world.

Suffering helps us grow and makes us stronger for harder times to come, because guess what buddy, there is always going to be some type of suffering so get used to it. But the most important thing we learn from any suffering in general is the knowledge and experience we gain and the lesson we learn from that suffering. Sometimes the lesson to be learned isn't learned for many years. Sometimes we gain the knowledge right away. It all depends. In short, I'd rather suffer, then to be completely ignorant.

Erm... mmhmm.

The whole "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger" view. You'd probably like Nietzsche. Pretty spiffy guy. Didn't believe in God, though.

First of all, I rather like the way you ended up contradicting yourself by first claiming that suffering is humanity's fault and later assigning it a divine purpose, thus implying that God does have something to do with it. Bravo.

But on to the point at hand. Imagine God sitting in his little cloud-palace (or whatever God decides to sit in these days), watching a two-story house - containing three children of two parents tearfully watching outside - burn to the ground. The parents zealously ask God to step in and save their children. Here's God's response:

"Psh. You expect me to jump in every time something like this happens? Relax; everything's fine. Besides, I'm teaching you a lesson. Can't have everything you want in life, can you? Tsk tsk tsk... when will you people realize that stuff like this happens all the time? Just get over it and move on."

By this logic, we should be praising arsonists, murderers, child rapists, and the like. Why? Because they're helping people grow. You know: teaching them a lesson about the real world. I'm starting to believe that director James Wan had a point when he conceived the character of Jigsaw. Of course, Jigsaw didn't exactly have God-powers, either.

If the only way an omnipotent, omniscient, loving god could possibly teach and strengthen us is by making us suffer, then what kind of god is he? Any being with "omni" powers should surely be capable of finding a better way than that to go about things. Unless God just can't seem to find the Prozac.

Besides, if you claim that god is not responsible for suffering, then answer me this: is your god responsible for goodness? Better yet: does he even interfere with the world at all? If so, then you're probably more of a deist than a Christian.

Apologies if I sound a bit harsh and persecute-y. People tell me that all the time, but I just don't see it.

lol i didn't contradict myself, just how you look at it. suffering, at least things that arent of natural disasters, are not caused by god. it depends on what type of sufferings you define as well. and now i think im just getting too technical for my own good. i do believe god has a role in things, i mean he DOES see past present and future, but even if he knows our choices and the consequences of those choices, he still gave us a will, limited at best, but still there for us to make our decisions as we please. and i think i lost where i was going with this....

i dont know. i just very much dislike fellow Christians who like to play the blame game and just blame everything on god, when in reality its either their own fault or the consequences of the actions of those around them. our paths cross the paths or others so naturally their suffering would cross with ours.

as far as the example with the burning house you gave, you make it sound like god is malicious which is not of his nature. id also like the quote the famous cliche, "there is a place for everything, and everything in its place." everything happens for a reason even if its devastating. all i have to do is look at my life and see the examples. but this is a personal belief. you most likely will not agree with me. But meh *shrugs* personal opinion.

but god doenst only teach us by the ways of suffering by allowing things to happen. we learn other ways too, especially through times of peace and happiness. not all of life is suffering, just that suffering is inevitable.

he does and doesn't interfere. that is what i believe. and if im contradicting myself again i do apologise. i have a habit of doing that and im not always good with words ^^; so i hope what i say makes at least some sense.

Quote:

Apologies if I sound a bit harsh and persecute-y. People tell me that all the time, but I just don't see it.

nah you're good. you are entitled to your opinion after all smile but thanks for being considerate.  

[Redem]

SaintChaos

Redem

SaintChaos

just because they get away with it on earth doesnt mean they wont get away with it later. the bible says we are ALL held accountable for our sins and the punishment for them is unknown. but no bad deed will go unnoticed. God will deal with it in his own way.

So, whether he exists or not, the result is the same.

What is the point of him, then?

Why worship him?

