Eambar: Off-Topic Thread

[Khorkalba]

I'm completely on Falathrim's side with this one. It's a simple fact that if Peter Jackson had of stuck accurately to the book, the movies would not be as successful as they were. I don't know why people fail to understand that. neutral

Nimbrethil

You missed my point. My point was that if you're going to make a film from an existing book, you might as well do it properly. And by "properly", I mean "without ******** s**t up", as in Elves at Helm's Deep, Faramir, and leaving out various integral parts of the basic storyline (Saruman's death, Scouring, etc).

...but those changes were vital to the success of the films.
Books and movies are completely different... when writing a book you aim it at a specific target audience, whereas with movies you have a much wider audience.

And please, try to remember the purpose of the movies. They were based on the books; the purpose wasn't for them to resemble the books in every detail.

Going off-topic here a bit, but think of movies based on historical events. I'm an avid history lover, but I don't get worked up when they manipulate the truth, because it's a movie and has to appeal to wide audience or it becomes pointless... in which case they may as well go lower-budget and make a documentary.

You need to stop seeing the films as a cinematic recreation of the work by Tolkien that's gone wrong, and more of an independant project that's loosely based on the books.  

[Slacktopian]

Kementari

Nienna of the Valar

Oh yeah! I had a Gaia dream last night. whee I dreamt that I was at my Creative Writing club when someone started dissing LOTR and getting facts wrong. Falathrim came in, smacked the person in the back of the head with a replica of Gandalf's staff, and then lectured the club on LOTR. Then, all of a sudden I was in the Green Dragon, and Longbow was sitting, drinking. Kementari came in and scared all of the Hobbits with her zombie-ness, and Longbow, me, and Gandalf(who randomly appeared) had to convince them that she was a nice zombie. Then we all just sat around and drank a lot of ale. 3nodding

Very odd... sweatdrop

Yay, I made it into a Gaia dream.
In reality I wouldn't want to scare the Hobbits.

I like the TE of RotK, and I believe I'll love the EE.
I know that the book and movie are two seperate mediums, and that they couldn't be exactly the same.

And I saw the trailer for the EE on TV today, I was so happy. It was big (bigger then the one on my computer) and didn't have PJ and the actors interupting it with talking.

You didn't scare them on purpose, though! You just came in, and the Hobbits were naturally scared by your zombie-ness. 3nodding

I liked the books and the movies. I was pissed at some of the changes, like the elves at Helm's Deep and the exclusion of the Houses of Healing, but I did like them. It was a better conversion from book to movie than most out there. Meh. I'd debate, but I'm home sick today. Feels like I swallowed broken glass, and I have a splitting headache. So... yeah. I can't wait for the EE! whee  

[Nimbrethil]

Feel better, Nienna!

Oh, I understand the reasons behind various changes. It's very easy to come up with the reasons and rationalize the changes. Of course they couldn't do everything exactly as it was in the book and still expect people to watch the movies.

So maybe I've been missing my own point. I think what I was trying to get at is my disgust at all the emphasis on financial success and the capitalist machine. It reduces the greatness that is Tolkien's work to just another way to make a few bucks. Cheapens it. It's almost like censoring (don't get me started on censorship) Tolkien's work as the filmmakers were forced to edit due to studio and time and "pacing" pressures.

Like I said before, there wasn't any need to do this by making the films. Wider audience, my a**. I'm repeating myself here, but the people who only like the movies don't like the movies in the same deep way that the bibliophiles like the books. Ok, so there wasn't any need to write the books either, but in a sense, they'd already been written even before Tolkien picked up a pen, and here I'll refer you to Joseph Campbell and leave it at that.

Longbow UK

Going off-topic here a bit, but think of movies based on historical events. I'm an avid history lover, but I don't get worked up when they manipulate the truth, because it's a movie and has to appeal to wide audience or it becomes pointless... in which case they may as well go lower-budget and make a documentary.

"Truth", eh? I may be undermining my argument here, but isn't history largely a matter of interpretation? smile  

[Khorkalba]

Nimbrethil

Feel better, Nienna!

Oh, I understand the reasons behind various changes. It's very easy to come up with the reasons and rationalize the changes. Of course they couldn't do everything exactly as it was in the book and still expect people to watch the movies.

