The What If Machine

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Tirno

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Tirno

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Tirno

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Well that's true but what if Saruman had made another object (a ring of his own perhaps) to use to come back in case of his defeat?

Well, if I remember correctly, Saruman did make a Ring of his own (he claimed the title "Ring-maker"), but it didn't seem to hold that much power.

That's true. Saruman may be a weaker Maia but I think that after the defeat of Sauron, another Maia if not Morgoth himself would return to fill the void. I think that Tolkien intended it to be that after the Elves left Middle-earth, Men dominated and eventually evolved into us. So perhaps there was a Sauron in every century or period. Hitler would possibly be the Sauron of the twentieth century. So if that's true, what Sauron will we have for this century?

Haha, I guess some might compare Hitler's skills as a speaker and the power of Saruman's voice. But as far as weaker Maiar coming after Sauron, it might be possible. But I think they were running out of evil, powerful Maiar; the balrogs were gone, the fiercer dragons, etc. Most of the evil after Sauron was probably Man vs. Man.

And that backs up my theory that Tolkien wanted the Men of Middle-earth to evolve into us. Our wars are just part of a chain extending since the first battle of Middle-earth

If I remember correctly, the whole Middle-Earth legendarium was to be taken as a mythology concerning this very Earth.

That's right. I bet that in a thousand years or so, when the world is destroyed by nuclear war, aliens will visit earth and uncover nothing but a preserved collection of Tolkien's works and therefore, study it and come to believe that the collection is actually historical documents we kept of our time 3nodding  

[Tirno]

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That's right. I bet that in a thousand years or so, when the world is destroyed by nuclear war, aliens will visit earth and uncover nothing but a preserved collection of Tolkien's works and therefore, study it and come to believe that the collection is actually historical documents we kept of our time 3nodding

Haha, not a bad thing for humanity to be remembered by. But anyways, what if Arvedui's claim to the kingship of both Gondor and Arnor had not been rejected by the Dunedain of Gondor?  

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Tirno

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That's right. I bet that in a thousand years or so, when the world is destroyed by nuclear war, aliens will visit earth and uncover nothing but a preserved collection of Tolkien's works and therefore, study it and come to believe that the collection is actually historical documents we kept of our time 3nodding

Haha, not a bad thing for humanity to be remembered by. But anyways, what if Arvedui's claim to the kingship of both Gondor and Arnor had not been rejected by the Dunedain of Gondor?

Hmm, good one. I assume that the Kingdoms would be united and would have stood a better chance against the forces of Angmar. If Angmar was defeated that early, Sauron's force would have been lessed and the Witch-King of Angmar less significant or even defeated. The Dunedain would have a King and would not have to revert to an isolationist life. Aragorn would have been king at birth and would have had quicker and more effective control of the armies of Men. With that kind of force and his friendship with Elrond and Gandalf, Aragorn would have been able to defeat Sauron quickly and easily. Many alterations would occur but the general idea is that Aragorn as the leader of Men would have been alot more effective than that idiotic fool Denethor.  

[Tirno]

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Hmm, good one. I assume that the Kingdoms would be united and would have stood a better chance against the forces of Angmar. If Angmar was defeated that early, Sauron's force would have been lessed and the Witch-King of Angmar less significant or even defeated. The Dunedain would have a King and would not have to revert to an isolationist life. Aragorn would have been king at birth and would have had quicker and more effective control of the armies of Men. With that kind of force and his friendship with Elrond and Gandalf, Aragorn would have been able to defeat Sauron quickly and easily. Many alterations would occur but the general idea is that Aragorn as the leader of Men would have been alot more effective than that idiotic fool Denethor.

Hmm, yeah. Here another issue about it. Had Arnor survived and the realms united, the palantiri of the kingdoms would have probably remained as well. There is still the possibility that Sauron would still take Minas Ithil and the palantir. If that happens, Sauron might influence, or gain control over users of the palantiri (in LotR everyone who owned a remaining palantir got ensnared in some way, except for Cirdan and the palantir that looked only to Tol Eressea). Also, I wouldn't be so quick to call Denethor an idiotic fool. He was a great leader, but took the fatal mistake of looking into the palantir.  

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Tirno

Hmm, yeah. Here another issue about it. Had Arnor survived and the realms united, the palantiri of the kingdoms would have probably remained as well. There is still the possibility that Sauron would still take Minas Ithil and the palantir. If that happens, Sauron might influence, or gain control over users of the palantiri (in LotR everyone who owned a remaining palantir got ensnared in some way, except for Cirdan and the palantir that looked only to Tol Eressea). Also, I wouldn't be so quick to call Denethor an idiotic fool. He was a great leader, but took the fatal mistake of looking into the palantir.

