::Grill 13 Restaurant:: NEW Pictures on the Menu!

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

You may as well, dude. In fact, nothing Nintendo does has any merit to you. When we're to the point now where you even call the M-rated games on the Wii a ******** gimmick in itself, I'm just done with you. There's no point. It's all a ******** gimmick. Fine. I could sit here and say the customaztion in s**t like LBP and Modnation Racers is a ******** gimmick. I could easily make that ******** argument. But I don't. Because I see its mertis, and I don't just dismiss everything as a ******** gimmick.

I didn't say it was a gimmick, I said it comes off as a gimmick based on how big of a deal people make it out to be. So yeah, if someone makes a big deal about something insignificant, it can be considered a gimmick even if it's unintentional. But whatever, I guess I'm just a close minded hater.

Thee Stranger

Well, it's a not a mature rating. It's a T-rating. I know plenty of parents who take their kids to see R-rated movies. I know plenty of parents who let their kids play all the violent videogames they want. And secondly, I don't care what a game is rated. If I'm interested in a game, I'm interested in a game. Regardless of what it's rated. That's not a deciding factor in my purchases. Maybe it is for you, but not me.

Then why is it so hard to admit that Nintendo largely advertises itself as a kiddie platform?

Thee Stranger

Everyone goes crazy regardless. People went crazy over Mortal Kombat. That was on Genesis and SNES. I guess Mortal Kombat's whole blood and Fatality thing was just some stupid gimmick, and there was nothing cool or anything of merit about it at all that anybody should like. People went crazy over GTA games. Those were on PS2. I guess GTA and its whole crime simulator-ness was just another gimmick. ******** gimmicks. Just like any M-rated game on Wii is a gimmick. It's all just sucky gimmick bullshit.

Well, you're largely twisting my words there. But yeah, if we lived in the early 1990s right now, I would say, "What the ******** is the big deal with people going crazy over Mortal Kombat being violent? It has blood, which is more realistic than the games without it. People should stop complaining." And it's the same thing I said about GTA back when Hilary Clinton was menopausing all over it, and that started out over a sex scene. But you know what, those cases had no presedence, it was the first time something like that came to light, and it was on some major games. I mean, MK was huge in the early 90's, and GTA was huge in the early 2000s, still is. So what is the big deal about the violence in Mad World (which is pretty much a cult game anyway)? What's so controversial that we haven't seen already?

Thee Stranger

And anything on the Wii just sucks d**k. Because it's a gimmick. And the PS3 -- just suck its d**k. No matter what it does. Even if it does the same s**t that you'll criticise any other console for. Maybe that's a little harsh, but that's how you come off to me. You can go ahead and tell me I suck Nintendo's d**k, but as much as I bash Sony, when its due, I also give it its props, when its due. I don't just take the piss out of EVERYTHING you could possibly bring up.

Well, I'm sorry to piss on your parade. But I honestly don't see why the Wii is so successful beyond its initial release. I don't see why it was such a big bounce back for Nintendo. Obviously Nintendo knows that they're doing, and knows how to advertise and what the general public wants. But I guess I don't fall into that category.

Thee Stranger

The point I'm making is that you are very critical of Nintendo's family-friendliness

I'm not really. It is what it is. Nintendo is selling itself as a family platform and therefore has a vast majority surplus of kiddie games. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But it is true.

Thee Stranger

and and Microsoft's 360 failure rate, but yet you experienced a very similar problem with your PS3.

Well, my PS3 breaking down doesn't spike PS3's failure rate to 30%. No, I wasn't happy about it. And yes, I've encountered numerous other people who had the same problem. And yes, Sony messed up big time on that one. The difference between that and the 360 is that with 360, Microsoft built a faulty machine right from the start. There's a reason why I got a new PS3 Slim and didn't just repair my old one. Because I know the new ones won't overheat the same way, because they're built differently. And yes, I'm sure that Microsoft did something to ensure that its failure rate isn't at 30% anymore, but I STILL hear my friends talking about their 360's breaking down, even the ones they bought recently, after the red ring crisis. So yeah, I will say that Xbox 360 is a shitty piece of hardware overall. I'm not saying it's a bad system per se. It's got good framework, great online service (not that I care about the online aspect of gaming much anyway), and yes, lots of games. But the rate at which the 360's are failing is simply the reason why I won't go out of my way to get one.
I mean, I can just as easily say Windows Vista is a piece of s**t. Which it is. I have issues with Microsoft, sure, but not as a gaming company, but as an electronics company overall. Console wars have nothing to do with it.

Thee Stranger

Well, that's all well and good. It doesn't change anything, though. The fact was, the PS2 had a monopoly on most all of the big exclusives last gen. Most cases being because Sony paid for that exclusivity. Like the GTA series. Also, because the PS2 was the highest-selling console with the largest userbase, so it made more financial sense to bring your game there. Which is why exclusive s**t like RE4 eventually went to the PS2 as well. Do I blame people for buying a PS2 for all the great games and features it had? ******** no. Not when it had all the great games at least. What choice did anybody have, really? But it didn't start out that way. And by no means should it have killed the Dreamcast when it first launched. Because in terms of games, the Dreamcast was a ten times better system than the PS2 at launch. It even looked better in most cases for ******** sake.

I dunno man, I still remember games like Kinetica, which looked better than anything I've seen on the Dreamcast. Either way, the problem with the Dreamcast was that it was an in-between generation. It was significantly better looking than PS1 and N64, but at the same time, it still used CDs, which gave it a lot of memory limitations comparing to the PS2. Hell, when the Dreamcast originally came out, I didn't even know that PS2 was in the works. And yes, I wanted a Dreamcast, but I already had an N64, and choosing between Dreamcast and PS1, I chose the PS1 because at the time it already boasted a crapton of games. And I was well into enjoying most of those games, catching up on my Final Fantasies, Resident Evils, Metal Gear, etc. when the PS2 came out. And at that point, I was so into my PS1, and all the games for it that I practically forgot that the Dreamcast existed. I mean, beyond Mortal Kombat Gold and RE: Code Veronica, there wasn't really anything I wanted on the Dreamcast, and then I found out that Code Veronica was coming to the PS2, and FFX was coming (which was in mid-2001, so it was still fairly early in PS2's life) and that pretty much sealed the deal.
Like I said, what it boils down to is that at Dreamcast's launch, people weren't ready to move onto the next big thing yet. And by the time they were, the PS2 release date was already fast approaching and it was the next big thing. That's what it seemed like to me from personal experience and observing people around me.

Thee Stranger

Oh Jesus. No, I didn't say you had denounce Sony over it. And yes, you did tell me the issue. But that's all you said. That in itself is not being critical. That is just stating the issue. The statement "the 360 has a high failure rate" isn't critical in itself.

Yeah, but it's not the system's fault. It's not a living organism, you can't just say. "The 360 has high failure rate, but don't judge it, it was just born that way." It is a reflection on the company that makes it. And I mean, it wasn't just a launch issue, the 360 came out in 2005, and yeah, if they messed up they messed up, but people were still complaining about the RROD well into 2008, and to a lesser extent, even still.

Thee Stranger

"The new firmware update makes the older PS3 models run hotter, and screws up the Blu-ray drive... well, thanks a lot Sony. Way to support your early adopters who bought your system at the $600 launch price before anyone else would. Way to think this through and cover all your bases" -- that would be a critical statement.

Well, it's not like Sony's listening. But yes, I was pissed... Not even because they screwed up, but because they didn't even bother addressing it.
But if you haven't noticed, outside of debates, I don't exactly go out of my way to criticize Nintendo or Microsoft either, unless someone else brings it up. I simply laid out the facts. And what, am I supposed to be sorry that no one else in the guild had their PS3 break down so that I could have a rant session with them?
But out of the people I personally know, I was the only one who encountered that problem, so it's not exactly like I had anyone to share my troubles with.
Or vice versa, for example, if someone came in here saying, "Did you check out the new firmware? It's awesome, and my games run faster..." THEN I would've said, "That firmware broke my ******** PS3, so it was an unnecessary piece of s**t." But at the time, it was simply a matter of, "My beloved console is broken. I'm sad."

