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 Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:33 pm
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Skibblez Lord Bitememan Skibblez they are enemy soldiers and terrorists. There is absolutely no legal or traditional precedent to back this claim. This statement is truly devoid of any reading or understanding of either the subjects of immigration or warfare. well what do enemy soldiers/ terrorists cause? damage. damage to peoples lives, jobs, the economy etc, they come in, they take, the steal, they kill, and they give nothing back. besically the same thing as an illegal immigrant.
Your logic:
Soldiers cause damage.
Illegal immigrants cause damage (this is also a false statement).
Therefore illegal immigrants are soldiers.
This is an elementary school logic that breaks down on scrutiny. Consider applying your logic to other things.
Soldiers cause damage.
Flood waters cause damage.
Therefore flood waters are soldiers.
Do you see now how your logic in this matter falls into the absurd? Illegal immigrants are not soldiers. For one thing, they aren't generally armed. They are not trained. They are not centrally directed by military leadership. They do not pursue a common military goal. What they do is come here and build decks and scrub toilets. That does not an army make. |
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:29 pm
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:21 am
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Lord Bitememan Skibblez Lord Bitememan Skibblez they are enemy soldiers and terrorists. There is absolutely no legal or traditional precedent to back this claim. This statement is truly devoid of any reading or understanding of either the subjects of immigration or warfare. well what do enemy soldiers/ terrorists cause? damage. damage to peoples lives, jobs, the economy etc, they come in, they take, the steal, they kill, and they give nothing back. besically the same thing as an illegal immigrant. Your logic: Soldiers cause damage. Illegal immigrants cause damage (this is also a false statement). Therefore illegal immigrants are soldiers. This is an elementary school logic that breaks down on scrutiny. Consider applying your logic to other things. Soldiers cause damage. Flood waters cause damage. Therefore flood waters are soldiers. Do you see now how your logic in this matter falls into the absurd? Illegal immigrants are not soldiers. For one thing, they aren't generally armed. They are not trained. They are not centrally directed by military leadership. They do not pursue a common military goal. What they do is come here and build decks and scrub toilets. That does not an army make.
except flood waters destroying cities don't benifit the sea. i live in texas. i'm surrounded by them. my dad actually knows one of the minute men. they often found used water bottles littered along the common paths these people take. but what's this? the bottles labels aren't printed in spanish nor english. they are printed in arabic. many terrorists come through the borders too, and these same terrorists support the illegal mexicans by selling them water. the terrorists do this for, 1- income to support their evil, 2- they want the illegals to get into america. why? because even the terrorists are smart enough to know how damaging the illegal invaders are to america. plus illegal immigration brings in revenue for the countries these people are leaving, because as i've stated before, many of these guys come in scrubbing our toilets and then take that money and send it back to mexico or china or where ever they came from. |
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:10 pm
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Skibblez Lord Bitememan Skibblez Lord Bitememan Skibblez they are enemy soldiers and terrorists. There is absolutely no legal or traditional precedent to back this claim. This statement is truly devoid of any reading or understanding of either the subjects of immigration or warfare. well what do enemy soldiers/ terrorists cause? damage. damage to peoples lives, jobs, the economy etc, they come in, they take, the steal, they kill, and they give nothing back. besically the same thing as an illegal immigrant. Your logic: Soldiers cause damage. Illegal immigrants cause damage (this is also a false statement). Therefore illegal immigrants are soldiers. This is an elementary school logic that breaks down on scrutiny. Consider applying your logic to other things. Soldiers cause damage. Flood waters cause damage. Therefore flood waters are soldiers. Do you see now how your logic in this matter falls into the absurd? Illegal immigrants are not soldiers. For one thing, they aren't generally armed. They are not trained. They are not centrally directed by military leadership. They do not pursue a common military goal. What they do is come here and build decks and scrub toilets. That does not an army make. except flood waters destroying cities don't benifit the sea.
Sure they do. They sweep out people and animals for the sharks to eat.
Quote: i live in texas. i'm surrounded by them.
I'm from Detroit. I'll take two Mexicans for every Albanian we have up here. I also live on the cusp of a heavy agricultural region, and the local landscaping business is right down the street from me. We have more than our fair share of Mexicans here. Did you know we actually have a portion of Detroit called Mexican Village? The workers in this area are very nice, and very polite. I don't get the chance to ask citizenship status because most stay clear out of your way except maybe to hold the door open for you. I did have some Mexican temps working under me for the longest. Juan and Jose were some of the hardest workers there. We got dozens of containers split because those two guys rolled up their sleeves and worked. See, I insisted on them because they never screwed up, unlike the Polish and Ukrainian temps the boss insists on using. If you want to talk about economic damage to the US, Orest and Ziggy took 40 hour a week paychecks and usually made a mess of anything they touched.