So maybe I've been missing my own point. I think what I was trying to get at is my disgust at all the emphasis on financial success and the capitalist machine. It reduces the greatness that is Tolkien's work to just another way to make a few bucks. Cheapens it. It's almost like censoring (don't get me started on censorship) Tolkien's work as the filmmakers were forced to edit due to studio and time and "pacing" pressures.

Get well soon, Nienna. 3nodding

You make it sound as if the movies ruined Tolkien's work, which they didn't. If anything, they brought life and interest back to it. They expressed the beauty of Tolkien's imagination in a way that cannot be found in the books. (To a certain extent).
Also, a lot of people have become Tolkien fans after the movies.
Don't get me wrong here, I am in no way suggesting that the movies are better than the books, all i'm saying is that I think more good came from the movies than bad.

Nimbrethil

Longbow UK

Going off-topic here a bit, but think of movies based on historical events. I'm an avid history lover, but I don't get worked up when they manipulate the truth, because it's a movie and has to appeal to wide audience or it becomes pointless... in which case they may as well go lower-budget and make a documentary.

"Truth", eh? I may be undermining my argument here, but isn't history largely a matter of interpretation? smile

A lot of it is, but there is a lot that we do know for certain. Take the second world war for example; I have yet to see one successful film based around this period that was completely (or even near-completely) accurate.  

[Kementari]

Nienna of the Valar

Kementari

Nienna of the Valar

Oh yeah! I had a Gaia dream last night. whee I dreamt that I was at my Creative Writing club when someone started dissing LOTR and getting facts wrong. Falathrim came in, smacked the person in the back of the head with a replica of Gandalf's staff, and then lectured the club on LOTR. Then, all of a sudden I was in the Green Dragon, and Longbow was sitting, drinking. Kementari came in and scared all of the Hobbits with her zombie-ness, and Longbow, me, and Gandalf(who randomly appeared) had to convince them that she was a nice zombie. Then we all just sat around and drank a lot of ale. 3nodding

Very odd... sweatdrop

Yay, I made it into a Gaia dream.
In reality I wouldn't want to scare the Hobbits.

I like the TE of RotK, and I believe I'll love the EE.
I know that the book and movie are two seperate mediums, and that they couldn't be exactly the same.

And I saw the trailer for the EE on TV today, I was so happy. It was big (bigger then the one on my computer which is small) and didn't have PJ and the actors interupting it with talking.

You didn't scare them on purpose, though! You just came in, and the Hobbits were naturally scared by your zombie-ness. 3nodding

I liked the books and the movies. I was pissed at some of the changes, like the elves at Helm's Deep and the exclusion of the Houses of Healing, but I did like them. It was a better conversion from book to movie than most out there. Meh. I'd debate, but I'm home sick today. Feels like I swallowed broken glass, and I have a splitting headache. So... yeah. I can't wait for the EE! whee

Get well soon. *hands you cup of hot soup*

I knew when I read about your dream that I didn't intend to scare the Hobbits.
I suppose anyone would be scared if a zombie walked into their house or pub. Especially if they were unannounced.  

[Slacktopian]

Awww, thanks guys! whee

Kementari, right after you posted, my mom brought me a cup of hot soup! eek *twilight zone theme plays in background*

EDIT: *huggles new cape* I got it in the exchange for only 1500! whee heart  

[Thaxul]

I got mine for free...but it is on one of my friends wishlists, so I am going to give it to her for christmas! xp  

[Khorkalba]

Yeah, I still have a few as well which i'll probably hand out at Christmas, along with various other items. wink  

[Onoj]

I did not like the movies for the simple fact of change. I can understand the change of a fact because it was neccesary but the elves at Helm's Deep were simply stupid. Ant their explanation for being there made no sense at all.
Also Faramir's personality should not have changed so drastically . The movie ruined the whole reason why I fell in love with his character in the first place. No movie can adapt a book to movie perfectly but they can also avoid simple ignorant changes that confuse and piss off original fans.  

[Falathrim]

Faramir's change. Hmm...

Okay, I'm gonna ramble now in a seemingly incoherent manner.

Frodo and Sam needed some sort of conflict presented before them in Two Towers. PJ had two choices: Get him to Shelob, or invent some conlfict. Most people would immediately say "Shelob, duh." But they forget one little issue with that.

