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[Biohazard EXTREME]

The Labyrinthian

Yes, because it's an RPG in the traditional sense. Unlike Link, who has a name and gender, your character has no set name, gender, and no set role. So you choose if you want your character to be a rogue, warrior, ect. And I dunno, make up a name in your head for him/her...Where as Link has a set name, is a male, and since he can't choose classes, has a set role...So you aren't really getting involved in the roleplaying there, unlike Diablo's D&D like setup. Which is why I consider games like Diablo similar to WoW and D&D: RPGs in the traditional sense...Where the character really is yours, unlike Cloud and Aya...

There are a lot of games with a town/dungeon setup that are not considered to be RPGs...Like my favorite game of all time, Mystical Ninja starring Goemon...

Wait... Unlike Cloud and Aya? Are you saying that FF7 isn't an RPG?

Look, you're saying it like I'm the first person in history to say that Zelda is an RPG. Every article I read calls Zelda an RPG.

Even, Wikipedia says, "The gameplay consists of a mixture of action, adventure, puzzle solving, and role-playing."

"GameSpot follows Link through the history of one of the greatest RPG series' of all time, Zelda."
-GameSpot

"The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is without a doubt one of the most anticipated games, let alone RPGs, to date."
-RPG Site

"There are a million and one different things to praise about the game... ...the dow-eyed hero and the childish quest which invented a lot of RPG clichés"
-Eurogamer on LoZ: A Link to the Past

Countless other articles classify Zelda as an RPG. It may not be a conventional RPG like we're all used to, but hey, maybe that's what makes Zelda so unique. But nevertheless, as far as I'm concerned, whenever I play Zelda, the character isn't named Link, the character is named after me (as with all the RPGs that let me do that), so therefore, I'm playing the role. It's an RPG.  

[King of Paradise]

Thee Stranger

@Deadite:

PSN: Thee_Stranger
Wii: 0030 7531 8736 7904

Thanks. What Wii games do you play online?  

[Canas Renvall]

@Deadite (and anyone else with PSN, for that matter): Canas_Renvall

I'll get my Wii code tomorrow, I'm hella busy. I can't ******** wait for the weekend... If someone wakes me up before noon on Saturday they will die. I've been so tired this entire week. x_X So, with that happy thought, I'm off once again. Sorry I've been so... not here, but I promise to be a little more active on the weekend! biggrin  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

The Labyrinthian

Yes, because it's an RPG in the traditional sense. Unlike Link, who has a name and gender, your character has no set name, gender, and no set role. So you choose if you want your character to be a rogue, warrior, ect. And I dunno, make up a name in your head for him/her...Where as Link has a set name, is a male, and since he can't choose classes, has a set role...So you aren't really getting involved in the roleplaying there, unlike Diablo's D&D like setup. Which is why I consider games like Diablo similar to WoW and D&D: RPGs in the traditional sense...Where the character really is yours, unlike Cloud and Aya...

There are a lot of games with a town/dungeon setup that are not considered to be RPGs...Like my favorite game of all time, Mystical Ninja starring Goemon...

Wait... Unlike Cloud and Aya? Are you saying that FF7 isn't an RPG?

Look, you're saying it like I'm the first person in history to say that Zelda is an RPG. Every article I read calls Zelda an RPG.

Even, Wikipedia says, "The gameplay consists of a mixture of action, adventure, puzzle solving, and role-playing."

"GameSpot follows Link through the history of one of the greatest RPG series' of all time, Zelda."
-GameSpot

"The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is without a doubt one of the most anticipated games, let alone RPGs, to date."
-RPG Site

"There are a million and one different things to praise about the game... ...the dow-eyed hero and the childish quest which invented a lot of RPG clichés"
-Eurogamer on LoZ: A Link to the Past

Countless other articles classify Zelda as an RPG. It may not be a conventional RPG like we're all used to, but hey, maybe that's what makes Zelda so unique. But nevertheless, as far as I'm concerned, whenever I play Zelda, the character isn't named Link, the character is named after me (as with all the RPGs that let me do that), so therefore, I'm playing the role. It's an RPG.