Thee Stranger

The statement "The DSi adds a camera and online features, but scraps the Gameboy Advance compatablity present in the older models" isn't a critical statement in itself. Saying that the camera is a pointless feature, which I have said here in the past, is a critical statment. And that Nintendo shouldn't have taken the backwards compatabilty out of the newer models is also a critical statement. And if you read a few pages back, I still rip the camera, saying it's a cheap piece of s**t, but mention a fun free downloadable game that I enjoyed that redeemed it somewhat. I do think it's bullshit that Nintendo shits out so many different models of the DS within a few months of each other. I know I'd be pretty pissed and feeling kind of burned if I just went out and bought the DSi, and then Nintendo released the XL just a couple months later.

Yeah, but you don't HAVE to upgrade. I said this right from the beginning, as soon as the DSi came out, I said, "If Nintendo starts making games that can be played ONLY on the DSi, and not on the DS Lite or the original DS, then they'd be isolating many people, and it could hurt them."
Just like with the PSP Go. It's pretty unnecessary, I think, but people who own the older versions of the PSP can still play the downloadable games. And so far, pretty much all the titles I see online are available in UMD form, and even a few that I didn't see online are available in the UMD form. So it's not hurting anyone. Just like the DSi isn't really hurting the people who already own the DS Lite.
Now, once Sony announces the PSP2, and unless it's like an amazing new machine that has rumble, two analog sticks and the graphics equivalent to HIGH END PS2 games or better, then yes, it will be unnecessary, and these new PSP2 games would isolate the original PSP owners. But let's not get into the hypotheticals.

Thee Stranger

Now. You just said that Sony was at fault for this, so now you have been critical of them. But before, nothing critical was said of Sony or the issue itself. At least not that I ever recall. You just basically told me what was going on. By the way... my PS3 is fine. At least, so far. The only game that ever locks up is Fallout 3, but that's a common issue.

Like I said, I'm starting to think that adding a bigger hard drive might've exacerbated the issue, since a 250 gig HDD would probably run hotter than a 60 gig of the same size.

Thee Stranger

Well, that's great. Kinda like how 360 owners are simply happy to just be able play their games again. Like I said, three year warranty now. Free of charge. So if you like the 360 games enough, you're gonna put up with some bullshit every now and then, like your console bricking on you. I guess they're just weak men who need their games, too. And do you think the PS3 would be nearly as good as it is without 360? Do you think PSN would be anything it is today without Xbox Live? ********. No.

Well, like I said, it's a barrier to me. When I bought my PS3 originally, I didn't think, "Well, there's always a chance it's gonna break down, but no big deal I'll replace it." Which is what I would be thinking if I was to buy a 360.
And yes, I know that Xbox has the superior online system and whatnot. But again, first of all, I don't really care about online gaming. As for online shopping, and add-ons and whatnot. Well, I think you will agree that it's only leading to the inevitable abolishing of disc based games. And I don't think it's a good thing. I'm not saying that Microsoft is solely responsible for this... Actually, I think Steam would be the biggest promoter of this trend. Either way, it's convenient now, but I can't say I'm looking forward to the next generation of possibly all-downloadable games, with no disc based content whatsoever. And honestly, as of right now, I won't buy into it. Maybe I'll change my mind later, but if PS4/Xbox720/Wiii came out today and it was all disc based, and they said, "This is the future of gaming, get used to it. I'd quit. I'd keep what I got, but I wouldn't invest into anything else.

Thee Stranger

lol, I'm really not gonna argue who has better rumbleness. Both the Gamecube and Wii's rumble work fine.

They're functional, I'm just saying they don't rumble as hard. Especially the GameCube, the rumble is pretty weak.

Thee Stranger

It doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't HAVE the rumble, to begin with, if Nintendo hadn't pioneered it. I'm not gonna argue that Sony hasn't improved on some Nintendo s**t. I think the better example would be the dual analog. Yes, that was an improvement over the N64 controller, and improved the way that 3D games played. I'd say that is Sony's single greatest contribution to gaming itself. And yes, everyone has dual analog now.

Frankly, I think Sony could've ripped off even more. In terms of analog controllers, what I really like about the N64 and NGC analog sticks is the hard corners, so I know when I'm pushing exactly left, exactly down or exactly diagonally. Not having that messes me up quite a lot, especially in first person controlled Survival Horror games. Which is why I still play PS1 and PS2 RE games with the D-Pad. Which is cool, I think D-Pad isn't getting enough love lately. I miss it.

Thee Stranger

It's the fact that Sony just rips all of Nintendo's s**t, and then bashes Nintendo all the while.

And Pepsi bashes coke in its commercials. And Apple bashes PCs in Mac commercials. A smear campagin doesn't change the quality of the product.

Thee Stranger

Could you imagine what the gaming industry would be like if Nintendo just went out of business or left, like so many Sony fanboys would love to see? It'd probably suck pretty ******** hard.

Well, you know I don't really give a crap about motion controls. So as far as I'm concerned, if gameplay innovation came to a halt, I wouldn't care. I'm happy with the way games are played, or were played on the PS2 even. PS3 has better graphics, and I honestly don't give a s**t about the people who say, "Well, improving the graphics doesn't make it a next generation. It's improving the GAMEPLAY that matters, and the Wii is the only console with the true next-gen gameplay." I don't care. Like I said, I saw no need for a new type of controller, yet graphical improvements are always welcome in my book. Bottom line is, if the PS3 is the last generation of consoles ever, and it didn't have Move coming out for it, I'd still be happy with that.

Thee Stranger

Could you imagine what the gaming industry would be like if if Nintendo was never around to begin with? It probably wouldn't even exist today. At least not console gaming. The PlayStation sure as ******** wouldn't be around. Because Nintendo was the soul reason Sony was ever involved in the gaming industry to begin with. And would it be as good without Sony? No, it wouldn't.

Well, who knows? I mean, Nintendo didn't invent video games, and it wasn't the first console. So you can't really say that. Sure, maybe we'd still be using Joysticks, but Nintendo isn't God of Gaming the creator.

Thee Stranger

So keep bitching about how Mario Kart sold a bajillion copies.

Well, quite frankly, if ModNation Racers or LBP sold 8 million copies, I'd still be saying, "Why?"  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

FIRST Nintendo isn't promoting the M-rated games enough, and THEN they're making too big a deal out of them. So which is it? What's the problem? Either way, I can't win. And either way, Nintendo still sucks. And either way, it's pointless arguing with you.

Like I said, it could always be the journalists that make it a big deal. But that's who the announcements come through, for most games, the console company doesn't go, "Here's the third party game that's gonna be out," it's usually just an announcement that journalists on Gamespot and IGN and 1UP end up distributing. And it's always like, "This M-Rated game" blah blah blah, or in the case of Conduit I remember reading things like, "Finally, a serious, third party, M-Rated first person shooter on the Wii that's actually gonna be good."

Thee Stranger

- I don't think I ever denied that, thank you very much. And I never denied that Nintendo developers mainly develop family-oriented games. And no, I don't find that disgusting, because they're good games. AND there is still a pretty good handful of third-party M-rated games. And some of them, are pretty ******** good. It's unfortunate that they sold like s**t, but that wasn't because of ME. I bought most all of that s**t, and enjoyed it. So why didn't it sell well? I don't know. You can say it's because of the way the Wii is marketed and the main demographic it appeals to, but a lot M-rated s**t also sold like s**t on Gamecube. So maybe it's Nintendo's main demographic of hardcore gamers who don't buy anything for their Nintendo consoles BUT the first party Nintendo s**t. I don't know. And I don't care. Because even though s**t like Eternal Darkness sold like s**t on the 'Cube, that didn't stop me from enjoying it, and it didn't stop M-rated games from coming to the Wii. Even though MadWorld sold like s**t, I still really like that game, the PS3 doesn't have it, and the new M-rated Silent Hill game still came out on the Wii, and did fairly well. The point I try to make, is that those games ARE there. So it isn't PURELY kiddie. Even though people such as yourself like to dismiss it as such.