Quote: my dad actually knows one of the minute men. they often found used water bottles littered along the common paths these people take. but what's this? the bottles labels aren't printed in spanish nor english. they are printed in arabic.
Sweet Jesus the Arabs are selling people water! Next thing you know the Japanese will be selling people electronics.
Quote: many terrorists come through the borders too, and these same terrorists support the illegal mexicans by selling them water. the terrorists do this for, 1- income to support their evil, 2- they want the illegals to get into america.
You know what else supports terrorism? Oil revenues. Sheiks, princes, and the like in the middle east get oil revenue, donate it to Islamist charities, who then funnel it to extremist groups. And, with oil trading near $80 a barrel, the revenues benefiting terrorism from a gallon of gasoline are far more than you could even dream of from selling water. So, maybe instead of worrying about a thirsty Mexican buying a bottle of water you ought to be encouraging fellow Texans to scrap those huge gas guzzling trucks they own in favor of small, fuel-efficient hybrids. That might stop more terrorists than getting paranoid about a border crossing that not one of the 9-11 hijackers crossed.
Quote: why? because even the terrorists are smart enough to know how damaging the illegal invaders are to america.
They aren't doing any damage. Just because you repeat it a lot doesn't make a false claim true, all due respect to Mr. Lenin.
Quote: plus illegal immigration brings in revenue for the countries these people are leaving, because as i've stated before, many of these guys come in scrubbing our toilets and then take that money and send it back to mexico or china or where ever they came from.
Actually, the remittances to China come from legal residents. Research your facts young Skywalker. As to the remittances to Mexico, it's more of a problem for Mexico than it is for us. The money they send back is a pittance of annual gross domestic product. However, it provides a pressure valve that prevents a critical mass of support for meaningful reform within Mexico. Were the remittances stopped Mexicans would actually look for internal methods of improving the distribution of wealth within society as opposed to relying on an external method.
You still have yet to advance this asinine claim beyond the point of grade-school level syllogism. |
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:22 pm
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true, there is alot of money leaving the country from legal residents too. which i also believe that should be illegal as well. wether someone comes here legally or illegally, it's wrong to take money out of our economy and send it over to another countries' economy. and maybe in the idealistic sense it is hurting mexico for our money to be going to them. but even in your own statement you did not say that it benifits us. it still hurts us, and in the way you look at it, it hurts both mexico and america. so forget calling them soldiers. i realize it's a bit extreme but the times are extreme and so will be the damage if the illegal immigration problem continues. and you failed to mention any reply to the fact that it does support terrorism. although the little immigrants may not all be coming in with the intention of killing us, some who do have that desire are mixed in with the ones who don't. and the ones who don't have the intent still help the ones who do have the intent get accross.. i.e. by buying their water and supporting their funds, giving them a group to travel with, etc. all childish arguments over who's using grade school logic and who's not need to be set aside. the simple fact is, in accordance with this particular forum, that the illegal immigrants should definately not be permitted to go to school here, and furthermore their presense in america does more harm than good to us and other countries, and they should be deported.
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:44 pm
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Skibblez true, there is alot of money leaving the country from legal residents too. which i also believe that should be illegal as well.
So, ban free trade and imports? Because that causes money to leave the country too. In fact all that foreign oil we buy, all those Chinese imports, even when you buy wine from Australia, it all results in money going overseas. And, of course, when they purchase American goods, it results in money coming back to America. Your view of wealth is zero-sum, and that view is contradicted by every major school of economics we know. Wealth is produced and destroyed all the time, and is highly fluid in the global market. We buy Mexican oil and their migrants send money to Mexico. Mexico then buys Boeing aircraft and cheaply produced midwestern grain crops. American farmers and aviation engineers then buy Chinese built televisions and microwaves. Chinese factory workers then buy imported tobacco. The money circulates. Money that does not circulate is worthless. The more it circulates, and the farther it circulates, the greater its worth.
Quote: wether someone comes here legally or illegally, it's wrong to take money out of our economy and send it over to another countries' economy.
Setting aside the painfully zero-sum nature of this logic, you do realize the entire system of international trade is built on the concept of wealth flowing between different economies, right?
Quote: and maybe in the idealistic sense it is hurting mexico for our money to be going to them.
It's not idealistic, it's very practical. If you want Mexico to stop exporting its citizenry to the US, some mechanism of economic well being has to exist for the Mexican poor. Without the remittance pressure valve a restive citizenry would force change internally to cultivate such a mechanism. Without such a movement, the Mexican model is to continue to export its citizenry to the US.