Why believe in him?

heh, let me answer your question with a question of my own.....why shouldnt i?

i have my own personal reasons for following and worshiping him, neither of which has physical evidence to show since it IS purely of faith and neither is good enough for anyone here to want to believe anyway. and if i were to give you reasons to follow him you wouldnt anyway because you dont believe in him right? so i leave the subject matter to just personal opinions and unstated.

Because it is seemingly pointless to do so.

If the results of god existing and not existing are the same, then god is entirely superfluous. Especially as an explanation for something.  

[ProjectOmicron88]

The whole "suffering as a result of providence" thing does not say "character-building" to me. It's more along the lines of "sadism".

I was clinically depressed at one point in my life (high school), and couldn't wait to graduate. My school career was fraught with people who got off by putting other people down, and not just me, either. It's a public high school, white suburban town, you know the type. It wasn't because I was a geek (though I was, as were my friends), it was because I was born with Asperger's Syndrome, and there were people who loved to see how far they could push me. I've done things in response I'm not proud of. My point, however, is this. For being born with something that is ultimately both a gift and a curse, and for being so emotionally distraught towards the end of my high school career, to the point of contemplating suicide more than once, why would a loving God not make things easy? It was that reasoning that led me to believe that there's no such thing as an omniscient being (this was long before I discovered Epicurus' riddle). With two middle fingers extended towards the heavens, I tried again, and slogged through my senior year to college, where it's been smooth sailing ever since. I've made new friends, rebuilt old ones, and kept in touch with people dear to me.

High school didn't kill me, but it did make me stronger. I credit providence with nothing in that department. I gave most of the credit to my parents (ESPECIALLY my parents), my brother, and my friends. True love for someone is not making them suffer to see them grow stronger. True love for someone is, when they are suffering, helping them out in their time of need.  

[Six Billion of Spades]

SaintChaos

Semper Fiasco

SaintChaos

Theophrastus

Child prostitution, rape, AIDS - these things are indefensible.

So if God made all people and all things and has, by his Divine Plan (TM) allowed them to happen then he is responsible. The reason theists have to hide behind "we can't understand God's will" is the same reason nobody has ever replied to the Riddle of Epicurus; because there is no answer but that there is no God.

don't blame the guilt of mankind and his actions on god. this is my take on the whole "allowing it to happen" theory.

Without suffering in the world what the hell would we learn? If a child is to
ENOUGH to marry and MATE with a person like that and bare a son only to have the son be yet another victim.

In this example its not the boy's fault but the fault of the mother and father for his suffering. Not God's. And the example I gave is actually true of someone I know because they were ranting to me as to why they hated God etc etc.

Religiously speaking in christian logic, just because you THINK you need or want something now doesn't mean you're going to get it. Sometimes what we think is best for us isn't best at all for that particular place and time. In regards to praying and asking things from God, thats how that kicks in. God can see past present and future. Time is unlimited to him and he can see as far into the future as he wants. Regarding his plan individually for each of us, he knows the choices we would make and the consequences of that choice good or bad. So just because we want something, doesn't mean it might be the best thing for us.

So if I pray for like a million bucks right now, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be getting it any time soon or probably ever. I could also pray for the ability to fly like a bird, but that probably isn't going to happen for whatever reasons.

Its not as plain as simple as people make it out to be when it comes to God allowing suffering in the world.

Suffering helps us grow and makes us stronger for harder times to come, because guess what buddy, there is always going to be some type of suffering so get used to it. But the most important thing we learn from any suffering in general is the knowledge and experience we gain and the lesson we learn from that suffering. Sometimes the lesson to be learned isn't learned for many years. Sometimes we gain the knowledge right away. It all depends. In short, I'd rather suffer, then to be completely ignorant.

Erm... mmhmm.

The whole "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger" view. You'd probably like Nietzsche. Pretty spiffy guy. Didn't believe in God, though.

First of all, I rather like the way you ended up contradicting yourself by first claiming that suffering is humanity's fault and later assigning it a divine purpose, thus implying that God does have something to do with it. Bravo.