Like I said, I'm not saying that it's a purely kiddie platform, I'm just saying there's a deficit of M-Rated titles. But that doesn't even matter. The issue isn't with the rating, the issue is with the casual market. I think there aren't enough good games on the Wii that have serious, deep storyline. And when I say serious, I mean ones that the developers actually take seriously and take the time to develop the characters, and hire good voice actors. And again, i'm not sayin that there aren't games like that at all, I'm just saying there isn't enough. Not for me, anyway. Dude, any reasons I might list that criticize Nintendo or Microsoft, or what have you, are simply reasons why I don't own it. If they're not barriers for you, then why does it matter?

Thee Stranger

- Haha. Yes, we never had violent, gory videogames before Mortal Kombat came around. Try Immortal for the Genesis. That's years before Mortal Kombat. We didn't have Hilter's head exploding in Bionic Commando for NES, either.

But those games weren't world-wide phenomena, they weren't massive hits that naturally would get the media attention the way MK was. And like I said, I still don't see what the big deal was, and why people protested.
Also, games like, say Bionic Commando, I played it... And to see Hitler's head explode at the end would require that you actually GOT to the end, and I had a hard time getting to the end in the first place at my age. If I played it in my childhood, I probably wouldn't have been able to beat it. With Mortal Kombat violence is instant, even without fatalities, there's still massive amounts of blood right from the start. And it was flashy and really in your face.

Thee Stranger

And we never had GTA games before GTA3 came around and started all the controversy. So why was there a big stink? Because they were POPULAR. And yes, MadWorld was being aggressively advertised, which is why and how people caught on to it. And since it flopped, it failed to create a huge buzz, and pretty much died out as quickly as it started. Because it wasn't a huge game. Mortal Kombat and GTA were. Simple as that. You think no one would have protested MadWorld if it was a PS3 exclusive? Think again. It was banned in certain countries. And I don't think that has anything to do with the particular platform it happened to be on. And so was House of the Dead: Overkill. Overkill probably has more language than any PS3 game I've EVER played. It's also one of the goriest games I've ever played. And at the end, this dude actually crawls back inside his gigantic, mutated, dead mother's v****a. Yeah. NOT FOR KIDS. Oh, but they would have sold better on the PS3, right? Not necessarily. Seeing as the PS3 is the lowest-selling console with the lowest attach rate.

Well, I don't know what House of the Dead's excuse is, then. Sounds like a rockin good time. And if I was a big House of the Dead fan, yes, I'd probably own a Wii for a game like that. Like I used to be a huge fan of Resident Evil, and I bought the wii just for Umbrella Chronicles, but as you know, it severely disappointed me, and was one of the two direct causes of me abandoning the franchise in the first place.

Thee Stranger

- Well, I hate to piss on your parade, but that's just an ignorant statement. There have been a lot of good games for the Wii this year, and there's more coming. And no, that's not like saying there's no good games coming to the PS3 this year.

I'm sure there are, but there's nothing that makes me go, "Oh man, I wish I didn't sell my Wii, that game looks so awesome." The only such case would've been Silent Hill, but luckily for me, it's not an exclusive. And like I said, there ARE 360 games that make me wish I owned one. Just not enough to actually scrounge the money to buy one.

Thee Stranger

- Yeah, you are pretty much saying that's a bad thing. I can go back and dig up all the stuff where you've pretty much said that directly in the past before, in so many words, but let's just skip that and go around full circle to what has spawned this whole ******** thing again in the first place: Mario. And how it's ridiculous that his games sell as well as they do.

The sales aspect baffled me specifically on Mario Kart, and not even so much because it's Mario, but because it's a Kart racing game. I'm just saying, it wouldn't have sold as much if it wasn't a 'Mario' game.

Thee Stranger

Because it's just Mario. It's kiddie. It's family-friendly. It's filler. Shovelware. Whatever. There's no story. Graphics suck. You don't get it. Blah, blah, blah. I'm sorry you don't get Mario, and don't understand how people can get excited about it. But that's just your opinion. Simple as that. Mario sells Wii consoles like MGS4 sold PS3s. That's just the way it is.

Again, look, all I said was that that's how I saw it, and it surprised me that you and Chase got excited over SMG2. I'm sorry that it surprised me. I'm sorry that I didn't see Mario as this big title equivalent of MGS or Final Fantasy, or Halo or whatever. I just thought Mario already had its hay day. I thought it was just filler. Obviously I was wrong, let's just leave it at that.

Thee Stranger

Dreamcast used GDs, not CDs. It did come out during an odd period, but it did sell well. And your experience is much different than mine. My experience is that as PS2 release date approached, yes, that was the next big thing and Dreamcast was now irrelvent. Right then and there. Unjustifiably so. People I knew in school all over slammed Dreamcast, saying PS2 was better. A system that wasn't even ******** out yet. And then it came out. With no games. All people did was play their PS1 games on it. And it killed the Dreamcast right there. And seeing it on display at EB, my Dreamcast had better-looking games than the PS2 launch stuff. And after all the hype about just how uber powerful this thing was going to be? Yeah, it was definitely underwhelming for me. And at the time, the Dreamcast had the better games. It launched with a ton of awesome games. The PS2 didn't have s**t. Dreamcast just didn't get a fair shake if you ask me. Due to people's blindness over the Sony brand and the hype. Sony also (purposefully, as widely speculated) didn't ship enough units to meet demand. Which got more than a few old ladies who waited 16 hours in line to get their son an ultra-hyped PS2 for Christmas shot and killed as they were leaving the store, all for their stupid ******** gaming console that didn't have s**t for games at the time, and didn't live up to its hype (at the time). Way to go, Sony.

Well, now it sounds like you ARE blaming Sony for some psychos that decided to kill innocent women over a game console. I mean, look at the Wii, when it came out, I talked to so many people who were like, "Man, I want it so bad, but I can't find it ANYWHERE" so why didn't people get killed on that one? I dunno, but it's not like it got delivered to people's homes in a securicor vehicle.

Thee Stranger

And way to go, humanity. That's the kind of business practices that really rubbed me the wrong way about the company. And yeah, I was pretty pleased to hear that when they tried to pull that same bullshit with PS3 launch, many of them were still sitting on the store shelves, collecting dust. Maybe I was still bitter about it.

Well, don't blame Sony for DEATHS. Here's the thing, it's a business. Sony did what it did... It's not like they went out and bombed fresh shipments of Dreamcasts, or advertised saying, "Our console is better than the Dreamcast" if that's what people saw, it's what they wanted to see. It's a cold hard business, and Sony got lucky on it at the time. I mean, the PS3 had a rough launch, I didn't expect Nintendo or Microsoft to go, "Well, tell people that the PS3 is still an excellent system so that more people would be inclined to own it." It's a business, and yes, the bottom line is making money.
If you wanna be bitter, blame the people, not the companies. Frankly, I think in the long run, the PS2 has been the best console ever, so far. I've played and enjoyed so many games on it, and there are still games out there that I wanna try. And yes, I owned an NES and a Genesis etc. etc. etc. And yes, they were awesome, and yes I do appreciate the roots of gaming. But that doesn't keep me from also appreciating where the modern technology is going.
It's like music, as much as I appreciate the classics like... Well, in the case of Rap let's say classic artists like Grandmaster Flash, NWA, etc. The majority of my favorite rap albums still came out after the year 2000.
And even artists like Ice Cube, who's been around since 1980s, my favorite albums of his are the more recent ones too.
Point is, yes, I appreciate old school games, and I did grow up on them, but I'm not gonna be buried in nostalgia all my life, the best games in history (to ME) are the ones I'm still playing right now. And on NES, that would pretty much be Double Dragon 2 and a handful of others, and on the Genesis, it would be Contra Hard Corps and Comix Zone. And on the PS2, it's over 50 titles.