Wait, what? By saying unlike Cloud and Aya, I'm saying that they aren't RPGs in the traditional sense. Since they have leveling systems, though, they are still deemed as such.

But many people view those games an RPG in the traditional sense just because you get to name those characters something else then thier offical names. It shouldn't be viewed that way, because other then naming those characters, you have no control over any other apsect of them, be it from thier personailty to how they decide to play a part in the story. How people like you believe your playing a role playing game by naming a character you had no help in creating is beyond me, especially if that character has an official name.

I'm not saying you're the first.

Even, Wikipedia says, "The Legend of Zelda​ (ゼルダの伝説, Zeruda no Densetsu?) is a high fantasy action-adventure video game series created by game designers Shigeru Miyamoto and Takashi Tezuka and developed and published by Nintendo."

Are you telling me that an entire community of well-informants and professionals are all wrong?

Just because it has elements of a genre doesn't mean it is that genre. That being said, a leveling system is an exception to the case of what defines an RPG.

Like I said before, this is my view. In a world in which you can interperet anything to anyway you want it to be, I'm interpereting it logically. The Legend of Zelda series has never utlized a leveing system (Except with TAoL, which, like I said before, I do consider to be an RPG) and it's allowance of letting you give Link a different name is a shallow concept that has deluded people into thinking it is an RPG. Go ahead, feed me reviews that state the opposite of what I believe in (And I bet you they only say RPG because of the shallow name concept), but as far I'm concerned, they can all go to hell. That does not convince me of anything. To believe that Zelda is an RPG by unconventional means contradicts closely relating articles, such as if that game is an RPG because of the Town/Dungeon aesthetic, then countless other clearly stated non-RPGs should be considered RPGs.

But if that argument is not good enough for you, then I'm wrong, and you're right. Happy? Can we drop this now?

EDIT: Thanks Canas.  

[ElenaMason]

anyway.........  

[King of Paradise]

SaintChaos

anyway.........

...Anyway what?  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Well, maybe those other games SHOULD be deemed RPGs. I dunno. I haven't played that Goemon game you spoke of. But it's entirely possible that if I did play it, I'd say, "This feels like an RPG."
Heck, even Primal felt a bit like an RPG.

But hold on a sec. You keep talking about the fact that Cloud and Aya and such characters have personalities which doesn't make them RPG heroes in a traditional sense.
But Link has never had a set personality. In fact, Link is a silent hero, and aside from the odd facial reactions in the later games, we can't possibly know what he's like. Which makes him all the more like an RPG hero in a traditional sense.

But how is naming your hero any less shallow than leveling up? Certain games, such as Onimusha, Devil May Cry and even God of War have you upgrade and level up your weapons, and earn new moves using an experience based system. They might not go right out and say, "EXP Gained" but those red souls you collect in Onimusha, or God of War, and the... Orbs, was it? In Devil May Cry... That's EXP for all intents and purposes.
And heck, even games like Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks and Heavenly Sword use Experience based skill increase system. That does not make them RPGs.

So whether you consider Zelda an RPG or not, you can't say that every RPG MUST have a leveling system. Or an undefined hero without a persnoality. Or a multi-tiered weapon upgrade system (even though I insist that RE4 is closer to an RPG than to Survival Horror).


On another note, Sony might be a slacker at some things every once in a while, but the one game that I've been waiting for FOREVER on PSP, the one game that should've been ther from day 1, and I can't believe they overlooked it for this long... The one game that I think has been on pretty much every successful handheld, and SHOULD be on every handheld until the end of time is finally coming as a PSP downloadable on the PlayStation Network. That's right. TETRIS!  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Well, maybe those other games SHOULD be deemed RPGs. I dunno. I haven't played that Goemon game you spoke of. But it's entirely possible that if I did play it, I'd say, "This feels like an RPG."
Heck, even Primal felt a bit like an RPG.