But on to the point at hand. Imagine God sitting in his little cloud-palace (or whatever God decides to sit in these days), watching a two-story house - containing three children of two parents tearfully watching outside - burn to the ground. The parents zealously ask God to step in and save their children. Here's God's response:

"Psh. You expect me to jump in every time something like this happens? Relax; everything's fine. Besides, I'm teaching you a lesson. Can't have everything you want in life, can you? Tsk tsk tsk... when will you people realize that stuff like this happens all the time? Just get over it and move on."

By this logic, we should be praising arsonists, murderers, child rapists, and the like. Why? Because they're helping people grow. You know: teaching them a lesson about the real world. I'm starting to believe that director James Wan had a point when he conceived the character of Jigsaw. Of course, Jigsaw didn't exactly have God-powers, either.

If the only way an omnipotent, omniscient, loving god could possibly teach and strengthen us is by making us suffer, then what kind of god is he? Any being with "omni" powers should surely be capable of finding a better way than that to go about things. Unless God just can't seem to find the Prozac.

Besides, if you claim that god is not responsible for suffering, then answer me this: is your god responsible for goodness? Better yet: does he even interfere with the world at all? If so, then you're probably more of a deist than a Christian.

Apologies if I sound a bit harsh and persecute-y. People tell me that all the time, but I just don't see it.

lol i didn't contradict myself, just how you look at it. suffering, at least things that arent of natural disasters, are not caused by god. it depends on what type of sufferings you define as well. and now i think im just getting too technical for my own good. i do believe god has a role in things, i mean he DOES see past present and future, but even if he knows our choices and the consequences of those choices, he still gave us a will, limited at best, but still there for us to make our decisions as we please. and i think i lost where i was going with this....

i dont know. i just very much dislike fellow Christians who like to play the blame game and just blame everything on god, when in reality its either their own fault or the consequences of the actions of those around them. our paths cross the paths or others so naturally their suffering would cross with ours.

as far as the example with the burning house you gave, you make it sound like god is malicious which is not of his nature. id also like the quote the famous cliche, "there is a place for everything, and everything in its place." everything happens for a reason even if its devastating. all i have to do is look at my life and see the examples. but this is a personal belief. you most likely will not agree with me. But meh *shrugs* personal opinion.

but god doenst only teach us by the ways of suffering by allowing things to happen. we learn other ways too, especially through times of peace and happiness. not all of life is suffering, just that suffering is inevitable.

he does and doesn't interfere. that is what i believe. and if im contradicting myself again i do apologise. i have a habit of doing that and im not always good with words ^^; so i hope what i say makes at least some sense.

Quote:

Apologies if I sound a bit harsh and persecute-y. People tell me that all the time, but I just don't see it.

nah you're good. you are entitled to your opinion after all smile but thanks for being considerate.

Mkay; just making sure. Don't want this turning into a shouting match. =]

But I have a real problem with the "everything happens for a reason" ideology. And my problem is this: if it's true, then every action must be good. Otherwise, God wouldn't have allowed the ones that only seem evil. If that's the case, then where exactly does the line between good and evil lie? I could use the excuse "everything happens for a reason" to justify burning down three houses, killing my neighbor's dog, and then baking a baby cacciatore. If I succeeded, then I would have known that it was my godly duty. How malicious could I possibly be?

And where is this "reason?" What reason could God possibly have to allow needless and extravagant suffering? If you say that there's a reason that will become available to us later, then you're starting from the assumption that there is a reason in the first place. How many court cases have been won by lawyers who instructed the jury to assume their clients' innocence - in spite of a vast plethora of evidence against him - until vindicating evidence (which they claimed existed in the first place) could be found? None that I recall.

I'm not exactly sure I want to get into the entire free will theodicy, but I'll at least scratch the surface. Besides the fact that the free will argument doesn't explain travesties such as poverty and natural disasters, there's an even greater issue at hand: will doesn't imply ability. For example, I can will myself to read all of the books in a public library in five minutes, but I don't have the ability to do so. This doesn't make me a "robot," a buzz word some Christians (think Anne Graham Lotz) will use in reference to the free will theodicy. So why should an inability to stab a stranger in the eyes constitute a state of mindless automation?

