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 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:32 pm
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Scarlet_Teardrops Shadows-shine Kipluck to the OP, Shadows-shine, I am told all the time I am not a Christian because of my beliefs, but as none of those people are CHRIST I tend to ignore them. To me a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of the Savior to the best of their abilities and understanding. A Christian is not "someone who believes exactly what I do" which is, I am afraid, what many other Christians seem to believe. I believe the Bible is the Word of God... as far as it is translated correctly. Are there mistakes? There may be, yes, but only because of the way it has been interpreted by man. I don't call it the Trinity, I do say the Godhead, but that is slightly different. In that I believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all part of "one God" as God is a job description. Shadows-shine Quote: Do you have to believe in the Trinity? No. I do, though. A lot of Christians do. I won't debate with you about it here sweatdrop Though I found out that my mom, who is protestant, believest that Heaven Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings (she views the Godhead the same way I do), but she calls it the trinity still, because she says they are united in thought and purpose, which is also how I view it. That is how I believe too, though I am not protestant. I believe the Bible is the Word of God... but I don't believe in a closed Cannon. I believe in modern revelation. I'll be honest, I don't believe that the Songs of Solomon are Divinely inspired more than just poetry by a righteous man. I have never read the Apocrypha in the Catholic bible, and so I do not have an opinion on that yet. In other words, I think what is considered "scripture" does vary from Bible to Bible. "Can you just say that you're a Christian and not have to do any thing else and still go to heaven?" I believe you will go to a VERSION of Heaven, and will be resurrected, merely by being here and as a free gift for what Christ gave us ALL. But to live WITH God and Christ I believe means doing all we can (which is not enough, and never will be, with out the grace of God). "Can you believe that there is a living prophet on the earth today?" As I said I believe to be Christian means following Christ... NOT "believing exactly as I do." But for the record I do NOT believe the Heavens are closed and do believe that God has prophets on this earth again. What religion are you, may I ask? @ Scarlett- The LDS believe in three different glories or degrees of Heaven. Only the righteous saints, the ones who obeyed every command that Christ had given will enter God's kingdom, the Celestial Glory or Kingdom. The two other, lower glories, terrestrial and telestial, are for those who maybe had a testimony of Christ but didn't follow and obey all the commandments, or they were good people but did not believe in God. Outer Darkness is reserved for those who are sons of Perdition. Those who had a testimony of Christ, but denied the light within them, the unforgivable sin, blasphemey. That is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth is. Hell for the LDS is viewed like how the Jews view it, a temporary place in the after life, the spirit realm, Sheol, is the Hebrew term. The LDS have it divided in two places in the spirit realm, paradise and hell. Paradise is where the theif on the cross went. He didn't go to Heaven directly after he died. No one does. No one is granted passage into any of the degrees of glory or Outer Darkness until after Judgement Day.
So we have to obey every single command or we can't enter the Kingdom?
That's impossible. Nobody can obey the Law to the letter their whol lives. Paul himself, an apostle of Jesus Christ, knew this. Jesus said this. We are saved by God's grace alone. Our actions cannot make us righteous. We are counted righteous only through our faith in Christ. This faith will grow in us the fruits of the spirit, produce good fruit.
@Someoneiknow
He isn't saying that he just follows the Creed. He is saying that the Creed encompasses his beliefs, which can be found in the Bible.
There is forgiveness and a second chance. God is merciful. He isn't going to condemn some one to hell that was a good person, but didn't believe in Christ, that's not just.
And yes, we must obey all the commandments from Christ to the best of our ability. He told us to! He also commanded us to be perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect. He never told us it was easy, but it would be worth it.
I never said that our works make us righteous. Works are necessary though. Faith without works is dead. A work is professing a belief in Christ, baptism is a work, obeying the commandments as given in scripture, enduring to the end is a work. You said yourself that you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven just by saying you believe in Christ. You have to have works, part of those works are obeying the Law of Christ.
