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 Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:35 am
Reading Isaiah 6 today and I can't believe my eyes: Quote: Isaiah 6:6-7 (NIV) 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. ” exclaim exclaim exclaim Discuss: - How is this possible? LOL
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:38 am
I'd have to look at the.verse in context. I.know.angels are messrngers and ministering spirits of God. Also Isaiah is a very symbolic writer and a lot of his writings do have dual meanimgs.
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:11 am
Yeah, it was a vision. What has me dumbfounded is why in the world use a seraphim to atone Isaiah for his sins (symbolically or otherwise), when there's a big doctrinal issue (and scripture) telling us not to bow down to angels because there is only one mediator - Jesus, the only begotten son of God. No other being can be our mediator. Unless, of course, before the spirit manifested as Jesus it was actually a seraphim. Jehovah's Witnesses get so much flack for saying that Jesus was an angel. Garland or anybody, any explanations? Here's the chapter: Quote: Isaiah 6 (NIV) 6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another: “Holy, holy , holy is the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke. 5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.” 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. ” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us? ” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go and tell this people: “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.[a] Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” 11 Then I said, “For how long, Lord?” And he answered: “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged, 12 until the Lord has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken. 13 And though a tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.” Footnotes:a Isaiah 6:10 Hebrew; Septuagint ‘You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; / you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ / 10 This people’s heart has become calloused; / they hardly hear with their ears, / and they have closed their eyes
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:35 am
Wrote a paper on this passage for class. Not sure if it really addresses the issue you brought up, but it gives a little more explanation of the context.
There are several theological issues in Isaiah 6:1-13. Although the text of Isaiah was written in a time far removed from ours, through proper interpretation we are able to glean meaning that can be applied to our lives today.
In Isaiah 6:5, the prophet cries out that he is a man with unclean lips living among a nation with unclean lips. Despite this, however, he has seen the King—God Himself! However, in “the cleansing ceremony that follows (6:6-7), the first and third of these matters are dealt with: the guilt that is the consequence of these two realities is removed, and his sin is forgiven” (Seitz 54). Because he was cleansed, he was “free to step forward and respond when God calls” (55).
Today, we are unclean people living among those who are unclean. Fortunately, God’s plan of salvation through Jesus Christ gives us an opportunity to be made clean. When we cry out and acknowledge our uncleanliness and asked to be made clean, God does not just forgive our sins, but blots them out. He removes them from us, just as the guilt and sin were removed from Isaiah. And when our guilt and sin are removed, we are able to step forward and accept God’s call upon our lives. God cleanses us so that we are equipped to do the things He has called us to do with our lives. Without being cleansed, we are not capable of living within His will, no matter how good we believe our works are.
God’s “explicit charge to ‘make hearts fat’ (RSV) so that the nation cannot turn and be healed” (56) is a problematic one for many readers. However, it is likely that this was said to Isaiah so that he does not “interpret the refusal to hear, which comes as a result of his preaching, as a sign of his failure or as an indication of divine malfeasance” (56). It is not that God does not want the people to be turned and healed, but that God knows that many will not turn to be healed, despite Isaiah’s faithfulness in preaching.
I think sometimes we are called to similar missions. Today we often think that God would never call us to something that would be unsuccessful. Why would He do that when our energy could be spent in a ministry that is more successful? Besides that, sometimes God measures success differently than we do. My mother-in-law was telling me about how when she was reapplying for her district license in the Church of the Nazarene, she would told she had to report how many people she has disciple to the point of entire sanctification during her past year in ministry. I have issues with that, because it is trying to quantify our effectiveness in ministry in human terms, when we should be measuring our success in God’s terms. Right now I am working on a devotional book for people recovering from sexual abuse. It is something I know God has commissioned me to do and He wants me to complete it as soon as I can. However, just because He has asked me to write it does not mean He intends for it to be published. I do not know if it will touch anyone or get anywhere; all I know is that God wants me to do this. I believe that this is what the prophet’s commission was like. God was not promising success, but sending Isaiah to give this message anyways. We need to remember that as long as we are doing God’s will, we are a success in His eyes.
Works Cited
Seitz, Christopher R. Isaiah 1-39. Louisville: John Knox, 1993. Print.
I think that maybe the seraphim bringing to coals to Isaiah is somewhat like when we lay hands on another person to heal them in prayer. We are being used by God and He has given us great power to do His work, but the glory goes to Him. He is the One Who Heals, just as He was the One who took away Isaiah's sin.
I hope that helps.
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:05 pm
Hmm. Very tricky one. We know that only God can forgive sin, and blot out sin. Which is also how we know Jesus is God. He did make claims to be God with his actions when forgiving people of their sins.
John 8:1-11
8 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
It follows that if Jesus is God, he was never an angel because angels are created beings.
Beginning with Isaiah 6:1-8 In this figurative vision, the temple is thrown open to view, even to the most holy place. The prophet, standing outside the temple, sees the Divine Presence seated on the mercy-seat, raised over the ark of the covenant, between the cherubim and seraphim, and the Divine glory filled the whole temple. See God upon his throne. This vision is explained, John 12:41, that Isaiah now saw Christ's glory, and spake of Him, which is a full proof that our Saviour is God.
"Then flew" - Isaiah is represented as standing out of the temple; the seraphim as in it.
"Then flew one of the seraphim unto me" - When the prophet had confessed his sin; for upon that follows the application of pardon; and when the seraph, or minister of the Gospel, had an order from the Lord to publish the doctrine of it: it is God's act alone to forgive sin; it is the work of his ministers to preach forgiveness of sin, and that to sensible sinners; who when they are made sensible of sin, and distressed with it, the Lord takes notice of them, and sends messengers to them, to comfort them, by acquainting them that their iniquity is forgiven.
"From off the altar" - The altar of burnt-offering. This stood in the court of the priests, in front of the temple. The fire on this altar was at first kindled by the Lord, Leviticus 9:24, and was kept continually burning; Leviticus 6:12-13.
"Which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar" - of burnt offering, where the fire was always burning; which was a type of Christ, and his sacrifice; and this shows what particular doctrine of the word it was the seraph or Gospel minister took, and delivered in this visionary way; it was the doctrine of pardon, founded upon the sacrifice and satisfaction of Christ.
Source: http://bible.cc/isaiah/6-6.htm
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:45 pm
Ahhh, it's so obvious now. Funnily enough, when I read Hebrews 1:14 some time ago, about the angels ministering to those who will inherit salvation, that's exactly what came to mind. sweatdrop
Thanks for the replies!
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