I am bitching and I know it (stay out if it bothers you)

[Obscurus]

I seem to remember reading that the Civil War had more to do with economic issues than it did perpetuating slavery solely because of racist ideology. Lots of people died in the Civil War but that wasn't entirely the South's fault.

I'm not going to fly the flag but I understand that it has history and some people identify with the rebellious, secessionist, stick-it-to-the-man ideology that the flag symbolizes. Some people are just racist.

If people want to fly it then so be it. Ditto with the swastika.  

[Vanilla eXee]

Obscurus

I seem to remember reading that the Civil War had more to do with economic issues than it did perpetuating slavery solely because of racist ideology. Lots of people died in the Civil War but that wasn't entirely the South's fault.

I'm not going to fly the flag but I understand that it has history and some people identify with the rebellious, secessionist, stick-it-to-the-man ideology that the flag symbolizes. Some people are just racist.

If people want to fly it then so be it. Ditto with the swastika.

There's a kid we know down here that has a confederate flag tattoo, and the words "No Hate" I believe what it's supposed to mean is that he can rep the flag and still not be an a*****e.  

[Underworld Priestess]

Rei_Toei

The Confederate flag is another matter. It did stand specifically for men abandoning the U.S. over ideology. It stood for the political desire to perpetuate slavery. It is a relic of the worst of American history. There is absolutely nothing there to take pride in, and everything tragic. Tens of thousands of Americans died in that abomination called the Civil War.

I, personally, would not call the Civil War the worst of American history, we have a lot of terrible events in our history. Number one that comes to mind is white people vs. Native Americans. Now that is a terrible history. The beginning Civil War actually had very little to do with slavery. It was mainly about economics, and yes part of the South's economic foundation was based on slavery; and because the North wanted to control everything the South did. Which including higher taxes for the South. On the other side of things, many Northern's didn't care whether African Americans were free or not. The reason that the Emancipation Proclamation came about was because Lincoln wanted to make it so that African Americans could enlist and would want to do so.
Usually the history one learns in school is half-truths designed to either make it easier on the teacher or make a certain group look better than another. The Confederate flag does not stand for slavery, at least not for everyone who would proudly fly it themselves.
I have learned a lot from the few years I lived in North Carolina about Southern Pride and it is certainly not always racist. Honestly, I see more racism living in the North than I did in the South. Certainly, after the Civil War some lines were just not erased.  

[Underworld Priestess]

4shi

Ah, the PFRC!
In general, I consider them ironically fluffy. They go around causing trouble and then scream persecution when people challenge them in kind. There are a few who I feel have their hearts in the right place, but don't understand how to approach people with that information. Such is the internet, I suppose...

I so agree! I thought that a long time ago, that they are really the fluffy ones. What always got me is that if you point out something that one of them said and you are not a regular member, no matter if you agree with them or not, they gang up on you. They always think they are right and perfect.  

[Creator Of Infinity]

Quote:

I seem to remember reading that the Civil War had more to do with economic issues than it did perpetuating slavery solely because of racist ideology. Lots of people died in the Civil War but that wasn't entirely the South's fault.

I'm not going to fly the flag but I understand that it has history and some people identify with the rebellious, secessionist, stick-it-to-the-man ideology that the flag symbolizes. Some people are just racist.

If people want to fly it then so be it. Ditto with the swastika

i'm a noob what of it? lots of good things are new, new million dollar check in your pocket? how about a new girl when your feelin lonely? a new FREE car? How about a new punch to the face for all the "i'm better than you" idiots out there, hatin on noobs? btw you were all noobs once.

Anyway there is a reason the south are known as freedom fighters. Cause they fought for freedom, not slavery. Irregardless of the fact slavery was common then, it doesn't mean that everyone agreed with it.... it just means people where generally afraid to suggest the crudeness of it.

and yes the history books, are always written by the winners.

Peace out, call me the creator. FREEDOM RULES! biggrin  

[Rei_Toei]

Underworld Priestess

Rei_Toei

The Confederate flag is another matter. It did stand specifically for men abandoning the U.S. over ideology. It stood for the political desire to perpetuate slavery. It is a relic of the worst of American history. There is absolutely nothing there to take pride in, and everything tragic. Tens of thousands of Americans died in that abomination called the Civil War.

I, personally, would not call the Civil War the worst of American history, we have a lot of terrible events in our history. Number one that comes to mind is white people vs. Native Americans. Now that is a terrible history. The beginning Civil War actually had very little to do with slavery. It was mainly about economics, and yes part of the South's economic foundation was based on slavery; and because the North wanted to control everything the South did. Which including higher taxes for the South. On the other side of things, many Northern's didn't care whether African Americans were free or not. The reason that the Emancipation Proclamation came about was because Lincoln wanted to make it so that African Americans could enlist and would want to do so.
Usually the history one learns in school is half-truths designed to either make it easier on the teacher or make a certain group look better than another. The Confederate flag does not stand for slavery, at least not for everyone who would proudly fly it themselves.
I have learned a lot from the few years I lived in North Carolina about Southern Pride and it is certainly not always racist. Honestly, I see more racism living in the North than I did in the South. Certainly, after the Civil War some lines were just not erased.