Quote: but even in your own statement you did not say that it benifits us.
I don't need to. That which does not hurt us does not reflexively benefit us. It's not an either-or proposition, there are other outcomes.
Prove it. You've not supplied one single argument outside the specious wealth transfer argument that suggests any direct damage.
Quote: and in the way you look at it, it hurts both mexico and america. so forget calling them soldiers. i realize it's a bit extreme but the times are extreme and so will be the damage if the illegal immigration problem continues.
Or it's not extreme. I mean, you're making a nebulous prediction of calamity without any argument as to linkage between the problem and any future harm, no failure point at which calamity occurs, and indeed no actual impacts present themselves in your argument. All you've said is damage will occur as a result of illegal immigration. That's easily laughed off with a simple "or it won't." Unless you claim to be able to read the future, there's no more reason to believe your argument than the other one. And if you can read the future, forget the immigration thing and start giving us lottery numbers.
Quote: and you failed to mention any reply to the fact that it does support terrorism.
I certainly did address it. I said:
Quote: You know what else supports terrorism? Oil revenues. Sheiks, princes, and the like in the middle east get oil revenue, donate it to Islamist charities, who then funnel it to extremist groups. And, with oil trading near $80 a barrel, the revenues benefiting terrorism from a gallon of gasoline are far more than you could even dream of from selling water. So, maybe instead of worrying about a thirsty Mexican buying a bottle of water you ought to be encouraging fellow Texans to scrap those huge gas guzzling trucks they own in favor of small, fuel-efficient hybrids. That might stop more terrorists than getting paranoid about a border crossing that not one of the 9-11 hijackers crossed.
Frankly I don't even buy, for a second, the argument that any large-scale water-selling operation is being used to raise funds for terrorism. Give me a source on that one and we can discuss it further.
Quote: although the little immigrants may not all be coming in with the intention of killing us, some who do have that desire are mixed in with the ones who don't.
None, not one of the 9-11 hijackers entered from Mexico. We have caught more people on the terror watch list trying to cross from Canada than we have from Mexico.
Quote: and the ones who don't have the intent still help the ones who do have the intent get accross.. i.e. by buying their water and supporting their funds, giving them a group to travel with, etc.
Nobody is saying you shouldn't regulate the border better than it currently is. Controlling who is coming in and out is an important feature of national sovereignty. But the case of terrorists coming into the US via the Mexican border crossing has always been a weak one relying primarily on innuendo and unverified reports. Even this water selling you keep bringing up doesn't seem to be supported by any reputable source. Seriously, Al Qaeda IS a major paramilitary organization. They don't support themselves off bake-sale wares.
Quote: all childish arguments . . . need to be set aside.
Great. I'm waiting for you to ditch all the ones you've advanced in this discussion.
Quote: the simple fact is, in accordance with this particular forum, that the illegal immigrants should definately not be permitted to go to school here,
Indeed, that is topical. Perhaps you should have led in with that instead of this ridiculous "soldiers" argument.
Quote: and furthermore their presense in america does more harm than good to us and other countries,
Prove it. |
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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:07 pm
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Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:00 pm
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Skibblez the way you talk about the illegal immagrants makes me believe you support their immigration and their being here.
Immaterial. What I do and don't believe have nothing to do with the manifest deficiencies in your arguments.
Quote: ok... the money being sent to other countries thing... there is a difference between sending money in exchange for a product, and sending money so wife and baby can eat afford some apples. if i had 100$ in my wallet and you had ten. and i gave you 50$ in exchange for a video game, that would be a fair exchange. yay smiley faces, everyones happy. but if i had 100 bucks in my wallet and i just gave you 50 dollars for nothing, we can probly both agree that it would do more harm to me than good, seeing now that i'm out of 50 bucks and gained nothing.
The problem with your analogy is that illegal immigrants don't just cross the border and see cash magically gravitating to their pockets through super-hippie force. They actually come here and obtain employment. That means they ARE exchanging goods for money, in this case labor for below market wages. Believe it or not, fences and decks don't build themselves. Lettuce doesn't voluntarily uproot and march to market. People have to build fences and decks and also harvest produce. For these services you have to pay them. If you don't, your decks remain a pile of wood and nails, your fences a pile of posts and mesh, and your produce sits in a field and rots benefiting nobody. This money that illegal immigrants send to Mexico is the end result of a market exchange that leaves Americans with built fences and decks, and lettuce on their tables. That is neither economic damage nor a zero-sum transfer of wealth.
