[Discussion] Crews... really

[WindowOpener]

• TL;DR? Skip to last paragraph smile

Okay, we all know that the job of a crew is to moderate the guild. This is - at least potentially - a really, really important job, because if ToS violations go undeleted before they come to the attention of a Gaia mod, the guild can be shut down.

It's an important job, but not usually an urgent one. ToS violations don't come up that often for most guilds.

Of course, moderating doesn't just mean enforcing the ToS. It also means helping with organisation and tidyness. So handling spam is another job.

But most guilds are quiet enough or relaxed enough, or both, for spam not to be a major worry. (Maybe it's worth noting that the biggest guilds are themselves spam guilds.)

Unique to guilds, crews do have some specific jobs, like monitoring the join request queue, admitting those who seem worthy and bravely protecting the guild from those who don't.

But even for a guild our size, the join request queue rarely speeds up beyond a trickle, and even then, there's a simple policy in place: basically admit anyone who is a crew member or above somewhere. We even make them provide the appropriate links for us. ^^

Then, there's always the leading and helping sides of moderating - having input in administrative matters, consulting with the leader on many issues, from the trivial to the philosophical, and responding to calls for help and advice, in the forums or through PMs, from less experienced members than yourself, generously imparting your hard-earned wisdom to the younger generations.

...I don't know about you guys, but I haven't done much of that lately, either.

So, what do crews actually do?

There are long job descriptions, but day-to-day crew life is hardly stressful. Or am I just not working hard enough?

To belatedly draw on an anecdote, moderating in the Captains' Guild was usually quite tough. Our hands were full without having to worry about join requests at all. There still weren't many ToS violations, but spam was a genuine challenge and there were frequent posts requiring help of some kind. I'm not bragging - the Captains' Guild was, to a large extent, an official forum, and official forums tend to be both busier and stricter on spam than most guilds.

In those conditions, I found moderating tools in guilds really inadequate. Moving threads between forums is slow, and communicating the reasons for each action was a whole separate process.

Yet I think this is somewhat separate from the frequent calls for "mass moderating" tools which allow multiple threads to be moved and deleted. These exist more because guilds tend to be overhauled and "refreshed" far more often than official forums (indeed, at all).

It wasn't just mass modding tools that would have made moderating easier. I had a far more exhaustive wishlist! Two examples: I was frustrated because it was either up to mods to find misplaced threads, or up to members to PM mods about them. There were so many misplaced threads that I would have loved a mini internal guild report queue, so that members could easily flag content that got in their way and I could respond to it more efficiently. And I would have loved a way to message the thread authors integrated into the moving process.

Of course, it's possible I was just spoiled with forum modding tools.

But in all the enthusiastic suggestions and feature requests for the GGN update, I haven't noticed many moderating-related ideas, except when they related to large-scale "tidying up" or complete restarting of guilds, which is different from day-to-day moderating.

So this is something I want to discuss. Does anyone here serve on the crew for a very large (but non-spam) guild? How much moderating are you called to do in a given week? Do you find the existing tools adequate?

For any of us, since we are all crew members or vice captains or captains, how much moderating do any of us do?

My own experiences are not that broad, and especially if there are crew members here who find themselves quite busy with mod work in their guilds, I'd love to hear about it.

So far it has seemed to me that the reality of guilds is that they are simply quieter than the forums, for a range of reasons, even when they appear to have big member bases. Fewer posts naturally mean less moderating is needed. So it all comes back to the ancient question of how to get members posting actively. But meanwhile, what kinds of roles do crew members find themselves fulfilling? In small communities, especially where the crew often come directly from the community's most active and best-known members, there is more opportunity for them to take sort of relational leadership roles. Although even this sometimes amounts to the crew simply representing the only regular participants in the community.

So I want to discuss the reality of crewing in guilds. What do people actually find being a crew members means? Do any of us find the volume of moderating work challenging? What about the other tasks, like monitoring join requests? Who amongst us is regularly called on by their captains to participate in 'leadership' discussions? Who finds that being a crew member is hardly any different at all, except symbolically, from being a regular member?  

[shall she sail seas]

I'm going to change the context while replying to this thread a little. I'll be using my experience both as guild vc/captain in Gaia and as mod/co-admin in phpBB and SMF forums.

In a word, my entire wishlist for Gaia guild features is already incorporated specifically in SMF. Everything you said about mass-moderating is in there. I don't want to list a bunch of features implemented in the package (so don't ask, because I won't), but if you've ever used it, you'll know that a lot of Gaian complaints are resolved in it.

Personally, even being in charge of a large forum (at least a thousand users?) required very little actual moderating. It's been quite a few years, but my guess is I probably only deleted or moved something once every fortnight on average.

This may sound weird but for all my experience, I've only started OWNING a community (a guild on Gaia) last month. My personal concept of crew duties is that initiative and responsibility should always eclipse moderation or any use of power for that matter.

I like to think of it like an industry - I'm the legislative body and my members are potential private business owners. So they might suggest an idea. If I approve of it, they get promoted to crew and take full responsibility of putting that idea into action. If it's successful, they can keep their position. If it flops, they're demoted back to a normal member. Their idea might continue under my power or disintegrate. Actual moving/deleting stuff is only a by-product of crew status.