But hold on a sec. You keep talking about the fact that Cloud and Aya and such characters have personalities which doesn't make them RPG heroes in a traditional sense.
But Link has never had a set personality. In fact, Link is a silent hero, and aside from the odd facial reactions in the later games, we can't possibly know what he's like. Which makes him all the more like an RPG hero in a traditional sense.

But how is naming your hero any less shallow than leveling up? Certain games, such as Onimusha, Devil May Cry and even God of War have you upgrade and level up your weapons, and earn new moves using an experience based system. They might not go right out and say, "EXP Gained" but those red souls you collect in Onimusha, or God of War, and the... Orbs, was it? In Devil May Cry... That's EXP for all intents and purposes.
And heck, even games like Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks and Heavenly Sword use Experience based skill increase system. That does not make them RPGs.

So whether you consider Zelda an RPG or not, you can't say that every RPG MUST have a leveling system. Or an undefined hero without a persnoality. Or a multi-tiered weapon upgrade system (even though I insist that RE4 is closer to an RPG than to Survival Horror).


On another note, Sony might be a slacker at some things every once in a while, but the one game that I've been waiting for FOREVER on PSP, the one game that should've been ther from day 1, and I can't believe they overlooked it for this long... The one game that I think has been on pretty much every successful handheld, and SHOULD be on every handheld until the end of time is finally coming as a PSP downloadable on the PlayStation Network. That's right. TETRIS!

Well, we got our points out, but one thing I must add.

I think that a game being labeled as an RPG because of a leveling system is actually waaaaay more shallow then the whole name thing. Especially since gaining levels has nothing to do with role-playing. Yet, for whatever reason, someone decided that these level gainers should be considered RPGs...But, as long as they are being labeled as such, I will go with it...

I never said every RPG must have a level system. In fact, did I not just agree that diablo is a role playing game in which you do not level up?

Basically, a leveling system is one of the two main features that can make up an RPG, but is not always necessary (Since there is another main feature, that being actual role-playing).  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Well, again, you're saying one of two main features. A traditional RPG in its 100% definition has way more than two key features. And I probably can't even list everything that would apply.
But the main reason I consider Zelda an RPG, and one thing that I usually classify RPGs by is, like I said, the town and dungeon system, but more importantly the town system, without even the dungeon aspect of it.
I think if a game largely focuses on you going to various towns talking to various people, some of who just spit irrelevant one liners at you, whereas others give you quests and tell you things relevant to the main quest if there is one. That classifies an RPG, and Zelda is heavy into that. It's not ALL that makes an RPG, but to me that's a key aspect of it.
And yes, by that definition, I do think that Castlevania 2 is an RPG.

The leveling system is used, for me, to link other games to RPGs. Like, Tactical RPGs, although don't involve towns or dungeons at all, and oftentimes, the main heroes already have names and personalities. But they do level up and they do have multi-tiered equipment level. And I think that's what makes them Tactical RPGs like Disgaea as opposed to Turn-Based Strategy games like Advance Wars.



On another note. I just finished Rule of Rose. And I gotta say, of all the games I've ever beaten, this one's got the biggest, "WTF did I just witness" factor to it. I mean, it puts ambiguity on another level. But I think the developers wanted that, they wanted people to CONTEMPLATE THE MYSTERY instead of giving everything to us on a silver platter like, oh I dunno... Certain other comany we know, rhymes with "Crap Bomb."

Anyway, all in all, an awesome game, I really enjoyed it and recommend it. It's a mix of Survival-Horror and Adventure (traditional definition of adventure classifies mystery solvers such as Still Life and Myst). It might remind you of Haunting Ground, being that you play as a teenage girl with her dog companion. But the similarities end there. This was one of the most disturbing games I've ever seen, and so much in it just made me uncomfortable in that horror way. There's scary, there's creepy, and there's this. It's just awesome. The combat mechanics could use a little polish, but the fights aren't even that tough, and aren't the focus of the game.