Quote: and in your idealism, that would also hurt you because then you wouldn't be motivated to go out and get a job to support yourself because of your reliance on taking money out of my wallet.
Again, this has nothing to do with idealism. You're ignoring the entirety of the economics that comes into play to get money into the pockets of illegals. Rather than idealistic, this is cold Libertarian economic realism coming into play. A service is being offered cheaply by people willing to perform the service at that price. A domestic consumer market is purchasing this service without regard to artificially imposed market barriers on the commerce. When in the late 19th century industrialists needed a large supply of cheap labor the government officially accommodated them by allowing enormous waves of eastern and southern Europeans into the country to work in the factories. Many of them also sent remittances to Europe both to finance travel to the States and to support families left behind. Rather than proving to be damaging to the US, it heralded our ascendancy as a global industrial power. I do not make any claims as to the effect of illegal Mexican immigrants in the US, merely that there is no linkage between their presence here, the work they do, and damage to the US. Rather than idealism on my part, I wonder if maybe you yourself have issues with the race of the immigrants.
Quote: of course if the satisfaction of knowing i helped someone out of a hard time at my loss is actually worth the 50 bucks, then that's a different story. but now in the broader perspective.... i don't think that gaining nice feelings about helping other countries should be at the top of america's to-do list right now.
Nor did I suggest it should be. The United States of America should always pursue a self-interested policy, whether that policy include the pursuit of cheap suppliers of commodities (see US-Middle Eastern policy) or the pursuit of cheap sources of labor. Bush, more than any other Republican, got this. That is why he proposed a legal method of addressing the economic need for cheap Mexican labor while reestablishing the rule of law on our borders. Narrow-minded demagogic idiots in the GOP like Tom Tancredo and JD Hayworth couldn't see the forest from the trees on the issue and threw their weight behind an ignorant racist anti-Mexican campaign. Well, I assure you, the war on Mexicans will go about as well as the war on drugs. As long as demand exists, supply will be furnished. It's neither idealism nor good feeling, it's cold hard economic reality. |
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:40 pm
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well. as for me, i'm perfectly capable building my own decks and fences, planting my own garden, fixing my own car, fixing my own home, mowing my own yard, etc. but if i wasn't capable of doing such things, i would much rather pay a legal mexican immigrant $10 per hour to build my fence, than pay some illegal mexican $5 an hour to build it. why? i guess in your mind i'm probably crazy. but i would rather see my money go to someone who did it right, who came here legally, someone who's actually an american citizen. the fact that our government prefers to support a bunch of people who are here illegally over people who are american citizens, shows exactly what bad shape our country is in. all those people could have done it legally and come over here and built fences and stuff for their cheap labor. but i will say a few non-economic things about them. guess what illegals don't have, ss numbers. yeah we all know that.. so that means, they can't get drivers liscenses.. therefore they can't get liability insurance. you get hit by an illegal immigrant and you don't have full coverage, you're screwed. also because they don't have ss#'s they are very hard to track. they can go anywhere they want, claim their name is john doe and get their job. i had a close friend that got raped by an illegal mexican... needless to say he dissapeared and was never found, thus never prosecuted. they cause more problems to the american people than just economic ones. i still believe they need to be hunted down and deported, and that those who resist deportation need to be deported to a wooden box 6 feet under. a cheap wood at that. they are not american citizens and the bill of rights should not apply to them.
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:20 pm
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Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:12 pm
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Skibblez well. as for me, i'm perfectly capable building my own decks and fences, planting my own garden, fixing my own car, fixing my own home, mowing my own yard, etc.
Hi there, I'm not just trees, I'm a forest. You missed the point. Your individual preferences do not negate a statistical aggregate demand. Think of it this way. I don't smoke weed, nor do I care too. This personal choice does not negate that statistically, many people do smoke weed, and this demand sustains a market for weed. Where a market exists, supply is generally obtainable. Just because I don't smoke weed doesn't mean my neighbors don't. And because my neighbors do, there are people who can make money selling it to them. Similarly, just because you head out and build your own deck doesn't mean other people do. And other people who choose to contract this job will search for the cheapest source of labor available. Mexicans are willing to come here and supply this cheap labor. Supply and Demand, your personal choices notwithstanding, govern the market.
Quote: but if i wasn't capable of doing such things, i would much rather pay a legal mexican immigrant $10 per hour to build my fence, than pay some illegal mexican $5 an hour to build it. why? i guess in your mind i'm probably crazy.
No, you are a consumer making a market choice. You are selecting a product for its features as opposed to its price. There's nothing particularly wrong with that.