All in all, I don't think any god that allows needless suffering can be rightfully considered "good." Unless an arsonist or a murderer can be vindicated on the grounds that there is some mysterious reason for everything, then I see no reason to make an exception for God.  

[ElenaMason]

Redem

SaintChaos

Redem

SaintChaos

just because they get away with it on earth doesnt mean they wont get away with it later. the bible says we are ALL held accountable for our sins and the punishment for them is unknown. but no bad deed will go unnoticed. God will deal with it in his own way.

So, whether he exists or not, the result is the same.

What is the point of him, then?

Why worship him?

Why believe in him?

heh, let me answer your question with a question of my own.....why shouldnt i?

i have my own personal reasons for following and worshiping him, neither of which has physical evidence to show since it IS purely of faith and neither is good enough for anyone here to want to believe anyway. and if i were to give you reasons to follow him you wouldnt anyway because you dont believe in him right? so i leave the subject matter to just personal opinions and unstated.

Because it is seemingly pointless to do so.

If the results of god existing and not existing are the same, then god is entirely superfluous. Especially as an explanation for something.

but thats the thing, the results are not the same. had it not been for god, the earth wouldn't even be existing right now. neither would the starts or universe itself. logically speaking no there is no proof of this, but that is what i believe. and there are many other reasons i worship my deity.  

[ElenaMason]

ProjectOmicron88

The whole "suffering as a result of providence" thing does not say "character-building" to me. It's more along the lines of "sadism".

I was clinically depressed at one point in my life (high school), and couldn't wait to graduate. My school career was fraught with people who got off by putting other people down, and not just me, either. It's a public high school, white suburban town, you know the type. It wasn't because I was a geek (though I was, as were my friends), it was because I was born with Asperger's Syndrome, and there were people who loved to see how far they could push me. I've done things in response I'm not proud of. My point, however, is this. For being born with something that is ultimately both a gift and a curse, and for being so emotionally distraught towards the end of my high school career, to the point of contemplating suicide more than once, why would a loving God not make things easy? It was that reasoning that led me to believe that there's no such thing as an omniscient being (this was long before I discovered Epicurus' riddle). With two middle fingers extended towards the heavens, I tried again, and slogged through my senior year to college, where it's been smooth sailing ever since. I've made new friends, rebuilt old ones, and kept in touch with people dear to me.

High school didn't kill me, but it did make me stronger. I credit providence with nothing in that department. I gave most of the credit to my parents (ESPECIALLY my parents), my brother, and my friends. True love for someone is not making them suffer to see them grow stronger. True love for someone is, when they are suffering, helping them out in their time of need.

i too have suffered such sadists pigs who call themselves middle schoolers, and ironically of all places i was treated horribly in a lutheran private school. and it was a small school, so any rumor that came about of me, got around real quick. my middle school years were torture to me and yet its not gods fault

you may have been born with a syndrome, but got is not responsible for the actions and cruelty that was decided by your peers. they CHOSE to do those things to you. and my peers just as easily chose to be the way they wanted towards me. it all has its effects on us, but i also noticed you said it was a curse, but you also said it was a gift.

the cruelty of others comes directly from their whim of choice. they are that way because they simply choose to be. sin is a burden and we are born with it, but it is just as much a choice of ours to do whatever sins tempt us the most.

could have god made it easy? yes.....but from personal opinion im glad he didn't. my suffering did not go in vain. years later i finally learned to stick up for myself. and also during that time i received years of blessings, starting with my first year of highschool. i gained friends for the very first time, and then we moved to california and every dream i could have dreamt was fulfilled in this state.

as the bible says, there is a time for war, but also there is a time for peace.

also sadism is an act of hurting someone for the pleasure of it. almost in a malicious manner, which is not god's nature. he does not take part of enjoying our suffering for he too suffered when he sent his son (or i should say a part of himself) to earth back in biblical times. he knows the sufferings we go through because he has endured it himself. he is not blind or deaf to our pleads. blessings will come in life when the time is right.  