EDIT:
Okay, I did a little bit of reading. Basically, some descriptions that I should've checked during the last chapter of Rule of Rose, that I didn't cause I'm a lazy a**. Anyway, the items you check provide comments on behalf of the protagonist, explaining things... And the storyline isn't as ambiguous as all that. But it is incredibly surreal and just... Overall really sad. Man, I gotta say, Rule of Rose is one game I'm really glad I got around to finishing. Considering how many games I've bought in my lifetime, that I never ended up finishing...  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Well, again, you're saying one of two main features. A traditional RPG in its 100% definition has way more than two key features. And I probably can't even list everything that would apply.
But the main reason I consider Zelda an RPG, and one thing that I usually classify RPGs by is, like I said, the town and dungeon system, but more importantly the town system, without even the dungeon aspect of it.
I think if a game largely focuses on you going to various towns talking to various people, some of who just spit irrelevant one liners at you, whereas others give you quests and tell you things relevant to the main quest if there is one. That classifies an RPG, and Zelda is heavy into that. It's not ALL that makes an RPG, but to me that's a key aspect of it.
And yes, by that definition, I do think that Castlevania 2 is an RPG.

The leveling system is used, for me, to link other games to RPGs. Like, Tactical RPGs, although don't involve towns or dungeons at all, and oftentimes, the main heroes already have names and personalities. But they do level up and they do have multi-tiered equipment level. And I think that's what makes them Tactical RPGs like Disgaea as opposed to Turn-Based Strategy games like Advance Wars.



On another note. I just finished Rule of Rose. And I gotta say, of all the games I've ever beaten, this one's got the biggest, "WTF did I just witness" factor to it. I mean, it puts ambiguity on another level. But I think the developers wanted that, they wanted people to CONTEMPLATE THE MYSTERY instead of giving everything to us on a silver platter like, oh I dunno... Certain other comany we know, rhymes with "Crap Bomb."

Anyway, all in all, an awesome game, I really enjoyed it and recommend it. It's a mix of Survival-Horror and Adventure (traditional definition of adventure classifies mystery solvers such as Still Life and Myst). It might remind you of Haunting Ground, being that you play as a teenage girl with her dog companion. But the similarities end there. This was one of the most disturbing games I've ever seen, and so much in it just made me uncomfortable in that horror way. There's scary, there's creepy, and there's this. It's just awesome. The combat mechanics could use a little polish, but the fights aren't even that tough, and aren't the focus of the game.

EDIT:
Okay, I did a little bit of reading. Basically, some descriptions that I should've checked during the last chapter of Rule of Rose, that I didn't cause I'm a lazy a**. Anyway, the items you check provide comments on behalf of the protagonist, explaining things... And the storyline isn't as ambiguous as all that. But it is incredibly surreal and just... Overall really sad. Man, I gotta say, Rule of Rose is one game I'm really glad I got around to finishing. Considering how many games I've bought in my lifetime, that I never ended up finishing...

I agree. They're are a lot of concepts that make up a traditional RPG. But they do not apply to today's definition. If a town/dungeon aspect (Or even just the town aspect) was enough to be another major factor to determing an RPG, then there would be a lot more games on the market labeled as RPGs. But since there is not, I have to surmise that that particuar notion is not recogonized by the public, which is why I don't consider a town/dungeon system an indication of an RPG.

Where I got the two main features theory was just from a careful study of modern day considerations.

Then again, maybe people have no clue where the thin line is that determines what is and what is not an RPG. I'm just trying to reason logically about how contradictory the entire format is...  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Okay, but the whole thing is... You say two main features being Leveling up and Role playing... But what exactly entails roleplayng.
Outside of gaming, when you're role playing, either you're playing a tabletop RPG like Dungeons and Dragons...
Or, your girlfriend dresses up as a schoolgirl, you dress up as a teacher... And yeah. Fun ensues.