Quote: but i would rather see my money go to someone who did it right, who came here legally, someone who's actually an american citizen.
I guess the concept of resident aliens never crossed your mind?
Quote: the fact that our government prefers to support a bunch of people who are here illegally over people who are american citizens, shows exactly what bad shape our country is in.
Who said the government supports them? Nearly every bill that has passed since the whole immigration flare-up has included provisions and riders specifically denying whatever benefits the bills confers to illegal immigrants. The only actual support the government confers to illegals consists of emergency room treatment and access to the public school systems for their children. That's it.
Quote: all those people could have done it legally and come over here and built fences and stuff for their cheap labor.
Actually, they couldn't, and that was precisely what Bush's Comprehensive Immigration Reform was about. The immigration laws are specifically written to discourage the entry of unskilled labor on work visas. Bush's plan was to create the guest worker program for just this very purpose. Of course, it got torpedoed by nativists, so now the demand exists, it will continue to be filled, and the rule of law continued to be flouted.
Quote: but i will say a few non-economic things about them. guess what illegals don't have, ss numbers. yeah we all know that.. so that means, they can't get drivers liscenses.. therefore they can't get liability insurance. you get hit by an illegal immigrant and you don't have full coverage, you're screwed.
Yes, but if you get hit by any uninsured driver, you're screwed. Most people who drive without insurance are poor and have no assets to go after in a civil suit. And there's millions of such drivers in the United States who are citizens. This is a typical sleight of hand usually brought up in these discussions, attribute some malfeasance to individuals within a group or the group as a whole in cases where it is not statistically our greatest problem, and paint it as though all the problem emanates from that group. There are more uninsured drivers in America who are citizens than there are who are illegal immigrants. If your concern is uninsured driving, you have bigger monsters out there to slay.
Quote: i had a close friend that got raped by an illegal mexican... needless to say he dissapeared and was never found, thus never prosecuted.
Again, same thing you pulled with the driving issue. There are more rapists who remain uncaptured and/or unprosecuted among our native born populace than there are in the illegal population. For your friend's misfortune I extend my condolences. However, I doubt highly that it would make much of a difference to her if the Mexican that raped her was here legally. She would still have been raped. Ditto this sentiment if it were some frat boy at college or even a disturbed older relative. And, as rape is one of the hardest crimes to prosecute, I doubt she would gain much more solace if he were easily found, claimed it was consensual sex, and was informed by the prosecutor that there is insufficient evidence to go forward with a case. The endemic problems of rape in America have nothing to do with the immigration status of the perpetrators.
Quote: they cause more problems to the american people than just economic ones.
You've yet to demonstrate any unique problems in this diatribe.
Quote: i still believe they need to be hunted down and deported, and that those who resist deportation need to be deported to a wooden box 6 feet under. a cheap wood at that. they are not american citizens and the bill of rights should not apply to them.
You would have fit in well in Hitler's cabinet. |
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:34 am
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Skibblez well. as for me, i'm perfectly capable building my own decks and fences, planting my own garden, fixing my own car, fixing my own home, mowing my own yard, etc. but if i wasn't capable of doing such things, i would much rather pay a legal mexican immigrant $10 per hour to build my fence, than pay some illegal mexican $5 an hour to build it. why? i guess in your mind i'm probably crazy. but i would rather see my money go to someone who did it right, who came here legally, someone who's actually an american citizen. the fact that our government prefers to support a bunch of people who are here illegally over people who are american citizens, shows exactly what bad shape our country is in. all those people could have done it legally and come over here and built fences and stuff for their cheap labor. but i will say a few non-economic things about them. guess what illegals don't have, ss numbers. yeah we all know that.. so that means, they can't get drivers liscenses.. therefore they can't get liability insurance. you get hit by an illegal immigrant and you don't have full coverage, you're screwed. also because they don't have ss#'s they are very hard to track. they can go anywhere they want, claim their name is john doe and get their job. i had a close friend that got raped by an illegal mexican... needless to say he dissapeared and was never found, thus never prosecuted. they cause more problems to the american people than just economic ones. i still believe they need to be hunted down and deported, and that those who resist deportation need to be deported to a wooden box 6 feet under. a cheap wood at that. they are not american citizens and the bill of rights should not apply to them.
Just to let you know there are company's across the US that make illegal Social Security cards and Driver's Licenses. About 10 years ago we had this problem at work. At that time we had about 90% mexicans.
They even got to the point of telling their managers to learn spanish because they do not have to speak English (completly wrong).
Anywhy they had SS and DL (made in Wisconsin, they told us), but the company never checked them out before hiring them.
They were given a notice and were let go, before they got caught. |
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