[ElenaMason]

Semper Fiasco

But I have a real problem with the "everything happens for a reason" ideology. And my problem is this: if it's true, then every action must be good. Otherwise, God wouldn't have allowed the ones that only seem evil. If that's the case, then where exactly does the line between good and evil lie? I could use the excuse "everything happens for a reason" to justify burning down three houses, killing my neighbor's dog, and then baking a baby cacciatore. If I succeeded, then I would have known that it was my godly duty. How malicious could I possibly be?

first let me ask, what do you mean by every action must be good? could you possibly reiterate cuz i'm not sure what you meant by that.

also to refer to your examples, a house can burn down for many MANY reasons. maybe there was a gas leak, maybe they were careless and let something keep burning like a candle. or maybe someone played with a match. or maybe someone was careless and left airosal cans or flammable sprays in the garage on a very hot day and they exploded. happens on all the time. sometimes things just happen "just because". it might not even had a reason, cuz as i said, most sufferings of our own fault.

but everything happens for a reason, and that includes 1) our fault 2)some one elses fault or 3) gods intervention

Semper Fiasco

I'm not exactly sure I want to get into the entire free will theodicy, but I'll at least scratch the surface. Besides the fact that the free will argument doesn't explain travesties such as poverty and natural disasters, there's an even greater issue at hand: will doesn't imply ability. For example, I can will myself to read all of the books in a public library in five minutes, but I don't have the ability to do so. This doesn't make me a "robot," a buzz word some Christians (think Anne Graham Lotz) will use in reference to the free will theodicy. So why should an inability to stab a stranger in the eyes constitute a state of mindless automation?

i dont know if you saw me post in other threads about my ideas of free will, but i dont believe we have a free will. id like to call it, as ive said to others, that we have a "limited will". because not all choices are made by us. the obvious ones being:

1)choose to be created
2)choose to be born
3)choose to be born with what we look like

etc etc.....simple examples.

Quote:

All in all, I don't think any god that allows needless suffering can be rightfully considered "good." Unless an arsonist or a murderer can be vindicated on the grounds that there is some mysterious reason for everything, then I see no reason to make an exception for God.

you know, you could look at yourself and say the exact same thing. no offense but just using an example. we can sit and complain for why god didnt step in for such and such event, but just look at us, debating over the net while people are starving in Africa. however we can make a difference with "one random act of kindness at a time". people sometimes look to god to do everything but in reality we have the power to do it ourselves if we but get off our asses and do something instead of expecting god to do everything.

like i said, life isnt easy but it pays off with the effort and the experiences we gain from those efforts. what im saying in short is, god SHOULDNT have to step in.

to use the holocaust as an example, and no im not using this as a means to press any buttons. but this is how i look at it. that entire event could have been prevented had not the individual choices of every single person decided not to follow hitler. in fact hitler is but one man, all he did was chat up a storm and the people that made everything happen was the people that CHOSE to follow his lead. had it not been for THEIR actions, the suffering would not have taken place.

everyone makes a choice, and those choices effect everyone around them. hitler was at fault, but so was everyone else.

let me see if i can summarize the entire point im trying to make here cuz i think im babbling again lol.

i guess it just boils down to these things:

suffering isnt 100% god's fault. we don't have a "free" will but we still have a will to make a choice. and most of those choices have a negative affect on those around us. the holocaust being a prime example for the choices of those people. they were desperate but they did indeed make a poor decision to follow such a tyrant. suffering can be for the growth of us and to gain experiences we may need later in life to survive.

all in all, everything has a purpose.  

[Redem]

SaintChaos

Redem

SaintChaos

Redem

SaintChaos

just because they get away with it on earth doesnt mean they wont get away with it later. the bible says we are ALL held accountable for our sins and the punishment for them is unknown. but no bad deed will go unnoticed. God will deal with it in his own way.