And what is God's grace? It's Christ! I know that He alone saves us, but it's frequently emphasized that without Christ you cannot make it to the Celestial kingdom, which I acknowleged. And part of believing in Christ is following ALL of His commandments! |
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:00 pm
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Shadows-shine Scarlet_Teardrops Shadows-shine Kipluck to the OP, Shadows-shine, I am told all the time I am not a Christian because of my beliefs, but as none of those people are CHRIST I tend to ignore them. To me a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of the Savior to the best of their abilities and understanding. A Christian is not "someone who believes exactly what I do" which is, I am afraid, what many other Christians seem to believe. I believe the Bible is the Word of God... as far as it is translated correctly. Are there mistakes? There may be, yes, but only because of the way it has been interpreted by man. I don't call it the Trinity, I do say the Godhead, but that is slightly different. In that I believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all part of "one God" as God is a job description. Shadows-shine Quote: Do you have to believe in the Trinity? No. I do, though. A lot of Christians do. I won't debate with you about it here sweatdrop Though I found out that my mom, who is protestant, believest that Heaven Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings (she views the Godhead the same way I do), but she calls it the trinity still, because she says they are united in thought and purpose, which is also how I view it. That is how I believe too, though I am not protestant. I believe the Bible is the Word of God... but I don't believe in a closed Cannon. I believe in modern revelation. I'll be honest, I don't believe that the Songs of Solomon are Divinely inspired more than just poetry by a righteous man. I have never read the Apocrypha in the Catholic bible, and so I do not have an opinion on that yet. In other words, I think what is considered "scripture" does vary from Bible to Bible. "Can you just say that you're a Christian and not have to do any thing else and still go to heaven?" I believe you will go to a VERSION of Heaven, and will be resurrected, merely by being here and as a free gift for what Christ gave us ALL. But to live WITH God and Christ I believe means doing all we can (which is not enough, and never will be, with out the grace of God). "Can you believe that there is a living prophet on the earth today?" As I said I believe to be Christian means following Christ... NOT "believing exactly as I do." But for the record I do NOT believe the Heavens are closed and do believe that God has prophets on this earth again. What religion are you, may I ask? @ Scarlett- The LDS believe in three different glories or degrees of Heaven. Only the righteous saints, the ones who obeyed every command that Christ had given will enter God's kingdom, the Celestial Glory or Kingdom. The two other, lower glories, terrestrial and telestial, are for those who maybe had a testimony of Christ but didn't follow and obey all the commandments, or they were good people but did not believe in God. Outer Darkness is reserved for those who are sons of Perdition. Those who had a testimony of Christ, but denied the light within them, the unforgivable sin, blasphemey. That is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth is. Hell for the LDS is viewed like how the Jews view it, a temporary place in the after life, the spirit realm, Sheol, is the Hebrew term. The LDS have it divided in two places in the spirit realm, paradise and hell. Paradise is where the theif on the cross went. He didn't go to Heaven directly after he died. No one does. No one is granted passage into any of the degrees of glory or Outer Darkness until after Judgement Day.
So we have to obey every single command or we can't enter the Kingdom?
That's impossible. Nobody can obey the Law to the letter their whol lives. Paul himself, an apostle of Jesus Christ, knew this. Jesus said this. We are saved by God's grace alone. Our actions cannot make us righteous. We are counted righteous only through our faith in Christ. This faith will grow in us the fruits of the spirit, produce good fruit.
@Someoneiknow
He isn't saying that he just follows the Creed. He is saying that the Creed encompasses his beliefs, which can be found in the Bible.
There is forgiveness and a second chance. God is merciful. He isn't going to condemn some one to hell that was a good person, but didn't believe in Christ, that's not just. And yes, we must obey all the commandments from Christ to the best of our ability. He told us to! He also commanded us to be perfect as His Father in Heaven is perfect. He never told us it was easy, but it would be worth it. I never said that our works make us righteous. Works are necessary though. Faith without works is dead. A work is professing a belief in Christ, baptism is a work, obeying the commandments as given in scripture, enduring to the end is a work. You said yourself that you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven just by saying you believe in Christ. You have to have works, part of those works are obeying the Law of Christ. And what is God's grace? It's Christ! I know that He alone saves us, but it's frequently emphasized that without Christ you cannot make it to the Celestial kingdom, which I acknowleged. And part of believing in Christ is following ALL of His commandments!
But Jesus said He is the only way to the Father. The Father is in heaven. Those who reject Jesus' message (who don't believe in Him) cannot go to heaven.
You are made righteous only through your faith in Christ. For that is what the Scriptures say. It is in Romans, and in many other places in the Bible. And so your good works don't matter if you don't believe in Jesus Christ.
