God exists; YOU are the deluded one

[MercurialInK]

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals :

Discussions on morality were taking in ancient civilizations long before Christianity became popular. In fact, they were happening before Jesus was even born. Judaism's beginnings preached that no human should dictate morality to another. However, at the same time in different parts of the world that were NOT touched by Judaism, different moral codes developed without reference to any religion we acknowledge as 'acceptable' today. If morality is a concept we can grasp without the aid of religion, then how can it be said that I have no morals simply because I do not embrace the idea of faith?

2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

Of course life has meaning! It's just not orchestrated and overseen by some divine being. My question in response would be: How is it that someone who believes that it is possible for a being to know the future say that life has meaning? I believe that life has as much meaning as you give it. Life your life with purpose, and it will have purpose.

3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

Really now?
So I guess that the bacteria we've discovered in the arctic in similar conditions to deep space don't count as life?

4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

Well, this is a bit of a tough one actually. In answer, I would ask this: if everything in the universe must have come from something, then where did this creator come from?
Working under the assumption that there is no god, however, it is possible that a series of chemical reactions resulted in the monolithic explosion that caused the rapid expansion of the universe that scientists observe even today.
As you can see, the former solution results in a circular hypocrisy. The latter, which I favor, is easily proved, backed up by science, neither of which are boasts that can be made by the first argument.

5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

I believe many truly want to do good, and they see religion as a way to do so. Others simply do not understand the fallacy of religion. And still others use religion as a way to exploit others and manipulate their fellow human beings.

6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

No. Merely sadly misinformed. We learn from our parents and our parents learned from their parents. Thus the false belief is passed down through generations, and it is almost impossible to break this cycle of indoctrination. If more people thought freely and were truly able to challenge every aspect of their lives intellectually, many would abandon religion as false.  

[dawnofthelight]

D i v i n i t y

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals

Wrong. Reason and emotion are places to get morals from. And if you don't know where else morals can come from, just look at the ethical theories - deontological, consequential, utilitarian. None of these summon God or gods as explanation. In fact, that would be very arbitrary. There also emotive-type theories of morality, and emotions are a normal part of humans. Plus, actions humans make are motivated by a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with theism.

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2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

How does having a cause give life meaning? Also, atheists do not necessarily say we don't have a cause, just that all causes presented are merely possibilities, or that God or gods as an explanation is insufficient and has no basis.

As an atheist, I believe the meaning of life is a subjective endeavor - and it is that endeavor that makes life meaningful.

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3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

No - human perception is fooling you. All of the claims you just made depends on human discoveries and human concepts - it is humans that paint life with order and delicacy through their explanations and concepts. The world is neither random or ordered, but neither in its essence outside of human experience - through human experience of the world, categorizing, conceptualizing, linguisticizing, the statements about the world are logically restrained and our language begins to interact wit hthe world to form knowledge. It is this activity that give life it's order, as it is this activity that makes the human perceive the world as his lenses allow them, i.e. order. So, what order really means is just the presence of human understanding or the linguistic categorization and relationships of the world.

No one "made it like that" - we simply understand it like that. Also, by saying all of it seems "designed" you are already presupposing the world has a designer - in order to describe the world as "designed" you must first prove that there was something which did that action to (i.e. designed) the universe.

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4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

This is completely misguided - yes, nothing can only come from nothing, and something cannot come from nothing. But something can also be there without having something outside of it or before it in place or time. This is a trick used by creationist to criticize some atheists, like me, in saying that the the universe has no cause: they say something cannot come from nothing. This is true, but I am not saying it can; what I am saying when I say the universe has no cause is that nothing exists outside of the universe, whether the universe is finite or not, and that nothing existed before it. When you say something cannot come from nothing, the "come from" implies that there is already an environment or a series of conditions in which that something had been situated in. If I were to say your hand came from the fish tank, that would be saying that your hand had been situated in a condition, in the case, which is the fish tank. I can't say your hand came from nothing, though, since "nothing" is a lack of condition.

So, in effect, when I say "the universe has no cause," I am not claiming that the universe had previously been situated in a condition or there was a previous condition that the universe "walked out off" and that that condition was "nothing" or "no cause." What I am saying is that anything that was before the universe, or the lack of anything before the universe (i.e. "nothing"), did not cause the universe, i.e. they did not act or were conditioned in a way so that the universe could arise. For more, go here.