So, whether he exists or not, the result is the same.

What is the point of him, then?

Why worship him?

Why believe in him?

heh, let me answer your question with a question of my own.....why shouldnt i?

i have my own personal reasons for following and worshiping him, neither of which has physical evidence to show since it IS purely of faith and neither is good enough for anyone here to want to believe anyway. and if i were to give you reasons to follow him you wouldnt anyway because you dont believe in him right? so i leave the subject matter to just personal opinions and unstated.

Because it is seemingly pointless to do so.

If the results of god existing and not existing are the same, then god is entirely superfluous. Especially as an explanation for something.

but thats the thing, the results are not the same. had it not been for god, the earth wouldn't even be existing right now. neither would the starts or universe itself. logically speaking no there is no proof of this, but that is what i believe. and there are many other reasons i worship my deity.

As do the adherents of all other religions, there has not been demonstrated a need for a deity in any of that.
Even should that part be true, the rest is still unneeded. Heaven, hell, a personal deity, prayer, worship, churches, the anachronistic "morals" of the bible, the idea of religious leaders... what is the need for any of these, even if we assume that there was a creator?
And what makes your religion any different to all of the rest of them? Especially if you are one of those who follow christian mythology along with the rest of the religion.  

[Six Billion of Spades]

SaintChaos

Semper Fiasco

But I have a real problem with the "everything happens for a reason" ideology. And my problem is this: if it's true, then every action must be good. Otherwise, God wouldn't have allowed the ones that only seem evil. If that's the case, then where exactly does the line between good and evil lie? I could use the excuse "everything happens for a reason" to justify burning down three houses, killing my neighbor's dog, and then baking a baby cacciatore. If I succeeded, then I would have known that it was my godly duty. How malicious could I possibly be?

first let me ask, what do you mean by every action must be good? could you possibly reiterate cuz i'm not sure what you meant by that.

What I meant to say is that if your "everything happens for a reason" argument is correct, then everything that only seems evil is happening for a greater good. Of course, this means that morality is out the window, because even when we're out doing "evil" things, we're fulfilling that greater good.

SaintChaos

also to refer to your examples, a house can burn down for many MANY reasons. maybe there was a gas leak, maybe they were careless and let something keep burning like a candle. or maybe someone played with a match. or maybe someone was careless and left airosal cans or flammable sprays in the garage on a very hot day and they exploded. happens on all the time. sometimes things just happen "just because". it might not even had a reason, cuz as i said, most sufferings of our own fault.

but everything happens for a reason, and that includes 1) our fault 2)some one elses fault or 3) gods intervention

Great. So how does one go about deciding on the reason? Or is it completely up to the Christians to figure out what's part of God's will and what isn't?

SaintChaos

Semper Fiasco

I'm not exactly sure I want to get into the entire free will theodicy, but I'll at least scratch the surface. Besides the fact that the free will argument doesn't explain travesties such as poverty and natural disasters, there's an even greater issue at hand: will doesn't imply ability. For example, I can will myself to read all of the books in a public library in five minutes, but I don't have the ability to do so. This doesn't make me a "robot," a buzz word some Christians (think Anne Graham Lotz) will use in reference to the free will theodicy. So why should an inability to stab a stranger in the eyes constitute a state of mindless automation?

i dont know if you saw me post in other threads about my ideas of free will, but i dont believe we have a free will. id like to call it, as ive said to others, that we have a "limited will". because not all choices are made by us. the obvious ones being:

1)choose to be created
2)choose to be born
3)choose to be born with what we look like

etc etc.....simple examples.

I don't entirely believe in a complete free will either (as long as we have psychological factors and cultural bias to worry about), but the examples you gave have absolutely nothing to do with free will. The supporting structure and origins of the individual existence is inherently beyond the individual's control in any system, because they happen before we even have a will in the first place. To claim that you could possibly decide to be created is like claiming that you can remember what happened tomorrow. There's an inherent contradiction involved, and it's not hard to spot.