Thee Stranger

And I didn't upgrade my DS, and wasn't going to upgrade my DS, until I broke my Lite.

That sucks. Still, if that happened to me, I'd just buy a used Lite. They're cheaper too.

Thee Stranger

And PSP Go is just pointless. There's no reason to pick it over the 3000. The 3000 can do everything the PSP Go can do and more. So yeah, that one is completely pointless if you ask me.

Although I am fairly jealous of the 16 gig hard drive that it's got. Unfortunately I do own a very decent amount of downloadable PSP games. But hey, I see people with PSP Go's, so whatever. Like I said, it doesn't bother me at all, since if I do wanna get a game on UMD, they're still selling them. Sony never did stop the support of the PSP3000.

Thee Stranger

No, Gamecube rumble was not weak.

Well, it always felt weak to me. And in Remake, there was even a delay on it. It was like, Bam. Rumble. Bam. Rumble. With most PS2 games it was a lot more tight, and you felt it a lot more, especially since there are two of them and they rumble right on your hand. And I guess most people don't bother noticing it, but I did. And it's not like it bugs me or anything when I play Remake, it's just a fact.  

[King of Paradise]

Lol. You being a gamer, Bio, are you really going to say you had the surprisingly and oddly improbable naive view of Mario being past his hay day? C'mon. Don't bs a bser. Still being the biggest icon and franchise in gaming ever, it's really hard to believe you when you say a thing like that, hehe. Final Fantasy, God of War, Metal Gear Solid, Halo, Uncharted, Modern Warfare, infinite etcs...They WISH they were all equivalent to the size of Mario; even just in namesake.

Video games are games that can have stories, but that don't need to. They're games, not books or movies. You play them first and foremost; experiencing a story comes second. And I don't need to argue that Mario appeals to more gamers gameplay wise (Which remember, comes first and foremost) than any video game franchise ever, because the facts are in the numbers. And ya wanna know what? That's a great thing. I'm glad even adults can still get into Mario, because if all adult gamers were only interested in playing games with mega violence and tits (i.e. God of War), then I would have to look at everyone as the degenerate apes that they are (Who forgot to enjoy the simple things, and rather live instictually).  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

Lol. You being a gamer, Bio, are you really going to say you had the surprisingly and oddly improbable naive view of Mario being past his hay day? C'mon. Don't bs a bser. Still being the biggest icon and franchise in gaming ever, it's really hard to believe you when you say a thing like that, hehe.

Well, yeah, he's an icon of Nintendo. Just like Bugs Bunny is an icon of WB, and Mickey Mouse is an icon of Disney. That they are, but it's not exactly like Looney Tunes are in their prime right now. And as for the Disney icons, outside of Kingdom Hearts, I don't hear anything from them anymore. It doesn't make them any less iconic. I just thought the same of Mario. He's a mascot.

Chase Me To The End

Final Fantasy, God of War, Metal Gear Solid, Halo, Uncharted, Modern Warfare, infinite etcs...They WISH they were all equivalent to the size of Mario; even just in namesake.

Well, maybe if they'd have been around as long, they would be.

Chase Me To The End

Video games are games that can have stories, but that don't need to. They're games, not books or movies. You play them first and foremost; experiencing a story comes second. And I don't need to argue that Mario appeals to more gamers gameplay wise (Which remember, comes first and foremost) than any video game franchise ever, because the facts are in the numbers. And ya wanna know what? That's a great thing. I'm glad even adults can still get into Mario, because if all adult gamers were only interested in playing games with mega violence and tits (i.e. God of War), then I would have to look at everyone as the degenerate apes that they are (Who forgot to enjoy the simple things, and rather live instictually).

Hey, it's not like Ratchet and Clank is extremely violent. It still has an excellent storyline and is one of my favorite franchises.
I'm just saying, if Nintendo was to release... Let's say the very same Mario Galaxy, and it had cutscenes with Mario interacting with the other characters, showing some cool personality, and funny dialogue along the lines of Jak & Daxter or something of the sort. If that was the case... I'd probably still be a fan.  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

Lol. You being a gamer, Bio, are you really going to say you had the surprisingly and oddly improbable naive view of Mario being past his hay day? C'mon. Don't bs a bser. Still being the biggest icon and franchise in gaming ever, it's really hard to believe you when you say a thing like that, hehe.

Well, yeah, he's an icon of Nintendo. Just like Bugs Bunny is an icon of WB, and Mickey Mouse is an icon of Disney. That they are, but it's not exactly like Looney Tunes are in their prime right now. And as for the Disney icons, outside of Kingdom Hearts, I don't hear anything from them anymore. It doesn't make them any less iconic. I just thought the same of Mario. He's a mascot.

Chase Me To The End

Final Fantasy, God of War, Metal Gear Solid, Halo, Uncharted, Modern Warfare, infinite etcs...They WISH they were all equivalent to the size of Mario; even just in namesake.

Well, maybe if they'd have been around as long, they would be.

Chase Me To The End

Video games are games that can have stories, but that don't need to. They're games, not books or movies. You play them first and foremost; experiencing a story comes second. And I don't need to argue that Mario appeals to more gamers gameplay wise (Which remember, comes first and foremost) than any video game franchise ever, because the facts are in the numbers. And ya wanna know what? That's a great thing. I'm glad even adults can still get into Mario, because if all adult gamers were only interested in playing games with mega violence and tits (i.e. God of War), then I would have to look at everyone as the degenerate apes that they are (Who forgot to enjoy the simple things, and rather live instictually).

Hey, it's not like Ratchet and Clank is extremely violent. It still has an excellent storyline and is one of my favorite franchises.
I'm just saying, if Nintendo was to release... Let's say the very same Mario Galaxy, and it had cutscenes with Mario interacting with the other characters, showing some cool personality, and funny dialogue along the lines of Jak & Daxter or something of the sort. If that was the case... I'd probably still be a fan.

Mario is an icon of gaming; The perfect representation of what he medium has to offer, in fact: virtual fun. To keep on thinking of him as just a mascot of Nintendo is kinda...naive to his presence? I know the first thing that comes to my head when I think video games is Mario. And frankly, that's how it should be.

Maybe, maybe...Woulda Coulda Shoulda. Who knows? But that wouldn't necessarily be the case, seeing as how other old school gaming icons haven't had nearly the same amount of impact as Mario, such as Pac-Man or Qbert. And plus, how could franchises like Halo or God of War even exist back then to be as long running as Mario? The answer: They couldn't. The concept of Mario games extracting fun from simplicity is what has been able to make the franchise so endearing and appealing to gamers of all ages, and w/o the headshots or decapitations. Cause God knows w/o games like Mario, the gaming community would be a savage douchebag...

Sorry, Nintendo was too busy perfecting the gameplay to give too much thought into coming up with a coinciding story. It was a smart move, because they probably realized that to have both in one game would make the heads of gamers everywhere explode.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

Mario is an icon of gaming; The perfect representation of what he medium has to offer, in fact: virtual fun. To keep on thinking of him as just a mascot of Nintendo is kinda...naive to his presence? I know the first thing that comes to my head when I think video games is Mario. And frankly, that's how it should be.