And I realise this is very Utilitarian and maybe even perceived as cold-hearted. But business isn't friendship and friendship isn't business. Activity in itself does not lead to or secure crew status and some of my best friends in real life will never make good potential business partners either.  

[MemoryDragon]

I've never felt super useless in a crew. In fact, it's generally a position I try to turn down if I can. I've come to realize that I make myself entirely too useful sometimes... rofl

Sure, there are times when I'm not doing anything of modding nature... But I've been in more crew drama's than I can count. I've been in a major crisis in almost every guild I've been crew in and I'm generally pulling my weight around at those times using the title of moderator quite literally.

I think that in an active (strict) roll playing guild problems tend to come up more often. I think that's just the nature of the guild, since when people start messing with something that everyone has put forth a lot of effort into (characters, plot, creative ideas, etc...) tempers flare up quicker. Where as a discussion guild like this, you can generally ignore someone who's annoying the hell out of you for a little while longer before it can become a problem.

I'll even admit to being part of the drama, occasionally, as much as it pains me to admit such a thing. I've actually had to walk away from a role play I really liked because the person in charge of the thread did not handle the problem very well. I never got an apology for what happened, even though I had apologized for my part of the mess. But because the thread owner was friends with the other guy, she didn't see a reason to ask him to apologize for being flat out rude and a major jerk to me.

So don't underestimate the major crisis part of being a crew.

As for the leading and helping... Well, the leading thing I've always tried to stay away from. xd I enjoy being supportive much more than I do taking the lead. I've turned down being the captain of this guild and one or two others for this sole reason. Helping I find I do quite a bit though.

I always seem to decline the one person in the request queue that is going to send me angry pm's as to why they should be accepted even though they didn't follow the rules, for example. The Q&A sub-forum of this guild has always been sort of my domain in this guild... That was the reason I was promoted to crew here in the first place after all. I tend to feel if I'm on top of all the problems in there, I've been doing my crew duties properly. I've also always been willing to fund contests when the need arises in any of my guilds.

To sum up, I've never felt like taking a crew position was nothing different from being a regular member. Even though in one or two guilds, that's all it's really been for me... I've just had enough experience with all the work and headaches that can come with running guilds that I'm always weary of accepting such positions.  

[WindowOpener]

NomNomNominal

This may sound weird but for all my experience, I've only started OWNING a community (a guild on Gaia) last month. My personal concept of crew duties is that initiative and responsibility should always eclipse moderation or any use of power for that matter.

I have very limited experience modding outside Gaia, so it's great to hear about other forum packages and your experiences with them. (I've used phpBB a bit, but not SMF.) While I think it's good for Gaia to be doing its own thing, since guilds do have a role within Gaia even though they are self-moderated, it would definitely be worthwhile learning from other places.

I think the second point you made there is important, even though it can be interpreted in different ways. Either because there would only be a small amount of work to do if crewing was just moderating, or because initiative and responsibility are more important in principle, it is definitely clear that in practice crewing is more about leadership than policing.

NomNomNominal

I like to think of it like an industry - I'm the legislative body and my members are potential private business owners. So they might suggest an idea. If I approve of it, they get promoted to crew and take full responsibility of putting that idea into action. If it's successful, they can keep their position. If it flops, they're demoted back to a normal member. Their idea might continue under my power or disintegrate. Actual moving/deleting stuff is only a by-product of crew status.

I really like this metaphor and idea - it sounds utilitarian, but I don't think it really is. It's a fairly detailed framework for a captain to use, but it has plenty of room for crews to take initiatives. Indeed it encourages this, which is totally in the GGN spirit of experimenting. I've never seen this approach expressed in that way before, it's awesome. ^^

MemoryDragon

I think that in an active (strict) roll playing guild problems tend to come up more often. I think that's just the nature of the guild, since when people start messing with something that everyone has put forth a lot of effort into (characters, plot, creative ideas, etc...) tempers flare up quicker. Where as a discussion guild like this, you can generally ignore someone who's annoying the hell out of you for a little while longer before it can become a problem.

That's really interesting, I'm glad you brought this up because I've never worked in an active strict RP guild. So in asking whether there are people who do find crewing more hectic and demanding sometimes, this is the kind of response I wondered about. And it makes sense that this is tied up with the extra writing and planning involved.

MemoryDragon

I'll even admit to being part of the drama, occasionally, as much as it pains me to admit such a thing. I've actually had to walk away from a role play I really liked because the person in charge of the thread did not handle the problem very well. I never got an apology for what happened, even though I had apologized for my part of the mess. But because the thread owner was friends with the other guy, she didn't see a reason to ask him to apologize for being flat out rude and a major jerk to me.

So don't underestimate the major crisis part of being a crew.

I've been lucky to avoid this kind of politics at higher levels in guilds (not because of any effort on my part, it just hasn't happened in my guilds) so I haven't really appreciated the 'crisis management' aspect of the job. What really surprises me is that you say you've had to step in and deal with it in every one of your guilds, which really hits home that it's probably a lot more prevalent than I thought before.