SaintChaos

Quote:

All in all, I don't think any god that allows needless suffering can be rightfully considered "good." Unless an arsonist or a murderer can be vindicated on the grounds that there is some mysterious reason for everything, then I see no reason to make an exception for God.

you know, you could look at yourself and say the exact same thing. no offense but just using an example. we can sit and complain for why god didnt step in for such and such event, but just look at us, debating over the net while people are starving in Africa. however we can make a difference with "one random act of kindness at a time". people sometimes look to god to do everything but in reality we have the power to do it ourselves if we but get off our asses and do something instead of expecting god to do everything.

I completely agree with the wording of this statement, but not the spirit. Actually, it's one of the thoughts that led me to atheism.

But I feel that what you're really saying rests more along the assumption that God uses suffering to build our moral responsibility. If that's not what you meant, then please tell me before we get off on the wrong tangent, but for now, I'll argue that point.

If suffering is indeed God's way of improving our moral responsibility, then consider this situation. Imagine that we lived in a world in which people in Africa were not starving as they are today. Now suppose that the mortality rate in Africa is not high enough to constitute a great sense of moral responsibility in other regions of the world. Would God be morally justified in taking away their food resource? Or maybe killing Africans outright? Who knows; it could be happening right now, because you can never tell how high the MRR (Moral Responsibility Rate) is at any given time.

Doesn't that sound silly? Of course it does. If someone sees a chance to create moral responsibility, they probably shouldn't do so. Case in point: hospitals and fire stations. [sarcasm]Can't expect 'em to step in all the time, can we?[/sarcasm]

SaintChaos

like i said, life isnt easy but it pays off with the effort and the experiences we gain from those efforts. what im saying in short is, god SHOULDNT have to step in.

See my above statement about hospitals, fire stations, and basically anything helpful to humanity.

SaintChaos

to use the holocaust as an example, and no im not using this as a means to press any buttons. but this is how i look at it. that entire event could have been prevented had not the individual choices of every single person decided not to follow hitler. in fact hitler is but one man, all he did was chat up a storm and the people that made everything happen was the people that CHOSE to follow his lead. had it not been for THEIR actions, the suffering would not have taken place.

everyone makes a choice, and those choices effect everyone around them. hitler was at fault, but so was everyone else.

Okay. And what at all does this have to do with God?

SaintChaos

let me see if i can summarize the entire point im trying to make here cuz i think im babbling again lol.

i guess it just boils down to these things:

suffering isnt 100% god's fault. we don't have a "free" will but we still have a will to make a choice. and most of those choices have a negative affect on those around us. the holocaust being a prime example for the choices of those people. they were desperate but they did indeed make a poor decision to follow such a tyrant. suffering can be for the growth of us and to gain experiences we may need later in life to survive.

all in all, everything has a purpose.

True. But why so much suffering? Why do some people endure more pain and hardship than others? Do they somehow require more "experience" and "growth" than the rest of us? Some unfortunate souls go through much more than should be required to build a little character. For example, what could a burning baby have to learn from being utterly immolated? What of the children in Cambodia who go unexpectedly frolicking through mine fields? Or the Jews involved in the Holocaust, as you mentioned?

As for my "all in all"... if any being with the power to lessen the amount of suffering in the world decides instead to keep it to himself, then we cannot reasonably call that being "good." If you're correct, and there is a divine purpose for everything, then we exist merely to fulfill the sadistic desires of a celestial Orwell.

Besides, I'm not one to pretend that my purpose can be decided for me. To suggest that humanity should live according to a predetermined purpose is no less dehumanizing than suggesting that we all abandon our wills and become machines - lifeless automatons maintained to accomplish a certain goal - without quarrel or question.

If there's any purpose to life at all, it's simply to keep moving on without being distracted by those who want to sell you their purpose. Just live - and don't die.

Somehow, that's all I need.