There are plenty of iconic game characters that represent games which are filled with virtual fun. And besides, today, the vast majority of video games ALSO offer dialogue, storylines, plot twists, voice talent on par with the most high budget animated films out there... And Mario doesn't represent any of those things. So as far as the overal scope of what the video game industry is today, Mario depicts only half of it.
And what video games are should be different for everyone, don't you think? Frankly, back when I lived in Russia, even though I played Super Mario Bros on the NES and loved it... I mean, aside from the actual content, we had no context on the video game industry. So I didn't know that Mario was Nintendo's poster boy. To me it was just another game. A good game, but no higher on the prestige scale than Contra, or Double Dragon, or Duck Tales. In fact, I considered SMB to be a lower end game because unlike all those other games I played and listed, in Mario the levels all looked the same, just the layout was different. I mean it had Land, Cave, Water and Castle. And the layouts of the levels were different, but visually, they were the same every stage. As opposed to the other games like the ones I listed above where there was a whole new chipset for every level. And yes, now I realize that those other games were probably made later. My point is, in Russia, Mario was never overglorified. And I don't think he should be.
I mean, your statement is like saying, "I know the first thing that comes to my head when I think of cartoons is Mickey Mouse." And yes, Mickey Mouse is a cartoon icon, and one of the first animated characters ever. But I don't think he should be associated with the media any more than... Say... Simba.

Chase Me To The End

Maybe, maybe...Woulda Coulda Shoulda. Who knows? But that wouldn't necessarily be the case, seeing as how other old school gaming icons haven't had nearly the same amount of impact as Mario, such as Pac-Man or Qbert. And plus, how could franchises like Halo or God of War even exist back then to be as long running as Mario? The answer: They couldn't. The concept of Mario games extracting fun from simplicity is what has been able to make the franchise so endearing and appealing to gamers of all ages, and w/o the headshots or decapitations. Cause God knows w/o games like Mario, the gaming community would be a savage douchebag...

Not true. The last statement I mean. There's plenty of platformers out there with excellent storylines, and craploads of minigames right within them. That's far from simplicity, but it's nowhere near 'savage' as you put it. And hell, even games like Uncharted, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, etc. Are you saying that those games' main selling point is sex or violence? No, of course not.

Chase Me To The End

Sorry, Nintendo was too busy perfecting the gameplay to give too much thought into coming up with a coinciding story. It was a smart move, because they probably realized that to have both in one game would make the heads of gamers everywhere explode.

So, are you saying that games like Star Fox, Zelda or Metroid sacrificed gameplay for storyline? No, of course not. Heck, Star Fox 64 kicked a**, and Slippy aside, it had good, memorable characters, and a compelling albeit weird storyline that kept me inttrigued. And from what I've read and heard about Star Fox on the GameCube, the storyline in that was even deeper still.
And what about Zelda? Did the storyline of Majora's Mask take away from the gameplay? No, in fact, it drove the gameplay. The idea that you only have three days to save the world, and have to rewind time... Why? Because the moon will fall. Why? Because the skull kid caused it. Why? Because Majora's Mask is a sonofabitch.
Heck, even Ocarina of Time, with its simpler storyline, still kept me compelled. Sure it doesn't have massive amounts of dialogue from Link, or big crazy plot twists (well, maybe a couple), but it was still a very interesting story, even if straight forward, and the backstories of all the races and places, all that stuff was really interesting. And added a lot to the already awesome gameplay.  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

Mario is an icon of gaming; The perfect representation of what he medium has to offer, in fact: virtual fun. To keep on thinking of him as just a mascot of Nintendo is kinda...naive to his presence? I know the first thing that comes to my head when I think video games is Mario. And frankly, that's how it should be.

There are plenty of iconic game characters that represent games which are filled with virtual fun. And besides, today, the vast majority of video games ALSO offer dialogue, storylines, plot twists, voice talent on par with the most high budget animated films out there... And Mario doesn't represent any of those things. So as far as the overal scope of what the video game industry is today, Mario depicts only half of it.
And what video games are should be different for everyone, don't you think? Frankly, back when I lived in Russia, even though I played Super Mario Bros on the NES and loved it... I mean, aside from the actual content, we had no context on the video game industry. So I didn't know that Mario was Nintendo's poster boy. To me it was just another game. A good game, but no higher on the prestige scale than Contra, or Double Dragon, or Duck Tales. In fact, I considered SMB to be a lower end game because unlike all those other games I played and listed, in Mario the levels all looked the same, just the layout was different. I mean it had Land, Cave, Water and Castle. And the layouts of the levels were different, but visually, they were the same every stage. As opposed to the other games like the ones I listed above where there was a whole new chipset for every level. And yes, now I realize that those other games were probably made later. My point is, in Russia, Mario was never overglorified. And I don't think he should be.
I mean, your statement is like saying, "I know the first thing that comes to my head when I think of cartoons is Mickey Mouse." And yes, Mickey Mouse is a cartoon icon, and one of the first animated characters ever. But I don't think he should be associated with the media any more than... Say... Simba.

Chase Me To The End

Maybe, maybe...Woulda Coulda Shoulda. Who knows? But that wouldn't necessarily be the case, seeing as how other old school gaming icons haven't had nearly the same amount of impact as Mario, such as Pac-Man or Qbert. And plus, how could franchises like Halo or God of War even exist back then to be as long running as Mario? The answer: They couldn't. The concept of Mario games extracting fun from simplicity is what has been able to make the franchise so endearing and appealing to gamers of all ages, and w/o the headshots or decapitations. Cause God knows w/o games like Mario, the gaming community would be a savage douchebag...

Not true. The last statement I mean. There's plenty of platformers out there with excellent storylines, and craploads of minigames right within them. That's far from simplicity, but it's nowhere near 'savage' as you put it. And hell, even games like Uncharted, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, etc. Are you saying that those games' main selling point is sex or violence? No, of course not.

Chase Me To The End

Sorry, Nintendo was too busy perfecting the gameplay to give too much thought into coming up with a coinciding story. It was a smart move, because they probably realized that to have both in one game would make the heads of gamers everywhere explode.

So, are you saying that games like Star Fox, Zelda or Metroid sacrificed gameplay for storyline? No, of course not. Heck, Star Fox 64 kicked a**, and Slippy aside, it had good, memorable characters, and a compelling albeit weird storyline that kept me inttrigued. And from what I've read and heard about Star Fox on the GameCube, the storyline in that was even deeper still.
And what about Zelda? Did the storyline of Majora's Mask take away from the gameplay? No, in fact, it drove the gameplay. The idea that you only have three days to save the world, and have to rewind time... Why? Because the moon will fall. Why? Because the skull kid caused it. Why? Because Majora's Mask is a sonofabitch.
Heck, even Ocarina of Time, with its simpler storyline, still kept me compelled. Sure it doesn't have massive amounts of dialogue from Link, or big crazy plot twists (well, maybe a couple), but it was still a very interesting story, even if straight forward, and the backstories of all the races and places, all that stuff was really interesting. And added a lot to the already awesome gameplay.

1. Not as iconic. Like I said before, games are first and foremost to be played. Story is second. And while although extremely fun games can offer deeper stories than SMG2's, the fact is numbers don't lie. Appearently, Mario offers the MOST virtual fun, seeing as how everyone buys the games. Even if Mario only depicts half the spectrum, he depicts the more important half anyways. And although I don't necessarily agree with the above statements, it IS hard to argue with numbers.

2. I don't think of Mickey when it comes cartoons...In all honesty, I don't know who you should think of when it comes to cartoons, but I do when it comes to video games. Because the truth is, Mario has been around longer than any of the franchises I named earlier, has sold more games than any of the franchises I named earlier, and has more of the impact on the video game industry than any of the games I named earlier. So, it's hard not to think of Mario when it comes to video games.

But living in Russia, I could only guess, was probably your biggest downfall in not realizing how overglorified Mario really is. While although because of his impact I do think he deserves to be overglorified, I guess to us Uhmerrycans numbers depict who reigns supreme. Yeehaw.