Also, first you must prove something exists outside of the universe or existed before it before you claim the universe has a cause - it can't work the other way around.

Also, though, not all atheists believe the universe doesn't have a cause or disbelieve the universe has a cause. Some assert that the universe must have a cause (I disagree, since if something does not have anything existing outside of it or before it, how can it be assigned a cause? This is also logically possible, so not everything has to have a cause), but that that is no excuse to believe in baseless claims of what might have caused it.

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5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

A lot of people were wrong about the earth being flat - in fact, many people believe in their own religion, saying that they will go to hell if they do not follow God (and "following God" has different criteria in different religions). All these options make it unlikely they will result in going to hell for not following any one of them.

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6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

I am not calling them liars, because they do not necessarily say what is not true for the intent of deceiving - in fact, some do experience this, and I can accept these experiences as true and real - however, what I object to is claiming that these experiences are caused by some supernatural being and are actually what they claim they are.

I can experience a demon hitting me on the back of the head, and it is true that I experienced it and the experience was real, but that does not mean that I should claim that the experience was of real demons.

The experience can be true and real while what it contains and the descriptions of them need not be.  

[Alloflifedecays]

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1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals

We get our morals out of human kindness. Morality is a part of the human condition, and is hard-wired into us. And I find it terrifying that apparently most religious people have only religion stopping them becoming rapist murderers.

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2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

Life has whatever meaning you give it. No given destiny doesn't stop you giving your own life a purpose and a meaning.

And why precisely is meaning important?

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3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

Actually, the sheer number of planets makes it improbable that life WOULDN'T have formed. That it was on the planet we call earth is a coincidence.

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4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

I don't know, nor do I pretend to know. That's why I love science; it teaches us to want to find out, not just make up some arbitrary reason based on a hugely limited knowledge of the world. Give me the same evidence that God did it that you would expect from me for another hypothesis and I will fold.

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5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

Yes.

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6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

No, I'm calling them delusional. The Placebo effect is very powerful; it can have those effects on some people.  

[55may55]

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals

Just because a person doesn't believe in a higher deity, doesn't mean that morals don't exist. People in general follow a social order and those themselves could be considered morals. For example, it is a commonly held belief that people should not go around killing one another. I do not need a God to tell me not to kill someone, I'm just not going to do it. And even if you are thinks, Oh, but what about war and murder and such. I have one word for you: Crusades.

2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

That's ridiculous. For one thing people who believe in a God have a billion cases of "crisis of faith" all the time so they are not even always in a state of "my life has purpose." Also, I believe that meaning in one's life is something you create for yourself. I personally really love doing art, baking, learning, writing, doing science, etc. and for me those things give my life meaning, and I think as long as I feel that all that is enough to make my life meaningful then that is all I need.

3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

It's called natural selection. Of course things would have to adapt in this perfectly designed way in nature or else nothing would be able to survive.

4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

As far as where did it all come from? We just don't know yet, and maybe we'll never know, but either way it wasn't like we always knew about gravity and things like that and yet as soon as we did understand those things on a scientific level all of the surrounding metaphysical "explanation" seemed to disappear.

5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

I think they all need something like God to believe in for whatever reason, and I think that is fine. However, I think the trouble starts with religions when it starts effecting people against their will. For example, growing up believing in God because your parents do. Or living in a culture that forces you to abide by the religious doctrine. Religion is not a government and should not act like one.

6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

I'm calling them crazy.  

[B1g_crunch]

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals

-Atheists have morals and they get them through experiencing life.-

2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

-Life is meaningless when we first are born. We have to give life meaning as we live it.-

3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

-Alright, if someone made the universe, then who made this being who made the universe. Your arguement that god could just appear out of nowhere can also apply to the big bang and development of the universe.-

4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

-Again, you're forgetting that your "god" would also come from nothing, being nothing itself. The big bang dispersed the universe from its compressed state with an explosion of infinate temperature.-

5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

-I believe these people went to god to bring themselves comfort in situations they couldn't cope with. In ancient times, I believe people went to a god because they couldn't explain how the world and universe worked.-

6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

-Actually, only some I believe are liars (EX:Benny Hinn)

The others might be experiencing hallucinations while the thought of "god" has recently been seen or heard.-  

[Nardone]

1) atheist people arent immoral.. just because we dont believe in the stuff you try to force feed us doesnt make us immoral.. whats immoral is that you try to control lives and manipulate people.. if you believe otherwise.. im saying your wrong.