MemoryDragon

As for the leading and helping... Well, the leading thing I've always tried to stay away from. xd I enjoy being supportive much more than I do taking the lead. I've turned down being the captain of this guild and one or two others for this sole reason. Helping I find I do quite a bit though.

I always seem to decline the one person in the request queue that is going to send me angry pm's as to why they should be accepted even though they didn't follow the rules, for example. The Q&A sub-forum of this guild has always been sort of my domain in this guild... That was the reason I was promoted to crew here in the first place after all. I tend to feel if I'm on top of all the problems in there, I've been doing my crew duties properly. I've also always been willing to fund contests when the need arises in any of my guilds.

To sum up, I've never felt like taking a crew position was nothing different from being a regular member. Even though in one or two guilds, that's all it's really been for me... I've just had enough experience with all the work and headaches that can come with running guilds that I'm always weary of accepting such positions.

Firstly this is a good summary of how our different approaches to crewing are all personal. But also, I think you're in accord here with NomNom's ideas of crewing being more about taking initiative than strictly moderating (even though you make the point that in some guilds, the moderating demands are high, too).

I'll add that it's interesting to see exactly what both of your different personal approaches are (so I hope more people come and talk about theirs!). Personally, I also enjoy tidying up forums and helping out with questions when they come up. I think those things keep you in touch with the guild as well, both in providing an ideally invisible service, and in bringing you in contact with members who are usually newer and still adjusting to how things work. That's definitely valuable and rewarding. But I honestly do get more satisfaction personally from administrative things, like setting up threads and forums. I'm comfortable in positions of having to resolve disputes, although I haven't really been tested outside Gaia modding so I don't know how effective I actually am. XD I enjoy the leading part, but agree that in guilds it's more helpful day-to-day to be offering leadership through service and initiative.  

[MemoryDragon]

I really can't speak for non-lit role plays, since I can't stand the things... But lit role plays are a monster that can stir up quite a bit of clashing sometimes. xd I think that's why I get in so many crises. I most of my guilds are role play oriented. xd

But even then, back when poll whore guilds were still thriving, I was a mod in one of those. Ended up standing between two friends in the middle of a HUGE argument that resulted in one member leaving the crew and guild all together. So maybe trouble just finds me. sweatdrop

I do agree though, that modding is exactly what you put into it. It's how you work and what you see as rewarding. You're feeling 'useless' at the moment because you aren't getting a balance between rewards and responsibility. You're getting the rewards, but not feeling like you're earning them.

Which, I would say you are, as far as topic starting goes. xd After all, you get us in conversations like this and we all end up having a good time. heart  

[shall she sail seas]

Well, a small amount of work is still work. I currently have one crew member who serves as a backup for actual moderation and runs a chatterbox-ish subforum (because the subforum was her idea). Another is making preparations to run an RP experiment. I find backup necessary just in case anything weird happens like real life emergencies or simply members breaking TOS at an odd time of day. So the policing is still necessary and very present.

Sounds to me like Window and Memory have peacekeeper identities within the online communities your'e in charge of. I almost want to say that supporting is a passive role but posting about issues, updating members and settling disputes are pretty active... uhh... actions.

The last point, settling disputes, is the biggest enigma to me. How do you guys do it? Once, I was involved in a huge e-war between two forums and there was a bit of DDOS-ing and hacking going on. The admin of the forum I co-admined started it so it seemed like anything I did to lessen the damage could be considered "helping the enemy". Eventually, I purposely "lost" contact with both forums save for a small group that started their own group blog and co-admined that instead. Not exactly a happy ending.

This is going to sound a bit weird.... With Gaia, from what I experienced outside of guilds, drama is mostly playing around with "he said, she said". Is this how it was during guild drama as well, Memory? An interesting, albeit potentially creepy, mod of phpBB is the ability to read members' PMs, which obviously helps with figuring out the truth.  

[mamarita]

I have had to run the entire spectrum of modding. Here, we actually do a lot of chatterbox type threads on the main forum and not utilize the chatterbox thread. I am not that concerned about it, to be honest. If people come here and need to talk, let them talk.

I actually do a lot of ToS work on my guilds and, unfortunately, have to discipline violators of not only Gaia ToS but guild ToS. Most of the guilds are lax in their rules, in my estimation. There are some things that are not tolerated. Oh, everyone curses, we know that, but when it gets out of hand, then I have to step in. Delete threads, caution members and in extreme cases, have had to ban people.

It's a time consuming job if you have more than 1 guild, like I do, but it's not overly so. I spend about an hour a day going over threads, checking to see that things are okay in the guilds.

Gaia is for people to interact and have fun. As long as they can do so without infringing on other people's sensibilities, I don't have many problems.

The one thing that we aren't seeing anymore is the automatic banning of persons under 13. This site was ORIGINALLY supposed to be for 18 and older people, and then members were letting their children/teenagers on. Then we changed to a pg13 only site, which is good enough. But we have too many younger people hanging around, doing things that are not right and it's sad. Unless the offending people are members of guilds, the mods aren't really catching things like they did before- dare I say it- Lanzer sold out to big corporations and got rid of the people that REALLY watched the site.