3. True, but how many of those platformers with excellent storylines and craploads of minigames could have existed in 1981 with Donkey Kong?

And what I meant by the whole savage douchebag was that w/o games LIKE Mario (And all that that implies, which means E and possibly T rated games), all we would have is games where kids would learn how to act like savages and douchebags (a.k.a. Learning how to kill for fun and learning how to t-bad your dead enemies).

Their selling points, although maybe less harmful, are still adult centric. But in all honesty, I wasn't really beefing with any of those games (I name called them earlier to make a seperate point). My main concern is with the games that DO. But yes, although it's not their selling point, Uncharted and Metal Gear Solid has the violence and sex (Appeal) that can promote my said savages.

4. But franchises like Star Fox and Zelda were built with to have a story in mind; Mario wasn't. So, who knows if a game like SMG2 would be better with a story? To put it into a different perspective, how would you know if adding a story wouldn't actually detract from the actual experience of playing the game and having fun?  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. Not as iconic. Like I said before, games are first and foremost to be played. Story is second. And while although extremely fun games can offer deeper stories than SMG2's, the fact is numbers don't lie. Appearently, Mario offers the MOST virtual fun, seeing as how everyone buys the games. Even if Mario only depicts half the spectrum, he depicts the more important half anyways. And although I don't necessarily agree with the above statements, it IS hard to argue with numbers.

Well, that's like saying that the most important part of a movie is the story. And the cinematography, acting, editing, etc. comes after. But just good story doesn't make a movie good, just like JUST good gameplay doesn't make a game good. And don't get me wrong, yes, Mario does have good graphics. And usually good music (I can't comment on SMG, but I'm sure it does). If you strip it of all those things, and just leave it pure gameplay with pixelated placeholders, no sound effects, etc. etc. It wouldn't be NEARLY as enjoyable. The point is, although gameplay is the core aspect of gaming, it takes a LOT more than just gameplay to make a truly good game. And to me, storyline (or at least narrative) plays just as important of a part as any other aspect that supplements the gameplay to make it an experience.

Chase Me To The End

2. I don't think of Mickey when it comes cartoons...In all honesty, I don't know who you should think of when it comes to cartoons, but I do when it comes to video games. Because the truth is, Mario has been around longer than any of the franchises I named earlier, has sold more games than any of the franchises I named earlier, and has more of the impact on the video game industry than any of the games I named earlier. So, it's hard not to think of Mario when it comes to video games.

Well, sales don't define my personal interests. When I think of games, I think of Solid Snake, Jill, Cloud... And yeah, Mario is on that list. And yes, he's iconic. But he doesn't define video games any more than any of those other characters. And frankly, when I hear "Video Games" I'm thinking video games. Not Solid Snake, not Jill, but rather Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, etc. It's not about a single mascot, it's about the whole experience. And Mario has never been an "experience" for me. Yes, Mario games are fun, I'm not denying that. But other games, the games that I'm a fan of now (or not so much anymore) aren't JUST fun, they also leave a huge impression on me after I beat them. Heck, even Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, when I first beat it... I gotta say, I teared up a little bit. Or with great horror games like Resident Evil or Silent Hill, when I'm done with those, I have a hard time sleeping because I'm terrified of what goes bump in the night.
But with simple fun games, yes they're very enjoyable, but at the end, it's just a, "Well, that was fun!" And it is, and it's a good game, yes. But a truly great game has to be a lot more than JUST fun.

Chase Me To The End

But living in Russia, I could only guess, was probably your biggest downfall in not realizing how overglorified Mario really is. While although because of his impact I do think he deserves to be overglorified, I guess to us Uhmerrycans numbers depict who reigns supreme. Yeehaw.

But see? Even you say, "Overglorified" which means, "Glorified too much" which, no, nobody deserves TOO much glory. Like... Some of my favorite game characters... Big Boss for example... I think is an amazing character. He's well written, well acted out, he's got a deep and interesting backstory... But I don't WORSHIP the guy. And the way you talk about Mario... Man, that's how I would talk about... I don't even know who... I guess the closest I could come to is saying that as a singer, I really look up to Freddy Mercury, and yes I think he was one of the greatest singers in history. But unless you aspire to become a plumber who saves princesses from dragons, I don't see why you look up to Mario so much.

Chase Me To The End

3. True, but how many of those platformers with excellent storylines and craploads of minigames could have existed in 1981 with Donkey Kong?

Wait, when you said simplicity, you were talking about back then? I thought you were talking about right now.

Chase Me To The End

And what I meant by the whole savage douchebag was that w/o games LIKE Mario (And all that that implies, which means E and possibly T rated games), all we would have is games where kids would learn how to act like savages and douchebags (a.k.a. Learning how to kill for fun and learning how to t-bad your dead enemies).

Umm... Well, I see a LOT of people like that now, so I don't see Mario saving the gamers. Which, don't get me wrong, the fact that Modern Warfare 2 is the highest selling game upon release in history, which I think it was reported, perplexes me even more than the Mario Kart phenomenon. I played MW2, it's just another first person shooter. It's not bad, but it's not amazing. But that's a different story entirely.
Look at me! I generally don't like Mario games. And still, I don't consider myself a douchebag who learned how to kill for fun and t-bag my dead enemies. And yes, I used to play Mario games when I was young, but not after I got my Genesis at 9, after that it was all Mortal Kombat, Streets of Rage, etc. And I turned out TV.

Chase Me To The End

Their selling points, although maybe less harmful, are still adult centric. But in all honesty, I wasn't really beefing with any of those games (I name called them earlier to make a seperate point). My main concern is with the games that DO. But yes, although it's not their selling point, Uncharted and Metal Gear Solid has the violence and sex (Appeal) that can promote my said savages.

Still. There were games before Mario. I'm sure if it wasn't Mario, we'd have another mascot to "save the kids".
Besides, any kid who has the attention span to sit through Metal Gear Solid storylines can't be a savage.

Chase Me To The End

4. But franchises like Star Fox and Zelda were built with to have a story in mind; Mario wasn't. So, who knows if a game like SMG2 would be better with a story? To put it into a different perspective, how would you know if adding a story wouldn't actually detract from the actual experience of playing the game and having fun?

Maybe it would, and maybe it wouldn't. But honestly, if they released a Mario game as I described, with cutscenes, character interactions, funny dialogue, etc. I would actually be really interested in it. Enough to at least rent it and go to my friend's to play it. Just to see how they portrayed Mario etc.... And as you can see, I don't share that same interest when it comes to Mario as it is now.
I dunno, I just really like to see how the characters relate to each other in a set artificial universe. Again, maybe it's just the actor in me. But it's that factor that made me the devoted gamer that I am today.  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

1. Not as iconic. Like I said before, games are first and foremost to be played. Story is second. And while although extremely fun games can offer deeper stories than SMG2's, the fact is numbers don't lie. Appearently, Mario offers the MOST virtual fun, seeing as how everyone buys the games. Even if Mario only depicts half the spectrum, he depicts the more important half anyways. And although I don't necessarily agree with the above statements, it IS hard to argue with numbers.

Well, that's like saying that the most important part of a movie is the story. And the cinematography, acting, editing, etc. comes after. But just good story doesn't make a movie good, just like JUST good gameplay doesn't make a game good. And don't get me wrong, yes, Mario does have good graphics. And usually good music (I can't comment on SMG, but I'm sure it does). If you strip it of all those things, and just leave it pure gameplay with pixelated placeholders, no sound effects, etc. etc. It wouldn't be NEARLY as enjoyable. The point is, although gameplay is the core aspect of gaming, it takes a LOT more than just gameplay to make a truly good game. And to me, storyline (or at least narrative) plays just as important of a part as any other aspect that supplements the gameplay to make it an experience.

