The danger isn't in religion

[Tenth Speed Writer]

It's in religion that becomes organized
In religion that gives itself a purpose


Because up until now, since it's the belief in who controls all of reality and our lives and what happens when we die, it's been dangerous to question religion.

But every one of those purposes, every just cause humanity gets behind, needs to be questioned.

The children's healthcare bill, despite Bush's overzealous response, needed to be questioned, because it extended itself too easily to un-needy families and those who aren't tax-paying citizens, which as benevolent as it might be, would put un-due strain on our system. (Which could be countered with a new movement to help bring those people into our system or extend out to them, but which is another topic.)

The constitution of the United States of America needed to be questioned. Were it not for the men who saw potential and actual danger in the many clauses, and fought to bring them to recognition, we would lack many of the safeguards that hold our country together.

But you can question politics. You can't question religion. When someone truly commits their self to a religion, they almost always embrace it as a whole: not just the spiritual, but the philosophical, the ethical, et al. You can't question it then.

The hebrews believed homosexuals stopped family lines from continuing and was too unsanitary. They wrote it into the Levitican laws, they used it as an example of sexual immorality, and so it became a sin.

Muhammad had too many doubters. They questioned, but too many for him to handle at once going by what he believed he saw, too many to fix it. So he said, let Allah's word be absolute, and kill anyone who would question it, that they might not go one step further and turn away all his teachings.

The pharaoh took command, but there were too many seeking power for the sake of power. So he said to his priests, let the Gods say that I am as good as they are. None could question him then, even when those who originally sought that power needlessly took his place.

Spirituality is a necessary evil in the world as it is, whether we want to believe so or not. Belief in a true absolute is all that keeps some in a state of morality and contentedness. Even if it does serve as an opiate as Marx said, if you take it away, the people will simply find another perceived absolute truth to cling to. The Soviets did. The Nazis did.

A new world order isn't ready to rise yet, and we aren't yet able to fill that gap with teachings of peace, love, reasoning, civility, and growth. Those who try so early often just produce people that care nothing for those who have religion, or produce subcultures that do the same: they hate religion. They hate the religious. They hate.

The founding fathers saw what needed to be done, and their revolution was, to them, the perfect time to start, but it was still too soon. Religion was still seen in the physical world. It still controlled people's lives. Even for the positive values imparted from our Puritanical origins, the people who grew from that were superstitious and blind in belief, and for anyone to speak out against it would have been as good as suicide.

Maybe the next revolution we have, we'll be able to do it. We can build our world on reason, love, growth, all of it. On good things for the sake of good things, that benefit us all without asking us to surrender our own reasoning and ability to form opinions on our own terms. Maybe it won't be the next, maybe the society that rises after it falls a well.

The only thing that gives me comfort is that we're still growing. From the strong but flawed Romans, to the corrupt but ordered dark ages, to the vain but flourishing Renaissance, to the violent but learning world of old Europe, to America and the Europe of today, where many have grown past the old ways, but many still are victim to them. Just as any one person with the will to survive grows and adapts, so does our entire race. The journey has never been and will never be beautiful, nor peaceful, nor without cost to life and happiness, but we are still destined, I think, for glory.


Don't hate those who are religious, and don't think less of them just because of that. Don't hate anyone who shows to you that they are ignorant, and don't assume they are simply because they believe in a god, but hopeful that they're growing and learning, or at least, doing something to help the rest of the world. Help them, if a chance presents itself to. Don't take it as an evangelical mission in the same way some have, not with such a zeal that you can't see when enough is enough, but show them through example, that there's a better life in love and reason than there is.

Just the same, don't be arrogant. What so many of those evangelicals forget is that people don't embrace a belief by being told of it only, they embrace it by learning of it through example. I know of a Christian children's home for orphans in Africa. They don't once tell their young ones they're going to hell. They pray from time to time, and make it known what their beliefs are, but they never force the children to believe. Yet, they often do embrace what their caretakers believe, because they could see the aspect of it that taught of caring for those who are struggling, and opening your heart and home to anyone who needed it. They weren't turned away by a preacher on his soapbox screaming of fire and brim stone, and they weren't shown a false image created by megachurches and corrupted pastors looking for followers to no real goal.
It's a good example to follow: be the change you want to see, as Gandhi said to. Let them see why you are better, not hear you brag of it.


The world is close to change. Maybe just a few decades, maybe a few centuries still. Either way, just remember, that the world needs good people-- not just those who are told they are good, but those who mature, and choose to be good-- now and forever.  

[AnonymouZ]

*irritated edited comment about an agnostic that prays*

I would say something like, who the ******** came up with the definition of good and bad anyway, and ask if it "REALLY" applies to the whole world.