There are three chapters between Shelob at the undoing of the Ring.

This would leave three chapters for RotK; a three hour movie. Can you say stretching things? The people I've talked to already tell me that they think Sam and Frodo were wandering Mordor too long. Can you imagine their reactions if PJ had tripled that?

PJ realized this. It was obvious the Shelob would need to be placed in RotK, or else Sam and Frodo would be doing nothing but walking around for three full hours.

Of course, now, Sam and Frodo had no major conflict in TT. However, it's much easier to invent something when you're walking in a populated land rather than an empty land. A small change to Faramir's character, and there you go!

Sometimes, sacrifices must be made. Sure, Faramir could have remained as he was, but then Return of the King would have more boring then watching... I dunno, grass.

Plus, it seems as if the EE will help redeem Faramir.

Faramir, EE

I would not use the ring. Not if Minas Tirith were falling in ruin and I alone could save it!

 

[Khorkalba]

Onoj

I did not like the movies for the simple fact of change. I can understand the change of a fact because it was neccesary but the elves at Helm's Deep were simply stupid. Ant their explanation for being there made no sense at all.
Also Faramir's personality should not have changed so drastically . The movie ruined the whole reason why I fell in love with his character in the first place. No movie can adapt a book to movie perfectly but they can also avoid simple ignorant changes that confuse and piss off original fans.

I thought the Elves being at Helm's Deep was a valid change. I personally didn't like it, but it was valid.
You have to remember that the film had to meet the needs of people who hadn't read the book as well as those who had.
As for Faramir's personality change, I didn't like it either, but again, you need to look at it from a film-makers point of view. Which would benefit the movie more? The changed personality was better suited for a movie, it added more drama and emotion which was required. It also made the scenes more complex, which again, is needed in a movie.  

[Nimbrethil]

Um... what are we debating again? Whether or not changes were good? Perhaps we're having differing thoughts on the definition of "good". Does "good" mean financial success? Is it some sort of undefinable "feels right" quality? Does it mean sticking like glue to every comma ever set down by Tolkien? Do I have any idea what I'm talking about?

Longbow UK

Nimbrethil

"Truth", eh? I may be undermining my argument here, but isn't history largely a matter of interpretation? smile

A lot of it is, but there is a lot that we do know for certain. Take the second world war for example; I have yet to see one successful film based around this period that was completely (or even near-completely) accurate.

"Completely accurate" is a loaded phrase in this case, though. Know what I mean? If people are recording history (I'm going to resist the urge to put "history" in quotation marks, because it looks stupid doing that all the time), then it's going to be biased and unobjective in some way. Even if the "facts" (sorry, can't help it) are there, different spins can be put on them depending on who writes about it. History wasn't written by the losing side.  

[Falathrim]

Yeah, you're right. History in quotations marks is stupid. Only idiots claim history is unbiased.

"Good" is whether or not the change made the movie better. Whether you want to admit it or not, a perfect transcription from book to movie would have been absolutely awful. No, I don't think you do. wink

The Third Age, so far, has been fair "meh." And I'm not even speaking on terms of canon, either. I'm not impressed with the gameplay yet.  

[Zurgi]

Falathrim

The Third Age, so far, has been fair "meh." And I'm not even speaking on terms of canon, either. I'm not impressed with the gameplay yet.

I haven't played it on console yet, only on GBA. And I don't think it's too bad on GBA, but I can't win this one battle so I have to keep redoing old battles to gain experience, which is highly annoying and boring stressed  

[Nimbrethil]

I said it looks stupid doing that all the time. I didn't say it was unnecessary. Unless you weren't actually being sarcastic for once and I'm just misreading your post.

I just finished 8 hours at work, where I was forced to listen to "A Country Christmas" on repeat the whole time. I think my IQ has suffered, and I'm considering legal action. Also, if I hear one more crappy rendition of "Jingle Bell Rock" I'm going to go Incredible Hulk on someone's a**.

So my point is: no, I have no idea what I'm talking about right now. I'm fresh out of arguments, especially since I don't really hate the movies.

But I'm not going to let them get away with "central nervous system". Didn't that irk you? What were they thinking?