Chase Me To The End

2. I don't think of Mickey when it comes cartoons...In all honesty, I don't know who you should think of when it comes to cartoons, but I do when it comes to video games. Because the truth is, Mario has been around longer than any of the franchises I named earlier, has sold more games than any of the franchises I named earlier, and has more of the impact on the video game industry than any of the games I named earlier. So, it's hard not to think of Mario when it comes to video games.

Well, sales don't define my personal interests. When I think of games, I think of Solid Snake, Jill, Cloud... And yeah, Mario is on that list. And yes, he's iconic. But he doesn't define video games any more than any of those other characters. And frankly, when I hear "Video Games" I'm thinking video games. Not Solid Snake, not Jill, but rather Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, etc. It's not about a single mascot, it's about the whole experience. And Mario has never been an "experience" for me. Yes, Mario games are fun, I'm not denying that. But other games, the games that I'm a fan of now (or not so much anymore) aren't JUST fun, they also leave a huge impression on me after I beat them. Heck, even Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, when I first beat it... I gotta say, I teared up a little bit. Or with great horror games like Resident Evil or Silent Hill, when I'm done with those, I have a hard time sleeping because I'm terrified of what goes bump in the night.
But with simple fun games, yes they're very enjoyable, but at the end, it's just a, "Well, that was fun!" And it is, and it's a good game, yes. But a truly great game has to be a lot more than JUST fun.

Chase Me To The End

But living in Russia, I could only guess, was probably your biggest downfall in not realizing how overglorified Mario really is. While although because of his impact I do think he deserves to be overglorified, I guess to us Uhmerrycans numbers depict who reigns supreme. Yeehaw.

But see? Even you say, "Overglorified" which means, "Glorified too much" which, no, nobody deserves TOO much glory. Like... Some of my favorite game characters... Big Boss for example... I think is an amazing character. He's well written, well acted out, he's got a deep and interesting backstory... But I don't WORSHIP the guy. And the way you talk about Mario... Man, that's how I would talk about... I don't even know who... I guess the closest I could come to is saying that as a singer, I really look up to Freddy Mercury, and yes I think he was one of the greatest singers in history. But unless you aspire to become a plumber who saves princesses from dragons, I don't see why you look up to Mario so much.

Chase Me To The End

3. True, but how many of those platformers with excellent storylines and craploads of minigames could have existed in 1981 with Donkey Kong?

Wait, when you said simplicity, you were talking about back then? I thought you were talking about right now.

Chase Me To The End

And what I meant by the whole savage douchebag was that w/o games LIKE Mario (And all that that implies, which means E and possibly T rated games), all we would have is games where kids would learn how to act like savages and douchebags (a.k.a. Learning how to kill for fun and learning how to t-bad your dead enemies).

Umm... Well, I see a LOT of people like that now, so I don't see Mario saving the gamers. Which, don't get me wrong, the fact that Modern Warfare 2 is the highest selling game upon release in history, which I think it was reported, perplexes me even more than the Mario Kart phenomenon. I played MW2, it's just another first person shooter. It's not bad, but it's not amazing. But that's a different story entirely.
Look at me! I generally don't like Mario games. And still, I don't consider myself a douchebag who learned how to kill for fun and t-bag my dead enemies. And yes, I used to play Mario games when I was young, but not after I got my Genesis at 9, after that it was all Mortal Kombat, Streets of Rage, etc. And I turned out TV.

Chase Me To The End

Their selling points, although maybe less harmful, are still adult centric. But in all honesty, I wasn't really beefing with any of those games (I name called them earlier to make a seperate point). My main concern is with the games that DO. But yes, although it's not their selling point, Uncharted and Metal Gear Solid has the violence and sex (Appeal) that can promote my said savages.

Still. There were games before Mario. I'm sure if it wasn't Mario, we'd have another mascot to "save the kids".
Besides, any kid who has the attention span to sit through Metal Gear Solid storylines can't be a savage.

Chase Me To The End

4. But franchises like Star Fox and Zelda were built with to have a story in mind; Mario wasn't. So, who knows if a game like SMG2 would be better with a story? To put it into a different perspective, how would you know if adding a story wouldn't actually detract from the actual experience of playing the game and having fun?

Maybe it would, and maybe it wouldn't. But honestly, if they released a Mario game as I described, with cutscenes, character interactions, funny dialogue, etc. I would actually be really interested in it. Enough to at least rent it and go to my friend's to play it. Just to see how they portrayed Mario etc.... And as you can see, I don't share that same interest when it comes to Mario as it is now.
I dunno, I just really like to see how the characters relate to each other in a set artificial universe. Again, maybe it's just the actor in me. But it's that factor that made me the devoted gamer that I am today.

...The most important part of the movie IS the story...It's the reason why you decide to watch a movie, no? It's not like I ever decided to watch a movie because of it's editing...And yes, good gameplay alone can make a good game (i.e. Tetris). And although I see your point about how other factors are important in making a game good, gameplay is still the number one factor. Unlike the seperate factors such as graphics, music, or story, if you were to dismiss gameplay, there wouldn't even be a game to play in the first place. That's pretty much the reason why I hold gameplay over everything else. I honestly don't need the music or great graphics or story to enjoy the game...Just the gameplay. Didn't I tell you this before with my thoughts on Streets of Rage?

But, it seems you live in the modern age, whereas I live in the era of all ages: The era where I can appreciate way old school games w/o a story, shitty graphics and no music, ya know? Like Mario Bros. I love Mario Bros.

~

No it doesn't. A truly great game can be truly great because it's truly great fun...Bwahaha.

~

I don't overglorify Mario. I just point out and run with the facts that he is overglorified. I do believe that he helms the best platforming franchise in existence, though, and that he also deserves immense appraisal for his impact. See, that's me pointing out the facts and running with 'em.

~

Neither do I see Mario saving the gamers. But if it weren't for games like Mario, ERRVRYBODY would be a douchebag. And even if you don't want to admit it, you are half a savage if you enjoy the violence games like God of War and Uncharted have to offer (I know I do). Hey, but that's how everybody is anyways. Just don't become a full savage or a douchebag by spending all your time playing Modern Warfare 2 and shi*. Please tell me you would at least play Mario over Modern Warfare 2...

~

Yeah, it's the actor in you. =D  

[o8Orobouros8o]

Uhm, as a fairly casual gamer, I'm going to have to say somethign everyone I know considers blasphemy. I really just don't like Mario OR Zelda. They're really boring. It's the same button in almost every Mario game. Jump...jump jump...jump. I can't stand it, it's the most boring game I've ever played. Honest to god, my actual first Mario experiance was that horrible 80's movie with Jon Leguizamo.

And @ Chase, I don't appriciate being called a savage for wanting something enjoyable to look at. Sorry, overwieght plumbers with pornstaches don't exactly rock my socks. And really? Any game involving the defeat of enemies is violent.

Back to my point though, if the story doesn't get my attention I'm not going to play the game and have fun, most of the fun for me is learning the story in the first place. Heck, I have fun just watching people play the games because there is a decent storyline. It's like watching a movie to me.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

...The most important part of the movie IS the story...It's the reason why you decide to watch a movie, no? It's not like I ever decided to watch a movie because of it's editing...

Let's face it, the vast majority of people went to see The Matrix because of the special effects. I go to see action movies for the action, not the story. If there is a good story there, then good, if not, as long as it's entertaining, I'm happy.

Chase Me To The End

And yes, good gameplay alone can make a good game (i.e. Tetris).

Well, Tetris is easy to design aesthetically. You'd have to really go out of your way to make it look UGLY. And let's face it, the music in Tetris is just as iconic as the Mario theme. Everyone knows it. (even though I know it as a Russian folk song, not as "Tetris theme" sweatdrop )
But again, Tetris is fun and all, but it's not an experience that moves me. The only reason I cry after Tetris is because my eyes are usually in pain from concentrating so hard.