2) We dont believe in a meaningless existence.. If anything we believe in not ******** up your life and making the most outta it.. because once your gone.. your gone.. if you believe otherwise.. im saying your wrong.

3) The universe was coincidentally place like that. if you believe otherwise.. im saying your wrong.

4) Something was always there.. something was always going to turn into something better.. NO IM NOT TALKING ABOUT GOD YOU MORON.. I is talking about the universe :3

5)Most people in the world aren't smart.. most people are vulnerable..
Anyone who would actually sit and think about religion for a good hour or so would realize its all wrong..

6) Ummmm... most of those people end up to be very violent.. and sometimes murderous.. theres special hospitals for those nowadays..
And yes i am calling them liers..  

[EATSMEATS]

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals
I have morals. I still think there are things you shouldn't do because I would not like people to do them to me. A quote from Boondock Saints sums it up perfectly. "Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal, these are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. " "These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost. " (Great movie btw)

2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause
Like all species our focus is to reproduce and keep the species alive. Survival of yourself and survival of your kind is the most important. And since we have an entire life to do that, you might as well spend the rest of the time enjoying yourself.

3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that.
Ok, instead of the mentality that our earth, environment, and organisms were all just poof and created ... how about... only the strong survive. We evolved to become what we are and the earth became how it is through many different chemical reactions and drastic changes that a planet normally goes through.

4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?
I can't answer this question. Nobody can.

5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?
Yes. The possibility of a god or ultimate creator is possible, but it doesn't make any rational sense how it would work.

6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?
No. In a sense they probably do "hear the word of god" and "feel his presence" The bible gives people a feeling that helps them and supports them, thats what I think is what they're feeling. And hearing god to them is our equivalent of a conscience. Their brain is probably telling them "God's will".  

[Colm-kun]

1- Bullshit to be said plainly. If your PARENT'S aren't teaching your morals when you are young, they shouldn't be parents.

2- Nope, I'm pretty sure that's just me. But either way it's rather air-headed and silly to think mankind has a grand destiny whether it's just to die in full circle or whatever. Since there is according to the Bible, no life outside the planet, what kind of purpose would we have?

3- Out of the infinite number of other planets, consider us lucky. And people freeze and dehydrate to death all the time.

4- Well that contradicts the concept of God first of all... and it really depends on your view of nothing. In fact there is an entire philosophical study of nothing.

5- Well not everyone believes the SAME EXACT THING. But if someone were to be a t**t and ask that I would say in my opinion, yes. Total propaganda.

6- Yes I am. There are many things that average people can't explain, and what they are taught makes them even more superstitious. But they aren't communing with God so get over yourself.  

[Piroki-chan23]

D i v i n i t y

Okay, well I don't actually believe in any sort of god(s) whatsoever. I'm just curious as to how some of you, guild members, would answer the following questions. I'm going to just throw some arguments at you guys. I'm just curious... I want to see the different and similar defenses/arguments/points of view. I, myself, have had some of these arguments thrown at me before but most of them are just arguments I've heard somewhere before or read somewhere. I have my own answers to them but I would like to see other people's answers. You don't have to answer EVERY question if you don't want to but I would just like to see some responses if that's not too much to ask. :]

Basically, how would you respond to these questions/ statements?

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals

2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?




That is all. I know that some of these arguments are fairly easy to shoot down since they're pretty poor arguments, but I never said I agree with any of the statements. I just think they're arguments and I want to see how people respond to them. 3nodding

[1]-We are raised to be moral people by our parents even if we are raised to belive in religion or not. Besides, the important morals, like don't steal and don't kill, are the law anyway.

[2]-No, we as humans must advance as a race to last as long as possible.

[3]-Because if it did happen any other way there wouldn't be life. And what about all the planets with no life at all?

