Circumcision

[Laprasite]

JakRandom

Is my pretension annoying you? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get all irritated when people started making claims about how my entire family is backwards and barbaric. Also, let me thank you for letting me know that I have a fake p***s, here I was thinking I'd only had the foreskin removed. The more you know, right?

Being circumcised is a part of my cultural identity. The value I place on it far out ways the very minuscule risks involved in having the procedure done. Not everyone agrees with this point of view, thats fine, I can deal with that. However, making such blatantly ignorant claims like 'it has no medical purpose' or claiming that is comparable to female genital mutilation is just down right wrong.

I apologize for comparing it to that, I realize that they are two very different things done for different reasons. That was an error on my part.

My main objection to circumcision is that it is something that is not vital being performed on someone who has no choice. If one personally makes the choice later on in life to have it done, I'm fine with that. I have no objection because they've had the option to make the decision on their own. I think I forgot to mention that my objection is not against all circumcision, just on infants. If an adult chooses to do it, they should have that option.  

[JakRandom]

I understand and, to some extent, agree with your point of view. A circumcision can be gruesome and uncomfortable and the thought of preforming it on infants can make anyone sqeemish. The reason I don't see it that way is I have an insiders perspective and can say that the experience of growing up circumcised is unique from having it done later in life. I wish I could explain it better, but the two just aren't comparable.  

[Laprasite]

JakRandom

I understand and, to some extent, agree with you point of view. A circumcision can be a gruesome and uncomfortable and the thought of preforming it on infants can make anyone sqeemish. The reason I don't see it that way is I have an insiders perspective and can say that the experience of growing up circumcised is unique from having it done later in life. I wish I could explain it better, but the two just aren't comparable.

I'd like to know more about your perspective on it. Most of the people for circumcision that I've had the opportunity to talk to have been girls my age, and their main reasoning behind it was literally "I don't know, foreskins just look gross." It's really disappointing because I'd like to see both sides and I can tell you have more to add to it than they did.  

[Fuzzy Kittens]

Someone briefly mentioned the health benefits of circumcision. Aside from helping to prevent HIV...

Quote:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (FamilyDoctor.org) states that circumcision can help to prevent urinary tract infection in infants, and according to Richard M. Parker (PedsUroLogic.com), intact foreskins can lead to phimosis, a condition in which the foreskin narrows and cannot retract, or balanoposthitis, an infection of the glands and foreskin. The American Urological Association supports both these claims in a 2003 statement. "

Also, to whoever stated that circumcision cuts back on sexual arousal:

Quote:

"...A 1997 study by Edward O. Laumann (published in the Journal of the American Medical Association), shows that circumcised males have a higher degree of sexual satisfaction and a lower rate of sexual dysfunction than uncircumcised males; in particular, the rate of inability to maintain an erection is significantly lower in circumcised men."

Here's the article, if anyone cares. To be fair, there was "pro-foreskin" article published along with it, but it doesn't really say anything that wasn't already stated in this thread. Except for...pleasuring a woman...without ribbed condoms. I did not know that.

LOL TEH MOAR U NO.  

[ElenaMason]

lol no offense but im so glad im not a guy due to stuff like this xP  

[JakRandom]

What, the sleek, streamlined look isn't enough justification in and of itself?

To me the circumcision is a permanent reminder of where I came from. As I've grown older my body has changed, my faith has changed, the way I live, its all changed. However, to me the circumcision, the permanent alteration of my body, the same as my farther and grandfather had, is an unfaltering reminder of my heritage.  

[Laprasite]

ZeeFishee

Someone briefly mentioned the health benefits of circumcision. Aside from helping to prevent HIV...

Quote:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (FamilyDoctor.org) states that circumcision can help to prevent urinary tract infection in infants, and according to Richard M. Parker (PedsUroLogic.com), intact foreskins can lead to phimosis, a condition in which the foreskin narrows and cannot retract, or balanoposthitis, an infection of the glands and foreskin. The American Urological Association supports both these claims in a 2003 statement. "

Also, to whoever stated that circumcision cuts back on sexual arousal:

Quote:

"...A 1997 study by Edward O. Laumann (published in the Journal of the American Medical Association), shows that circumcised males have a higher degree of sexual satisfaction and a lower rate of sexual dysfunction than uncircumcised males; in particular, the rate of inability to maintain an erection is significantly lower in circumcised men."

Here's the article, if anyone cares. To be fair, there was "pro-foreskin" article published along with it, but it doesn't really say anything that wasn't already stated in this thread. Except for...pleasuring a woman...without ribbed condoms. I did not know that.

LOL TEH MOAR U NO.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Clean.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/Functions.html

I'm not quite sure where to quote from those so I'm giving you the whole pages.

As for sleek and streamlined, my best friend is uncircumcised and when he has an erection there's really not much of a difference in the way his p***s looks compared to a circumcised one because the foreskin pulls back naturally. You can see it and tell it's there but it's not a huge difference.

EDIT: Yes, we're close. But that's not my point here. xD  

[JakRandom]

Hey, nothing personal, but I think you main source speaks for its self in thier policy statement. I wouldn't use this as your only source of information regarding circumcision.

"This site does not pretend to be "balanced". The case for circumcision has been made daily for decades in public media such as TV sitcoms, magazine articles, by medical "authorities" and by word of mo N, thanks to the Internet, the opposition has a chance to be heard uninterrupted. This site does attempt to tell the truth about circumcision, and not overstate the case against it.

There are some pictures of penises on this site, including erect ones and also a few babies' ones, where necessary for their purpose. They are preceded by warnings.

This site does not claim to offer medical advice, etc. etc."  