But strictly speaking, role playing is when you assume a role of another character. Which is like, every single video game out there. So it's not like Role Playing is defined in a literal term. Otherwise all games with characters in them would be RPGs.
But that's like saying, all music conveys emotion, therefore all music is Emo music. The term isn't to be taken literally.
So then, what is role playing in gaming standards?
See, to me, that's just what it is. It's being a character who goes around interacting with other characters. Interacting by means other than fighting, I mean. Because back in the day, usually what you had was the hero. And any other character on the screen either tried to kill you, or tried to help you kill the bad guys. And then you had games like Zelda 2, Castlevania 2, Final Fantasy, which had towns and characters that you walk around and talk to, who provide you with information.
So, sure, maybe Zelda would be defined as an RPG by older standards only, but then, it's like you said, defining an RPG purely by leveling up is pretty shallow. But then you play games like Knigdom Hearts or Final Fantasy 12, they're still considered RPGs, even though you can't name your character, the characters all have personalities and unchangable classes, and the combat is hack and slash.

So then, why is FF12 considered an RPG?  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Okay, but the whole thing is... You say two main features being Leveling up and Role playing... But what exactly entails roleplayng.
Outside of gaming, when you're role playing, either you're playing a tabletop RPG like Dungeons and Dragons...
Or, your girlfriend dresses up as a schoolgirl, you dress up as a teacher... And yeah. Fun ensues.

But strictly speaking, role playing is when you assume a role of another character. Which is like, every single video game out there. So it's not like Role Playing is defined in a literal term. Otherwise all games with characters in them would be RPGs.
But that's like saying, all music conveys emotion, therefore all music is Emo music. The term isn't to be taken literally.
So then, what is role playing in gaming standards?
See, to me, that's just what it is. It's being a character who goes around interacting with other characters. Interacting by means other than fighting, I mean. Because back in the day, usually what you had was the hero. And any other character on the screen either tried to kill you, or tried to help you kill the bad guys. And then you had games like Zelda 2, Castlevania 2, Final Fantasy, which had towns and characters that you walk around and talk to, who provide you with information.
So, sure, maybe Zelda would be defined as an RPG by older standards only, but then, it's like you said, defining an RPG purely by leveling up is pretty shallow. But then you play games like Knigdom Hearts or Final Fantasy 12, they're still considered RPGs, even though you can't name your character, the characters all have personalities and unchangable classes, and the combat is hack and slash.

So then, why is FF12 considered an RPG?

Because, like I said, someone decided that leveling up should be a key feature in determining an RPG...Even if I do think it's shallow, can I argue against it? Yes. Will there be any point to that? No. For it's decidedly so.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on what type of Role-Play is considered offical by RPG standards. So here it is:

Of course it is not to be taken literal. Role-Playing is on a more personal level. Meaning, playing as a character with a set name is not considered role-playing by video game standards. But playing as a character with a changeable name, for whatever damn reason, is technically considered to be role-playing. That's how it is decided. I think that's total bs. I think to be actually role-playing, you have to be on a MUCH deeper level then just playing as a character whose name you changed to something else. I think you have to have a hand in helping to create this character for it to be truly a role-playing game, like in D&D, where you create a character from the ground up. That's why I believe that games like WoW and D&D are the only traditional RPGs in the true sense, because the character really is all yours. That's my take on it, and I honestly think that it's the most logical. But, appearently, I'm wrong...For it wasn't Link who slayed Ganon...Nay, it was Chewy14! Now that's some role-playing for ya.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Okay, but dude. Again, many places call Zelda an RPG. Many sites, in fact, probably most gaming sites will call it an RPG.
You say, "I don't consider it an RPG." Which is your opinion and it's fine, but then you say, "It's based on what OTHER people classified as an RPG." If you think it's stupid, then why follow that logic?