[4]-If you understood the big bang theory, you would know that there was a tiny singularity the size of a proton existing in either 10 or 27 dimentions. This ball was extreamly unstable an therefore split into several universes, our's being one of them.

[5]-Yes, most people are morons who couldn't possibly understand evolution and the big bang so they belive something much simpler.

[6]-If someone wants to exspirience something enough, thier mind will make them think they are exspiriencing that thing.  

[Inquisitor_Bane]

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals

Neither do some religious people.
Two word proof: Jim Jones.
Also, one does not need a religious background to respect and honor life and the living, as well as the dead.

2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

The lack of cause make life all the more meaningful and beautiful. The fact that there is no preordained direction or meaning gives life a truly great goal: make something of yourself. Mean something to the universe.

3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

All of these things can be explained by science. This seemingly perfect creation makes life all the more incredible for it's lack of creator.
And the fact that it happened means that it can, so it's not that weird. There are plenty of planets out there in space that would be perfect for life. And consider all the planets that ARE hostile.

4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

What do you think science is asking, dummy.
And this statement contradicts the whole thing.
WHERE DID GOD COME FROM, HMM?

5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

Yes, yes I do. But it doesn't matter. They can be stupid all they want, but so long as they don't hurt anyone, they're fine.

6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

They feel the presence of all the life in the universe. They misinterpret their feelings.  

[The Random Rapist]

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5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

YES, YES THEY ARE.

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6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

No, but simply they've been brought up to believe this is true,
see religion is like a contagious mental disease...

I also has a friend who claims to talk to god,
who is just plain crazy. lol

 

[StevenStBlaize]

1- Morals are derived not solely by religion, but by the society in which one lives.

2- A life without religion is not a life without a cause. Life is it's own cause.

3- Somewhere else in the vast universe, there are other conincidences similar to earth. It's impossible that Earth is the only incidence of life.

4- No one can truly answer, but we must make a choice about what we believe or choose not to believe and stick to it.

5- Yes.

6- Yes. God and religion are the crutches used by those who are too weak, or have grown too weak, mentally and emotionally to deal with the traumas, stresses, and difficulties in their every day lives.  

[Rey96950]

im hungry, now i want a burritto, thanks guys, you went ahead and reminded me of the beauty of mexican food ^_^  

[Tragic Orgy]

1- Atheists have no morals because they have nowhere to turn to to get their morals

Objective morality does not exist. No matter how hard or how much you try to support morality exists, it doesn't. Supporting the existence of morality is like supporting the existence of God. Morality means absolute set of rules/values, it is an objective term. When one says torture is morally wrong.. It applies to everyone, agreeing. We know that's impossible. And if you do make such a claim, where's your source?

Atheist have no morals and neither does anyone else on this planet. We have preferences, social behavior, logic, reasoning, empathy, etc.

2- Atheists believe life is meaningless because we arose with no cause

We arose by chance and that's meaningful. To know that our ancestors survived and evolved to which we are brought here is meaningful. It is rather meaningless to do good deeds because the holy scripture says so..

3- The universe is so perfectly designed. The earth is so perfectly positioned for life so that life can actually live on earth without freezing or burning to death. It all just works out too perfectly. Someone must've made it like that

Santa did it. If we're all perfectly designed, why do I have a tonsil and an appendix I don't use? And if premarital sex is wrong, then why does Santa have men producing millions of sperm? Why do I bleed 12 times a year and get horrible cramps? Why Santa, why? Why can't we have storks deliver babies, why me?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_G9awnDCmg

4- Nothing can only come from nothing; so where did this first something come from? How?

I do not know. We have much to learn about the universe.

5- A great majority of people believe in God. Do you really think they're ALL wrong?

A great majority thought the world was flat and the sun revolved around us, were they wrong?

6- What about all those people who claim that they can feel God's presence and can actually converse with him? Are you calling them all liars?

I'm calling them a schizo! Haha.. jk jk. The court authority of Salem witch trials believed the girls were telling the truth, look how the situation was handled. Skepticism is key. If a person claim to witness or have been possessed by spirits, is he or she lying? I cannot call them liars, but I'll be skeptical. I do not know what is true because so much possibilities can go into it. If we can re-detect something and test it, then we will know.