[Laprasite]

JakRandom

Hey, nothing personal, but I think you main source speaks for its self in thier policy statement. I wouldn't use this as your only source of information regarding circumcision.

"This site does not pretend to be "balanced". The case for circumcision has been made daily for decades in public media such as TV sitcoms, magazine articles, by medical "authorities" and by word of mo N, thanks to the Internet, the opposition has a chance to be heard uninterrupted. This site does attempt to tell the truth about circumcision, and not overstate the case against it.

There are some pictures of penises on this site, including erect ones and also a few babies' ones, where necessary for their purpose. They are preceded by warnings.

This site does not claim to offer medical advice, etc. etc."

I haven't had a lot of opportunity to gather sources on this. This was for my own information, and I had it in my favorites before this topic even popped up. I just decided to put it to use. But I am aware of the policy statement. I acknowledge I could go find a more balanced source.  

[Baron von Turkeypants]

So no one's bothered to mention why evolution hasn't made us precircumcized?  

[Redem]

There are no significant medical benefits to circumcision. Certainly none that outweight the medical risks that accompany the surgery, and almost all of them are only significant LONG after the child is old enough to decide for themselves.

Tell me, how does a 50% cut in HIV infection rates (although that study has some major procedural issues and is not in the least conclusive) mean that you should subject newborn boys to painful and damaging surgeries?

The foreskin is there to keep the glans supple, moist, and clean. Ripping it off at birth is just stupid.

Someone mentioned we should understand why it is done... well the reason it is now popular in the US is because it was promoted as a way to prevent children from masturbating in their teens.

As a Jewish/Muslim cultural practice, it was meant to be a sacrifice to establish a covenant with god, if I recall correctly.

Quote:

"The American Academy of Pediatrics (FamilyDoctor.org) states that circumcision can help to prevent urinary tract infection in infants, and according to Richard M. Parker (PedsUroLogic.com), intact foreskins can lead to phimosis, a condition in which the foreskin narrows and cannot retract, or balanoposthitis, an infection of the glands and foreskin. The American Urological Association supports both these claims in a 2003 statement. "

Quote mining.
While it is true, removal of the foreskin also causes various problems. From keratinisation of the glans, blood infections from the surgery, to skin bridges, to major scarring and painful erections.
The official position of the AAP is as follows.

Quote:

The American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) found both potential benefits and risks in infant circumcision. It felt that there was insufficient data to recommend routine neonatal circumcision, and recommended that parental decisions on circumcision should be made with as much accurate and unbiased information as possible, taking medical, cultural, ethnic, traditional, and religious factors into account. The AAP also recommended using analgesia as a safe and effective method for reducing pain associated with circumcision, and that circumcision on newborns only be performed on infants who are stable and healthy.[159]

Quote:

What, the sleek, streamlined look isn't enough justification in and of itself?

The dried up scarred mutilated look, you mean? No. Not justification enough. :p

Quote:

Also, to whoever stated that circumcision cuts back on sexual arousal:

It scars the glans, and removes some of the most sensitive areas fo the p***s. So yeah, it does.  

[Fuzzy Kittens]

Quote:

Quote mining.

Uh, no. Quote mining means misquoting a source (or multiple sources) in order to amplify your argument. If you'd read through the article, you'll find that I did not use those quotes out of context.

Quote:

While it is true, removal of the foreskin also causes various problems. From keratinisation of the glans, blood infections from the surgery, to skin bridges, to major scarring and painful erections.
The official position of the AAP is as follows.

Quote:

The American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) found both potential benefits and risks in infant circumcision. It felt that there was insufficient data to recommend routine neonatal circumcision, and recommended that parental decisions on circumcision should be made with as much accurate and unbiased information as possible, taking medical, cultural, ethnic, traditional, and religious factors into account. The AAP also recommended using analgesia as a safe and effective method for reducing pain associated with circumcision, and that circumcision on newborns only be performed on infants who are stable and healthy.[159]

So basically, they're saying that there are pluses and minuses to circumcision and that the decision to circumcise an infant should be left up to the parent.

...I fail to see how that corners me into misquoting the AAP, seeing how in my quote, the organization recognized that circumcision does have some advantages, and in your quote, they state that they found "potential benefits" in circumcision as well.

I also fail to see how this supports the pro-foreskin argument.

SpasticKitten

http://www.circumstitions.com/Clean.html

http://www.circumstitions.com/Functions.html

I'm not quite sure where to quote from those so I'm giving you the whole pages.

That's a smart move, seeing how you might be accused of quote mining.

Phimosis and balanoposthitis are not usually a result of bad hygiene, so I don't know where you were going with that first link.

As for the second link, I admittedly don't have a rebuttal. I have a link to an article detailing Laumann's study of circumcision and sexual practices, but it's over ten years old.  

[Baron von Turkeypants]

Soy un hombre muy honrado,
que me gusta lo mejor

Was this posted already? http://www.circumstitions.com/reasonsnotto.html

It freaked my s**t out.

Las mujeres no me faltan,
ni el dinero ni el amor

 

[ProjectOmicron88]

First of all, a 50% reduction in the chance of getting HIV or AIDS is not enough reason for me to condone lopping off the tip of someone's member. Second, this can be avoided by not sleeping around, and using protection, which essentially negates that "benefit".  

[Baron von Turkeypants]

ProjectOmicron88

First of all, a 50% reduction in the chance of getting HIV or AIDS is not enough reason for me to condone lopping off the tip of someone's member. Second, this can be avoided by not sleeping around, and using protection, which essentially negates that "benefit".

Soy un hombre muy honrado,
que me gusta lo mejor

But why be responsible when you can be promiscuous out the a**?

Las mujeres no me faltan,
ni el dinero ni el amor