But debating with idealists is as empty as a debate with believers, i say. Pat, however, sums up all my thoughts about this silliness in one tiny vid here.

you can watch his other vids to get more sense out of what he's talking about in the beginning  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

I'm hoping for you too, buddy.

And I told you I'm not agnostic, and I don't pray.  

[Lunar Falcon]

I, however, am agnostic. I follow science, God can't be proven or disproven in science so I stay out of it. (Though I lean on the 'no god' side.) Anon, don't be even more ignorant and more of an asshat than the religious fundamentals please.  

[AnonymouZ]

History disproves god. If you keep digging all the ancient or predecessor gods before the ones that came from the desert, you realize the idea came up out of ignorance. Or out of a genius mind, depending on how you wanna look at it. Since we know that yadda yadda yadda it gave certain people power, these certain people conquered other towns/places and used this idea to oppress other people or justify their actions. But, if you want the current definition of gods to be scientifically proven, then yes, you have nowhere to go, so i'd understand that position.

Also, i never said i was better than them. I never said i wasn't an asshat either, so it doesn't really bother me to be called by adjectives that do or not describe me.

Back to the topic tho. Looking back on human history... have we EVER revolted, or started a revolution, for LOVE?
Reason? ... maybe. Growth? Hell yeah. But, is anyone realistic when you parade "love" as a revolutionary reason? I mean... where are we? In a fairy tale or something? Then again, growth is such an ambiguous word. Either they wanted growth of their kingdoms, or they wanted someone else's FINGER to lay off their assholes so that they can grow by themselves. With their own rules. But fighting in the name of love...?

Also, you seem to make a good point. Missionaries are good people. However, it's precisely their retarded devotion to empty air that gets them killed in Africa. Put to jail in china, and ridiculed (by me anyway) when they go door to door preaching about ONE side of their made up idea of god. Good people teaching by example in orphans' homes sounds cute and all, but it doesn't cut by any means what they are all about either. I mean, i bet you've already seen footage of Bishops publicly burning condoms, because even if a wife or husband that has aids wants to protect their partner, they've got to do it by ABSTINENCE, because otherwise they'd be "corrupting" themselves, or messing with the will of their god-idea. So, burning condoms

Yes, humans are destined for glory. It's gonna be GLORIOUS to see how we all destroy each other or finish up our planet before we are able to throughly enjoy it for at least the length of a lifetime. Because if you want to rely on "emotions" to start revolutions? You can ALWAYS, start with HATE.  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

I'm getting tired of you causing trouble in my threads. Nobody appreciates your rebellious attitude or blind hostility, and though I don't have mod powers in this guild, I would be more than happy to place you on ignore. Either read the thread with an open mind, and stop assuming yourself perfectly in the right, or stay away.  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Like I always say. Leave it to humanity to ******** up a good thing. Religion's no exception; some people use it for all the wrong reasons. Though I don't subscribe to the notion that a deity exists, that shouldn't stop people from believing in what they want to. But it also shouldn't be an excuse for intolerance. Same applies to us.  

[Lunar Falcon]

Agreed Omicron, otherwise we're no better than they are. I like to keep the moral highground if at all possible because then I have the better position in an argument. Besides, it's easier to treat people with respect.  

[Sanguvixen]

Hey everyone, play nice.

It was enjoyable reading your essay like post Tenth Speed. It is true that being organized is what makes religion non-beneficial to society. I won't say bad, because good and bad are subjective.

However, that said one a belief rises up and others can find comfort in it, it is inevitable that it will become organized as more people want others to follow by it.

It happens with everything, in politics, in environmentalism, and of course in religion.

It is at least nice that more and more people are being more open to allowing the flaws of organized religion to be brought up, questioned and critisized...or at least in some countries.

Although the whole Teddy Bear fiasco made me lose some points of hope for humanity.

 

[Sagara-kun-Blue]

In my opinion, organized religion inherently has almost no positive or negative effects on society. It's when an organized religion and the people of power within it, seek to confine society by their rules. I don't care if one particular person for example, chooses not to get an appropraite abortion because of their religion. That's perfectly fine with me. She has every right to not get one. So long as a woman who would need/want one is able to get one, it really doesn't matter. No organized religion is ideal, but I really don't care until they try to tell me what to do with MY life.

And for anyone who hasn't read Atheist Universe by David Mills, I recommend it highly. It's very helpful for debate, as its entire first chapter is comprised of common Christian arguments and a corresponding atheist counterpoint. And The Onion's writing is hilarious! Check American Atheist Magazine for it, or www.theonion.com