The What If Machine

[SYFFER]

Yoh-ko Rapper Ithilvalan

What if we all stop nitpicking? *g* No, I'm just kidding. By all means, do continue. Besides, that was my error.

Were the Vala living? Or were they just...there? I mean, if they were living, then when Morgoth was cast into the Void he would, in essence, be dead. If they were neither, then he just disappeared, and that I would say is different.

Hmm again with a broad and complex question. In my opinion, any being "created" by Illuvatar is "alive". In other words, to be "alive" means that you have a soul or the Secret Fire is in you. I believe that when Morgoth was cast into the outer void, his "fire" and essence were still there but his physical form was not. The Ainur were outside the world when they were created (since they were created before it) and they were still considered "alive". In conclusion, I believe that the Valar, as all other creatures with the secret fire, are alive.

3nodding There, a complex analysis for a complex question.
Waits to be attacked...  

[Darkfire_blade]

I have a question of my own, what if Boromir had not been killed by the Uruk-hai on Amon Hen? What would have happened then? Would things have been extremely different?  

[Thaxul]

Finally something I can answer!

Darkfire_blade

I have a question of my own, what if Boromir had not been killed by the Uruk-hai on Amon Hen? What would have happened then? Would things have been extremely different?

If he didn't die from being attacked all those orcs, we would assume he would have killed them all, which means Merry and pippin wouldn't have been captured by the orcs and Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas wouldn't have chased them all the way to Fangorn in Rohan. That means, that Treebeard wouldn't have attacked Isengard. Edoras would still be in the control of Wormtongue/Saruman and Rohan would have fallen with the attack of the Uruk-Hai.

Bringing it back to the Fellowship, with Boromir still alive, and Merry and Pippin not needing to be rescued, would they have gone after Sam and Frodo across the river? Or made their way to Gondor?

Had they gone after the ring bearer, they probably would not have taken Gollum's lead to the Black Gate, and made their way there with just the eight. And without Gollum, they wouldn't have known about Shelobs lair, so how would they have gotten into Mordor? They wouldn't. Game over.

If they went to Gondor, Sam and Frodo's path would remain the same. Denethor wouldn't have gone into madness since he didn't lose his son, but Gondor would have fallen because Rohan wouldn't come to rescue them, and neither would Aragorn and the Rangers have gone through the Paths of the Dead. Then Sam and Frodo would be caught in Mordor, because there would be no diversion at the Black Gate and Middle earth would fall into darkness.  

[SYFFER]

Wow Thaxul, you've really been waiting for that one haven't you? xd

Here's one: What if Eol never met Aredhel? Would that have saved Gondolin?  

[Thaxul]

SYFFER

Wow Thaxul, you've really been waiting for that one haven't you? xd

I just knew I could answer that.

Unlike your question gonk  

[SYFFER]

thaxul

SYFFER

Wow Thaxul, you've really been waiting for that one haven't you? xd

I just knew I could answer that.

Unlike your question gonk

Oh come on, my question isn't that hard to answer. I have it mapped out in my head I just want to see if anyone else can figure it out 3nodding  

[Tirno]

SYFFER

Here's one: What if Eol never met Aredhel? Would that have saved Gondolin?

It probably would have postponed the inevitable, but the Doom of Mandos would have found them eventually, anyways.  

[SYFFER]

Tirno

SYFFER

Here's one: What if Eol never met Aredhel? Would that have saved Gondolin?

It probably would have postponed the inevitable, but the Doom of Mandos would have found them eventually, anyways.

I suppose that's true but you're forgetting the fact that Earendil's fate may have been altered...  

[upwoueruwrwhjl]

Here's what I figure:
Aredhel returns to Gondolin. Maeglin is not born. Gondolin doesn't fall, because Maeglin isn't around to betrey them. Earendil grows up safe and happy. He doesn't sail to the West, the Valar don't help arda, Morgoth conquers the world, etc, etc, etc.
(Forgive me if this is off, i have not read the Fall of Gondolin for a while, so my details are a little rusty...) 4laugh  

[Imyavie]

Dark Elven Princess

Here's what I figure:
Aredhel returns to Gondolin. Maeglin is not born. Gondolin doesn't fall, because Maeglin isn't around to betrey them. Earendil grows up safe and happy. He doesn't sail to the West, the Valar don't help arda, Morgoth conquers the world, etc, etc, etc.
(Forgive me if this is off, i have not read the Fall of Gondolin for a while, so my details are a little rusty...) 4laugh

hey, it makes sense to me. 3nodding Lots of sense.  

[Tirno]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[SYFFER]

Dark Elven Princess

Here's what I figure:
Aredhel returns to Gondolin. Maeglin is not born. Gondolin doesn't fall, because Maeglin isn't around to betrey them. Earendil grows up safe and happy. He doesn't sail to the West, the Valar don't help arda, Morgoth conquers the world, etc, etc, etc.
(Forgive me if this is off, i have not read the Fall of Gondolin for a while, so my details are a little rusty...) 4laugh

Good job 3nodding . I know that the doom of the Noldor would have followed them anyhow but would Morgoth have been defeated? Oh no I just started another one sweatdrop  

[Tirno]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[SYFFER]

A bit too much assuming but well done. The doom of the Noldor is a powerful force but you can't just assume what would happen to them. The curse could have taken several ages before coming into affect. Also, Idril pressed Tuor to build the secret passage because of her ability to see into the future and she knew that one day, Gondolin would be attacked by the forces of Morgoth and predicted the Meglin would be responsible. So perhaps Tuor wouldn't have built the passage and Gondolin would possibly be attacked by some other method.

To be honest, Tolkien confuses me here concerning the fall of Gondolin since in one case, Hurin, after leaving the halls of Thingol journeys to Gondolin and inavertibly reveals it's location to Morgoth. In the other case, Meglin, out of jealousy of Tuor and love of Idril, betrays the location to Morgoth. Now which case really happened?  

[Tirno]

SYFFER

A bit too much assuming but well done. The doom of the Noldor is a powerful force but you can't just assume what would happen to them. The curse could have taken several ages before coming into affect. Also, Idril pressed Tuor to build the secret passage because of her ability to see into the future and she knew that one day, Gondolin would be attacked by the forces of Morgoth and predicted the Meglin would be responsible. So perhaps Tuor wouldn't have built the passage and Gondolin would possibly be attacked by some other method.

To be honest, Tolkien confuses me here concerning the fall of Gondolin since in one case, Hurin, after leaving the halls of Thingol journeys to Gondolin and inavertibly reveals it's location to Morgoth. In the other case, Meglin, out of jealousy of Tuor and love of Idril, betrays the location to Morgoth. Now which case really happened?

Hurin revealed only the region in which Gondolin lay, but Maeglin revealed the precise location.

If Idril had foresight, she would have seen the destruction of Gondolin by one way or another, which was inevitable (even Ulmo had predicted it). So the passage would still have been built. As for the time issue, the Halfelven were seemingly immortal until made the choice (look at Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir), so Earendil would probably still be alive whenever Gondolin fell. Even if he wasn't immortal, his halfelven descendants would probably have been just as qualified to be emissaries to the Valar.