The correlation between Silmarillion and LoTR events

[Elainya]

I noticed, while I was reading The Silmarillion yesterday, that some of the events in it are very similar to events in Lord of the Rings.

For example, when the Haladin were beseiged by Orcs in The Silmarillion, and Haleth took all of her people to safety, I saw an uncanny resemblance to the people of Rohan and Eowyn leading them to safety. Both events had the same feeling to me when I read them.

Now, when I daydream, oftentimes, I'll replay the same story in my head several times, but the characters and the situation will adapt themselves to fit my current mood, and current set of friends. It'll almost always be the same daydream, with the same end results, but with a different cast. Did Tolkien do something similar here, with his characters? Did he daydream about his story and incorperate those daydreams into the plot?  

[Zurgi]

You know, this is something that I never really thought about while reading the novels. I do think that there are some similarities between issues, but then, history repeats itself wink

Or maybe when Tolkien was writing the Lord of the Rings he subconciously included some of these things just in the writing, not thinking about relating it to the previous tales that he had written.

I'll think some more on this topic and see if I can come up with anymore similarities to investigate.  

[Elainya]

Yeah, I was thinking it might have been somewhat subconscious too. I mean, he had so many ideas in his head, that he had to get them confused some of the time. The story I'm writing right now doesn't encompass near the size as his tale did, and I'm already mixing events and forgetting characters. It's amazing that he didn't have more problems than he did.  

[Imyavie]

Elainya

I noticed, while I was reading The Silmarillion yesterday, that some of the events in it are very similar to events in Lord of the Rings.

For example, when the Haladin were beseiged by Orcs in The Silmarillion, and Haleth took all of her people to safety, I saw an uncanny resemblance to the people of Rohan and Eowyn leading them to safety. Both events had the same feeling to me when I read them.

Now, when I daydream, oftentimes, I'll replay the same story in my head several times, but the characters and the situation will adapt themselves to fit my current mood, and current set of friends. It'll almost always be the same daydream, with the same end results, but with a different cast. Did Tolkien do something similar here, with his characters? Did he daydream about his story and incorperate those daydreams into the plot?

Yeah, Haleth totally reminded me of Eowyn as well.

I also do the daydreaming thing all the time. I'd constantly replay The story of Beren and Luthien over and over in my head, they way I would imagine it, and for Turin's story. (Sometimes I drew some little sketches too, good lord I'm a geek >_<)  

[Onoj]

This could be an answer to why his ideas seem similar to those stories of the bible. They have a similar ring, yes, but that doesn't mean that he wrote LOTR in a direct, concious comparison to those stories. But if he merely had the thought in his mind and the by-product was a meld of his story and those already designed stories then it begins to make more sense.  

[Elainya]

What do you mean by bible stories, Onoj?  

[Edhellos]

Elainya

What do you mean by bible stories, Onoj?

I'm guessing stuff like, for example, the younger brother being the "better one".

I'm surprised Haleth reminds of Eowyn sweatdrop We don't have much on Haleth. But I sort of see where it's coming from.

I also think that he may have been borrowing it from previous (unpublished) ideas.  

[Onoj]

Elainya

What do you mean by bible stories, Onoj?

The great flood and the last of a race escaping on boats is one of the main ones for example.  

[SYFFER]

Onoj

Elainya

What do you mean by bible stories, Onoj?

The great flood and the last of a race escaping on boats is one of the main ones for example.

Not to mention "One ring to rule them all" seems very similar to "One king to rule them all" from the bible. Only I'm pretty sure Jesud wouldn't want to "find them" and "crush them" sweatdrop  

[Arbrethil Faelivrin]

I wrote a research paper on the connections between Lord of the Rings and the Bible-14 pages long! Portions will be hopefully be published in the In Fellowship Tolkien Journal, coming out soon from the Tolkien Society.

anyway, that's my big news. now on to Tolkien.

Alot of the Silmarillion came from his experiences in the war, his childhood fears (spiders, floods), and other mythologies like Beowulf and the Bible. Three-quarters of the elvish languages are based off of the olde english found in beowulf, not to mention aspects of the Rohan culture.

well, loads of homework so i'll post more later  

[Elainya]

I noticed that the Men going into the West and settling down at their Encampment place...what's it called >,< *Goes to look it up* right, Estolad, reminded me of the Exodus in the Bible.  

[Onoj]

Arbrethil Faelivrin

I wrote a research paper on the connections between Lord of the Rings and the Bible-14 pages long! Portions will be hopefully be published in the In Fellowship Tolkien Journal, coming out soon from the Tolkien Society.

anyway, that's my big news. now on to Tolkien.

Alot of the Silmarillion came from his experiences in the war, his childhood fears (spiders, floods), and other mythologies like Beowulf and the Bible. Three-quarters of the elvish languages are based off of the olde english found in beowulf, not to mention aspects of the Rohan culture.

well, loads of homework so i'll post more later

See it is just so weird about all these kinds of arguements. You can connect SO MANY things to his experiences such as fear and the dead marshes being the view of his dead comrades in battle. The only problem with this is that Tolkien insisted, even unto his grave, that none of his stories were allegories.

Basically he was saying that none of his written stories were based on his experiences in war and bible stories. Though it is hard to rule out this factor since it is so easy to connect the two he still died saying he detested allegories and would never write one.  

[Nimbrethil]

There are lots of correlations between mythologies from cultures all over the world. People like Joseph Campbell and Northrop Frye (working with Carl Jung's theories) have made careers out of looking at the similarities between the different stories Humans tell. So, because Tolkien was writing a mythology purposely, he would have drawn on those mythic archetypes that you're talking about. Like the ones in the Bible. Like the ones in Beowulf.  

[Elainya]

That's the theory of the collective consciousness...or something like that, right, Nimby? The theory that all humans learn things at roughly the same time, and have similar relevations. Such as the Pyramids in Egypt and the Anasazi temples in South America having the same basic purpose?

That would make sense. It would explain why the stories were not allogorical, but rather a study of a culture and its beliefs.

I'd never thought to look at the stories from an anthropolgical standpoint, but I suppose it works. If I were to look at it from the point that Tolkien is an anthropologist examining this Middle Earth society, and writing his findings, it's no longer allogorical.


...does that make any sense?