Chase Me To The End

And although I see your point about how other factors are important in making a game good, gameplay is still the number one factor. Unlike the seperate factors such as graphics, music, or story, if you were to dismiss gameplay, there wouldn't even be a game to play in the first place. That's pretty much the reason why I hold gameplay over everything else. I honestly don't need the music or great graphics or story to enjoy the game...Just the gameplay. Didn't I tell you this before with my thoughts on Streets of Rage?

Still, I can name you a number of games where the developers... I dunno, didn't have enough of a budget, or just had shitty programmers or something, in either case, where the gameplay is mediocre at best, yet the music, the story, the artistic direction are so good that they make the game itself great, even if it's lacking in gameplay.

Chase Me To The End

But, it seems you live in the modern age, whereas I live in the era of all ages: The era where I can appreciate way old school games w/o a story, shitty graphics and no music, ya know?

Hey, I can too... But it's like appreciating old music. I can appreciate Black Sabbath, for example, or Elvis, or whoever. They were great artists and their music is still enjoyable today. BUT, if some guy or some band comes out NOW, and they sound like their music was made in the 80s, even if it's good, it's more of a, "Hey, cool, this sounds like 80's music. Campy!" But it's hard to take them seriously as a band, because they're just doing what's been done before, and not bringing their medium forward.
Same with games. And yes, I love those downloadable games that have that throwback feel, like Revenge of the Wounded Dragons. But I bought that game for $5 on sale, and it's usually like $10, which is still pretty cheap. Which is all it's worth.
And let's say Mario Galaxy is an awesome game... I mean, I didn't think it was, but apparently it is, and I'm not gonna argue that fact with you. But that "New Mario Bros. Wii" game... That's something that shouldn't be worth more than $15 at most.

Chase Me To The End

No it doesn't. A truly great game can be truly great because it's truly great fun...Bwahaha.

Well, I disagree. At least, I can't think of an example. Tetris kicks a**, but I don't consider it a truly great video game. Maybe a truly great puzzle game. But that's like saying, "It's a truly great newspaper article" doesn't make it a truly great example of fine literature.

Chase Me To The End

I don't overglorify Mario. I just point out and run with the facts that he is overglorified. I do believe that he helms the best platforming franchise in existence, though, and that he also deserves immense appraisal for his impact. See, that's me pointing out the facts and running with 'em.

Yeah, but you also said that he deserves to be overglorified. Besides, it's still objective. Like I said, Mario has ALWAYS been considered the best platformer. Yet, when Banjo Kazooie came out, it was superior to Mario 64, still, people would say, "No, Mario 64 is still better."
As of right now, yeah, I would agree that Mario is probably the best platformer now, but that's only because I don't see anymore great platformer franchises... Like, for example, in the previous generation, I would say that as far as Platformers went, the Jak series was better than any Mario platformer for the GameCube... Though the only one I could think of is Sunshine.

Chase Me To The End

Neither do I see Mario saving the gamers. But if it weren't for games like Mario, ERRVRYBODY would be a douchebag. And even if you don't want to admit it, you are half a savage if you enjoy the violence games like God of War and Uncharted have to offer (I know I do). Hey, but that's how everybody is anyways. Just don't become a full savage or a douchebag by spending all your time playing Modern Warfare 2 and shi*.

Well, then I don't think Savage is a good choice of words. If enjoying violence in God of War makes me anything... Honestly, I'd prefer sadist over savage. At least then I sound like a movie psycho, not like a... Lame a** cave man.

Chase Me To The End

Please tell me you would at least play Mario over Modern Warfare 2...

Yes, I would. But I usually suck at first person shooter games, which is probably the main reason why I don't generally like them.

xXDarling-ViolettaXx

Back to my point though, if the story doesn't get my attention I'm not going to play the game and have fun, most of the fun for me is learning the story in the first place. Heck, I have fun just watching people play the games because there is a decent storyline. It's like watching a movie to me.

Honestly, people can deny it all they want, but games have almost always been interactive movies. Or at least interactive stories.
"Mario climbs a ladder and saves the princess from the giant gorilla." That's a story right there. Even when I was little, I pretty much considered Video Games the equivalent of controlling a cartoon character. And as the times went on, most games evolved to have deeper and more engaging storylines. It's just the natural progression of evolution of gaming.  

[King of Paradise]

@Darling: Don't misunderstand me. I appreciate ultra violent games too (i.e. No More Heroes is one of my favorite games of all time). But when the casual market literally becomes a game like Modern Warfare 2, where 20 million kids of all ages (Could be 10, could be 30) get off on shooting each other in the head and then t-bagging their dead opponet (p.s. Games like that are my main gripe. Yeah, sure, God of War is ultra violent, but at least you don't go around acting like a douchebag while playing. It's the combo of being a savage and douchebag that really irks me)...Then yeah, they're savage douchebags (Savage isn't a strong word. F***ing is). And don't get my word choice wrong. Savage is an adjective, which means it describes what type of douchebag you are (Hooray for grammar school lessons). I'm not calling anyone seperately a savage...Sorta. Although earlier I said we're all half savages, that's not a bad thing. That's just how were programmed on an instictual level. I mean...We're apes, and we sure as s**t act like 'em. If you don't think so, then you need to get off the high and mighty human throne and accept that fact that you work on a primitive level. And if you're a religious person, I'm not even going there...

But anyways, Darling, if you're the type of person that plays a game to kill and t-bag your opponets, I will call you what I will. If not, don't take anything too personal from me then.

Also, you may enjoy the story of a game more than its gameplay, but that doesn't change the fact that a game is not a game w/o the gameplay. And no matter what aspect you prefer, that's still the most important one. Cause w/o the gameplay, you might as well be watching a movie.

@Bio:

1. I didn't go to see The Matrix (Or Avatar for that matter) for the special effects. And the action aesthetic is a part of the story; It's not on the same level as the movie's structure (Rather than the story's structure), which involves cinematography and editing and what not.

2. Yeah, but truly great games don't have to be limited to being able to move you. If you think so, though, then let us drop this particular debate right here.

3. Well, name me the games then.

4. F*** bringing the music medium forward. 80's vibe bands FTW! Today's rock and roll sucks anyway...

And why should a game like NSMBWii be only worth 15 dollars just because it doesn't bring the medium forward? That's stupid. Then every sequel such as Uncharted 2 or God of War 3 should be worth the same. And if you disagree because you think those games epic and impressive action brought the medium forward, then I'm sorry that NSMBWii doesn't have enough train jumping or giant climbing to satisfy you...

5. So, even if Tetris can be a truly great puzzle game, then it can't be an overall truly great game...Huh? So does that mean Uncharted 2 is only a truly great action/adventure game, or REmake is a truly great survival horror game...?

6. Sure, I said he deserves to be overglorified, but that doesn't mean I go about doing it other than by pointing out the facts, or general opinion. And the reason why people praise games like Super Mario 64 over Banjo-Kazooie is because they believe a game is better if it had a greater impact on the genre, or on gaming entirely...At least, that's my logical guess...

7. You aren't a lame a** cavemen, but you do toss your poop, no? F***ing savage. Haha, jk.  

[Elliot Salem]

First, I'm going to say this, everyone watch out what you say and how you say it. I'm sorry for playing my part as Crew member, but please don't take this to a flaming debate.

Second, I like the Mario movie. I can't explain why, I just always enjoyed it.

Third, I heard s**t about both the 360 and the PS3. People being attacked and shot and whatnot. So basically, what it comes down to, is it's not Microsoft's or Sony's fault. It's people who are willing to DO ANYTHING, and from what we've witnessed, ANY THING, for something.
I faintly remember something about the Wii, but I'm not too sure.

Fourth: Well, I'm done. I don't know what else to say, since I'm trying to stay out of it, just putting my input on a few things. Again, please restrain from taking your comments to far. EVERYONE! Not just one person, EVERYBODY! Okay, I'm done.