You are saying that our works make us righteous if you say that "good" people can go to heaven. You are only made good through Christ. It may not be direct, but you are saying such things indirectly.
I did not say anything about works. I said that you only need faith, and that your faith will be evident through good works. Where/when did I ever say that works save you? I've never believed that.
You follow His commandments to the best of your abilities. But only Christ is perfect. We will never be perfect until we die and are Resurrected. Only then, with new bodies, shall we be perfected.
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:11 pm
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Scarlet_Teardrops
But Jesus said He is the only way to the Father. The Father is in heaven. Those who reject Jesus' message (who don't believe in Him) cannot go to heaven.
The Father is in the Celestial Glory. The terrestrial and telestial are not the Kingdom of God. Heavenly Father will not decend to those levels. He can't. He is too glorious.
Quote: You are made righteous only through your faith in Christ. For that is what the Scriptures say. It is in Romans, and in many other places in the Bible. And so your good works don't matter if you don't believe in Jesus Christ.
I agree. I never said contrary.
Quote: You are saying that our works make us righteous if you say that "good" people can go to heaven. You are only made good through Christ. It may not be direct, but you are saying such things indirectly.
Maybe you are misunderstanding me. Good people can be a broad range on the spectrum. Since I don't believe that people are born sinners and that we are sinners only when we sin, one cannot be saved or sin in ignorance, so therefore, those who never knew Christ or had a testimony of Him, cannot and will not be condemned to hell or outerdarkness for their ignorance, but they will not be granted passage into the kingdom of Heaven (Celestial Glory, Heavenly Father's dwelling)
Quote: I did not say anything about works. I said that you only need faith, and that your faith will be evident through good works. Where/when did I ever say that works save you? I've never believed that.
Quote: You follow His commandments to the best of your abilities. But only Christ is perfect. We will never be perfect until we die and are Resurrected. Only then, with new bodies, shall we be perfected.
Christ told us to be perfect. Does He mean be flawless in all that we do at this point in time? No, but I do believe there are certain things that people can be perfect at and be flawless at. If that commandment is unrealistic for us to attain right now then Christ would not have said it or He would have said "you will be perfect like my Father when you die." |
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:54 pm
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Scarlet_Teardrops Shadows-shine Kipluck to the OP, Shadows-shine, I am told all the time I am not a Christian because of my beliefs, but as none of those people are CHRIST I tend to ignore them. To me a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of the Savior to the best of their abilities and understanding. A Christian is not "someone who believes exactly what I do" which is, I am afraid, what many other Christians seem to believe. I believe the Bible is the Word of God... as far as it is translated correctly. Are there mistakes? There may be, yes, but only because of the way it has been interpreted by man. I don't call it the Trinity, I do say the Godhead, but that is slightly different. In that I believe that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are all part of "one God" as God is a job description. Shadows-shine Quote: Do you have to believe in the Trinity? No. I do, though. A lot of Christians do. I won't debate with you about it here sweatdrop Though I found out that my mom, who is protestant, believest that Heaven Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings (she views the Godhead the same way I do), but she calls it the trinity still, because she says they are united in thought and purpose, which is also how I view it. That is how I believe too, though I am not protestant. I believe the Bible is the Word of God... but I don't believe in a closed Cannon. I believe in modern revelation. I'll be honest, I don't believe that the Songs of Solomon are Divinely inspired more than just poetry by a righteous man. I have never read the Apocrypha in the Catholic bible, and so I do not have an opinion on that yet. In other words, I think what is considered "scripture" does vary from Bible to Bible. "Can you just say that you're a Christian and not have to do any thing else and still go to heaven?" I believe you will go to a VERSION of Heaven, and will be resurrected, merely by being here and as a free gift for what Christ gave us ALL. But to live WITH God and Christ I believe means doing all we can (which is not enough, and never will be, with out the grace of God). "Can you believe that there is a living prophet on the earth today?" As I said I believe to be Christian means following Christ... NOT "believing exactly as I do." But for the record I do NOT believe the Heavens are closed and do believe that God has prophets on this earth again. What religion are you, may I ask? @ Scarlett- The LDS believe in three different glories or degrees of Heaven. Only the righteous saints, the ones who obeyed every command that Christ had given will enter God's kingdom, the Celestial Glory or Kingdom. The two other, lower glories, terrestrial and telestial, are for those who maybe had a testimony of Christ but didn't follow and obey all the commandments, or they were good people but did not believe in God. Outer Darkness is reserved for those who are sons of Perdition. Those who had a testimony of Christ, but denied the light within them, the unforgivable sin, blasphemey. That is where the weeping and gnashing of teeth is. Hell for the LDS is viewed like how the Jews view it, a temporary place in the after life, the spirit realm, Sheol, is the Hebrew term. The LDS have it divided in two places in the spirit realm, paradise and hell. Paradise is where the theif on the cross went. He didn't go to Heaven directly after he died. No one does. No one is granted passage into any of the degrees of glory or Outer Darkness until after Judgement Day.