All you say is very true. To cook the entirety of the Civil War down to one issue is an oversimplification. I find the Civil War incredibly tragic and not awfully appealing because it was a breakdown of our democracy; it creeps me out that people can be just as polarized now. (Which was in sympathy with the original post, which is how I think I got to musing down this rabbit hole in the first place. )

Slavery was not the sole issue, but it is undeniably a fundamental difference that the war specifically resolved and it is a mistake to pretend that it wasn't a huge issue in the War. Human rights; what is purportedly more important in America ideals? The price of cotton led us to shed the blood of brothers really? That doesn't make the Civil War more honorable in my eyes. The Emancipation Proclamation not only bestowed rights but also enabled responsibilities for a class of humans. It is just sad that the human condition makes us crazy enough to need proclamations like that to set some people straight.

I am sure persons on both sides had mixed feelings about slavery, and probably half of Americans didn't EXACTLY know why we were fighting at all. Just like Americans do now. People are way too high strung and vitriolic over stuff that is mostly over their heads in the first place.

And a lot of people don't think of the Confederate Flag that way (or think much at all for that matter. Doesn't really excuse much.) A high school in town has Rebels for a mascot and used to have a Stars and Bars motif going years ago. I think they toned it down or abandoned that altogether, but they are still Rebels. They damn sure don't fly the Confederate flag in front of the building or anything.

The history of the Civil War makes for totally great reading, and I don't have a single problem with Civil War enactors. It's just cosplay for old farts. History is always interesting, but it is not always admirable.

I have always lived in the South, if you can call Texas the South. It's more south technically than everyone else. We are more like North Mexico. The bigotry is a little different here. But also, we have a lot of integration and harmony among a lot of us. It's the nutbags that give us the bad rep, and I think that is true for all states.

Culturally, Texas is enough like Mexico that if one was afraid to visit Mexico, one could just go south of Waco and it is like being in a different country. Everyone eats tacos for breakfast and it is natural, normal and every freaking body does it. A LOT of the signage is in Spanish. We are all a little bit bilingual and don't even realize it. If I was going to get some pride on about Texas, it would be about Tex Mex cooking and local music.

I agree that the treatment of Native Americans was disgraceful. As with slavery, humans were dehumanized, butchered, abducted and swindled. I think that kind of treatment of the Jewish people was my problem with swastikas too.

Symbols are real powerful things. Dragging this back to a sort of paranormal viewpoint, they are sometimes said to embody power. Why play with the negatively charged stuff. That's just me. And I'm a hypocrite; I have skulls all over my stuff and peace signs and yin yangs and Hello Kittys all over the place, so what the hell do I have to say about other people's symbolism.  

[Obscurus]

Creator Of Infinity

Quote:

I seem to remember reading that the Civil War had more to do with economic issues than it did perpetuating slavery solely because of racist ideology. Lots of people died in the Civil War but that wasn't entirely the South's fault.

I'm not going to fly the flag but I understand that it has history and some people identify with the rebellious, secessionist, stick-it-to-the-man ideology that the flag symbolizes. Some people are just racist.

If people want to fly it then so be it. Ditto with the swastika

i'm a noob what of it? lots of good things are new, new million dollar check in your pocket? how about a new girl when your feelin lonely? a new FREE car? How about a new punch to the face for all the "i'm better than you" idiots out there, hatin on noobs? btw you were all noobs once.

Anyway there is a reason the south are known as freedom fighters. Cause they fought for freedom, not slavery. Irregardless of the fact slavery was common then, it doesn't mean that everyone agreed with it.... it just means people where generally afraid to suggest the crudeness of it.

and yes the history books, are always written by the winners.

Peace out, call me the creator. FREEDOM RULES! biggrin

I'm confused. Are you being general when you're talking about newbies and new things because I don't recall ever saying anything bad about them. I think there may have been a misunderstanding.

As to freedom, it's a lot more important when it's your freedom at stake. That's me being general. xd  

[Creator Of Infinity]

Quote:

I'm confused. Are you being general when you're talking about newbies and new things because I don't recall ever saying anything bad about them. I think there may have been a misunderstanding.

As to freedom, it's a lot more important when it's your freedom at stake. That's me being general

sorry i didnt clarify, i was introducing myself while at the same time "bitching"
because i ahve been treated as an atrocity just because im new, so i was refering to my hatred of hatred, which is also known as love,, hahahah
freedom is what we all seek, we will find it in time. nice to meet you btw.  

[Obscurus]

Creator Of Infinity

Quote:

I'm confused. Are you being general when you're talking about newbies and new things because I don't recall ever saying anything bad about them. I think there may have been a misunderstanding.

As to freedom, it's a lot more important when it's your freedom at stake. That's me being general

sorry i didnt clarify, i was introducing myself while at the same time "bitching"
because i ahve been treated as an atrocity just because im new, so i was refering to my hatred of hatred, which is also known as love,, hahahah
freedom is what we all seek, we will find it in time. nice to meet you btw.

I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some conflict-brewing misunderstanding going on. sweatdrop Welcome to the guild!  

[Nero-gataki]

Whoh seeing alot of disagree'ers i personaly agree with you if there is some fuc*heads that have a 'god' complex then they should shut up honestly i think it should all be fair and if you ask them i quistion they should anser it without being d**k's about it. and hey im new here too i welcome you!! biggrin lets have some convorsation sometime ill give you a good run for your beliefs money ;p  

[Sonkurra-Taichou]

Nothing wrong with having an opinion; just with being an a*****e.