That's true. Denethor was a great leader we all know that, but even if he had seen the future, he reacted too insanely. A great Man is not someone that can command an army or manage a Kingdom, it is someone that can stare fate in the eye and defy it. Denethor could have used the visions in the palantiri to lead his army to victory. He succumbed to his seemingly inevitable future and even neglected the fatc his only remaining son is alive and tried to burn him. Just by attempting suicide when his Kingdom needed him reveals what a coward he was.  

[Tirno]

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That's true. Denethor was a great leader we all know that, but even if he had seen the future, he reacted too insanely. A great Man is not someone that can command an army or manage a Kingdom, it is someone that can stare fate in the eye and defy it. Denethor could have used the visions in the palantiri to lead his army to victory. He succumbed to his seemingly inevitable future and even neglected the fatc his only remaining son is alive and tried to burn him. Just by attempting suicide when his Kingdom needed him reveals what a coward he was.

Well, I think Denethor was able to stand up to fate, especially since he had been fated all of his life to be second best to a nonexistant king and seemed to cope fairly well, until his decline due to the palantir. It was the daunting power of Sauron, which few could even stand, that made him despair. The motivation behind his use of the palantir was a desperate act in desperate times that unfortunately led to the slow undoing of Denethor, though credit must still be given that he did not fall under Sauron's dominion. As for using the palantir for strategic purposes, Denethor could only see what was happening; Gondor's reach had grown short and it could only wait while its enemies grew where Gondor couldn't touch. And since Sauron also had a palantir, Denethor had no advantage of knowledge over Sauron.  

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The credit you give Denethor he has earned but unfortunately, he discredited himself by the end of his life. It is true that he was always second but he had most of the powers of a king. The only thing he did not possess was the title.  

[Tirno]

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The credit you give Denethor he has earned but unfortunately, he discredited himself by the end of his life. It is true that he was always second but he had most of the powers of a king. The only thing he did not possess was the title.

The title and the reverence that goes with it.  

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Tirno

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The credit you give Denethor he has earned but unfortunately, he discredited himself by the end of his life. It is true that he was always second but he had most of the powers of a king. The only thing he did not possess was the title.

The title and the reverence that goes with it.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be hiding behind the shadow of a greater man while I'm clearly capable of ruling my Kingdom myself. Poor Denethor neutral  

[Tirno]

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Yeah, I wouldn't want to be hiding behind the shadow of a greater man while I'm clearly capable of ruling my Kingdom myself. Poor Denethor neutral

Yeah, especially because this happened when he was young, too. If you recall, Aragorn, in the guise of Thorongil, did many great feats in Ecthelion's service and won the highest praise of the Gondorians, making Denethor second best to a man with unknown origin and lineage, even in the eyes of his father and people.  

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Tirno

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Yeah, I wouldn't want to be hiding behind the shadow of a greater man while I'm clearly capable of ruling my Kingdom myself. Poor Denethor neutral

Yeah, especially because this happened when he was young, too. If you recall, Aragorn, in the guise of Thorongil, did many great feats in Ecthelion's service and won the highest praise of the Gondorians, making Denethor second best to a man with unknown origin and lineage, even in the eyes of his father and people.

Yes, I bet he had to go through alot of therapy because of that 3nodding  

[Tirno]

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Tirno

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Yeah, I wouldn't want to be hiding behind the shadow of a greater man while I'm clearly capable of ruling my Kingdom myself. Poor Denethor neutral

Yeah, especially because this happened when he was young, too. If you recall, Aragorn, in the guise of Thorongil, did many great feats in Ecthelion's service and won the highest praise of the Gondorians, making Denethor second best to a man with unknown origin and lineage, even in the eyes of his father and people.

Yes, I bet he had to go through alot of therapy because of that 3nodding

From the look of things, he never got that much-needed, good therapy.  

[Born On The FM Waves]

What if Bilbo never found The Ring? Or what if Tolkien Himself was never born and didn't write his books, we wouldn't be here discussing these things, would we?  

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baby_buu

What if Bilbo never found The Ring? Or what if Tolkien Himself was never born and didn't write his books, we wouldn't be here discussing these things, would we?

But that is like asking "What if we were never created?" or "What if the computer was never invented?" But I see what you mean, and it looks liek you answered your own question.

As for your first question, Bilbo may not have successfully escaped the cave and possibly died which means that the Battle of the Five Armies may not have gone as it did. Smaug may still exist and Bard would not become King of Dale. Frodo would not be the ring bearer and Gollum would keep the ring until Sauron finds it and sends his wraiths to get it. Gollum would probably be killed, the ring returned to Sauron, and Middle-Earth doomed. There 3nodding  

[Born On The FM Waves]

Yep that works.