@Someoneiknow
He isn't saying that he just follows the Creed. He is saying that the Creed encompasses his beliefs, which can be found in the Bible.
Then that's not his testimony, it's a creed established in Nicea and a person could have a testimony OF it, but that is not that person's testimony. If you use that as your testimony, then you either have a weak testimony of Christ, or you are not Christian. A testimony of Christ is like a nature lover going out into the wilderness. It cannot be summed up into words the beauty and love that you see in the wilderness. Take the Black Hills, I can point out a billion things and still not sum it up. The beauty of the Ponderosa Pine tree, how tall and majestic it is. How the sound throw the needles creates a beautiful rushing sound, all encompassing, and exciting. How the rivers slowly caress the landscape, winding in and out of the landscape. The animals meandering by, allowed free range upon the majestic meadows. etc.
This should be our testimony of Christ. We shouldn't try and sum it up, it's not something to be comprised together. We should try and speak about all we can about it. God is complicated, and His love is complicated, thus, we should point out as much as we can, our beliefs to an extent. This is what creates discussion, this is what builds our testimony, not saying I piggyback on a 1500 year old compromise. |
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Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:07 pm
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Shadows-shine Scarlet_Teardrops
But Jesus said He is the only way to the Father. The Father is in heaven. Those who reject Jesus' message (who don't believe in Him) cannot go to heaven.
The Father is in the Celestial Glory. The terrestrial and telestial are not the Kingdom of God. Heavenly Father will not decend to those levels. He can't. He is too glorious.
Quote: You are made righteous only through your faith in Christ. For that is what the Scriptures say. It is in Romans, and in many other places in the Bible. And so your good works don't matter if you don't believe in Jesus Christ.
I agree. I never said contrary.
Quote: You are saying that our works make us righteous if you say that "good" people can go to heaven. You are only made good through Christ. It may not be direct, but you are saying such things indirectly.
Maybe you are misunderstanding me. Good people can be a broad range on the spectrum. Since I don't believe that people are born sinners and that we are sinners only when we sin, one cannot be saved or sin in ignorance, so therefore, those who never knew Christ or had a testimony of Him, cannot and will not be condemned to hell or outerdarkness for their ignorance, but they will not be granted passage into the kingdom of Heaven (Celestial Glory, Heavenly Father's dwelling)
Quote: I did not say anything about works. I said that you only need faith, and that your faith will be evident through good works. Where/when did I ever say that works save you? I've never believed that.
Quote: You follow His commandments to the best of your abilities. But only Christ is perfect. We will never be perfect until we die and are Resurrected. Only then, with new bodies, shall we be perfected.
Christ told us to be perfect. Does He mean be flawless in all that we do at this point in time? No, but I do believe there are certain things that people can be perfect at and be flawless at. If that commandment is unrealistic for us to attain right now then Christ would not have said it or He would have said "you will be perfect like my Father when you die."
>.>
I think most of this was just a misunderstanding.
By the way, you did accuse me of saying it.
Shadows-Shine You said yourself that you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven just by saying you believe in Christ. You have to have works, part of those works are obeying the Law of Christ.
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Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:16 pm
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Scarlet_Teardrops By the way, you did accuse me of saying it. Shadows-Shine You said yourself that you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven just by saying you believe in Christ. You have to have works, part of those works are obeying the Law of Christ.
Because you said this Quote: It's one thing to talk the talk. It's another to walk the walk. Christians, true Christians, walk the walk. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:39 pm
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:16 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:45 am
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