Death penalty, abortion, and the only life we have.

[AnonymouZ]

RESERVED! or... something... i will get back to you Lady... however, i've been busy as ******** at work, so i can't gather my thoughts right now...  

[Dread Dionaea]

I eagerly await your rebuttal.  

[Prince Rilian]

Some people think that some other people are not deserving of life.

That's how they justify state-sanctioned murder of both young and old.  

[AnonymouZ]

LadyDarcia

Sorry to single you out Anonymouz, but you're my only opposition right now, and I'm in a ED mood at the moment. smile



It's ok. I realize i'm one of the few who think this way... and debate-ing is kinda fun too. domokun

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But this specific "clump of cells", given the chance, could develop a HUMAN
specimen.

LadyDarcia

Yes. Yes it can. However, it isn't a human being yet. It has the potential to become one, but it isn't at the moment. Laws cannot be made on this type of potential.

Probability gets people on probation. Probability is what makes cop ask if they can search your car. You listen to the 55% "chance" of rain forecast, and expect it to be at the very least cloudy... What's the difference with this kind of situation? The cells are there... reproducing by the second (do they? i don't know... i'm trying to dramatize how fast they duplicate x) )
So why is THIS kind of potential dismissed, as opposed to ANY other kind of potential? I'm not saying... life is in the making... i'm saying a human is in the making.

By the way... i also didn't ask for any laws... except maybe for those that make the gov't a helpful organization instead of a condemning one.

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I may respect a "choice" of a woman... but then again, what "CHOICE" is this clump of cells given?

LadyDarcia

A fetus is no more capable of making a choice than someone who is brain dead.

But does a brain dead person is able to move in their bed every once and then? Does a brain dead person is able to feed himself from a n****e only 9 months after being brain dead? I have to agree with you. The fetus itself cannot make a choice. However, you have to realize this is a bad comparison to begin with... the brain dead person is almost indefinetely confined to a machine or their bed. Meanwhile, a clump of cells or, some time later, a fetus can, and will probably develop into a human "pup" in need of teaching and care that can lead for it to eventually make its own decisions. But while we're on the subject, a born baby could just as well be incapable of making a "rational" decision (for obvious reasons), so i ask you then... are we allowed to get rid of the babies already born if we can't afford them, or if we hate them, or if their presence is going to "ruin" my life?

I'd be careful no to use fetuses (sp?) as examples in this next time though. .. as they usually show more and more signs of human likeliness than the very early stages of this "clump of cells" growing.

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Besides... it's not like those cells are gonna stay that way for the rest of 8-9
months.

LadyDarcia

Again, this is potential. Sure, if I continue to go to law school I have the potential to become a lawyer, but that is no reason to give me my law degree now. Of course some random man in the ghetto who legally owns a gun has the potential to rob a liquor store, but we can't arrest him unless he does it.

A degree requires determination.
A birth requires time. If, for whatever reason, there is "potential" for it not to be viable... the body itself will get rid of the problem. Thus, no choice from either is needed.

A random man in the guetto who legally owns a gun has the potential of defending himself too. Potential to use it, or abuse it, or own it, but completely avoid its usage. So what is the point of saying "it's potential"?

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But then we look at the conditions on which these "cells" would be born... right? "abortion is good cuz we can't afford a baby", "abortion is good cuz it's gonna be raised in a ******** up environment"

LadyDarcia

Also for health reasons and possible mental trauma.

Health reasons are "natural" reasons, and therefore have almost nothing to do with any decision making... other than, it's me (the mother) or the clump of cells who will be given a chance to exist. Mental trauma does not come from birthing the son/daughter of a rapist. It comes from being raped. And i dare say, mental trauma could be healed too. However, to blame another living thing for something it didn't have anything to do with... would be excessive.

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BULLSHIT! You could put the "cells" on adoption, right after you DEAL with the consequences of UNPROTECTED SEX.

LadyDarcia

You've probably heard this before, but adoption does not solve unwanted pregnancy. Pregnancy and birth are significantly more dangerous and costly than abortion. As for unprotected sex, a large percentage of abortions are sought by women who did use protection. And I certainly hope you're not implying that women who have unprotected sex should be punished in some way (regardless of whether or not they’re pregnant).

Are you saying that giving BIRTH, a completely natural process, adored by evolution, cuz otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing anything, for we wouldn't exist, is more dangerous than surgically removing a fetus from the uterus of a woman?!?! (!!<<--- those are used as amazement, not angry tone) Dude... c'mon... that's too much. It may be more bothersome, since it requires the body at least some 9 months of "oh so horrible punishment" that so many women are able to take. But the idea of it being more "dangerous" than saline injections or surgery... it just seems to evade me.

And it's not about punishment. It's about responsibility... if you think you're ready to have sex and buy crappy condoms then... accept the fact that you ******** up (pardon the pun) and that there are consequences for what you did. (both copulators, not just the female.) one of them being that there is a clump of cells that, unless both copulators were gravely ill, has the potential of growing up into a capable human being.

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And don't dare to use the "it's my raper's baby" thing, cuz we know, that out of the 10 "cells" aborted today, 8 (or even 9) have NO relation to rape situations.

LadyDarcia

...And? You seem to be implying that women who are raped don't deserve benefits simply because they are the minority.

The argument is easily mirrored back grrl. Are you saying that clumps of cells from women who had been raped don't deserve a chance to develop, just because they are a minority?


[

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quote]I agree with the death penalty however. But only for special occasions such as raping of kids, (note: raping not molesting, molesters can stay off in a cell for the rest of their life for all I care) raping of any kind, and really violent messy stuff

LadyDarcia

What do you mean by "messy?" If one person shoots their victim, but another blows their victim's head of with a grenade, which one gets Capital Punishment?

It depends. This is not sufficient ... facts... for me to make an informed decision.

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If they are already ******** up, why waste money on keeping them alive if we know they are brutal killers?

LadyDarcia

Because excluding the cost, racial bias, and inevitable execution on innocents, our legal system is not based on concepts such as revenge. (At least, it’s not supposed to be.)

I agree... it's supposed to be about "justice." Whatever that means.

 

[LadyDarcia]

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But this specific "clump of cells", given the chance, could develop a HUMAN
specimen.

LadyDarcia

Yes. Yes it can. However, it isn't a human being yet. It has the potential to become one, but it isn't at the moment. Laws cannot be made on this type of potential.

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Probability gets people on probation. Probability is what makes cop ask if they can search your car. You listen to the 55% "chance" of rain forecast, and expect it to be at the very least cloudy... What's the difference with this kind of situation?

Nobody is physicaly inconvienenced for months at a time when a cop searches a car. When you hear a 55% chance of rain forecast, you may choose to assume that it will be at least cloudy, but person B should still be free to assume that it will not rain.

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The cells are there... reproducing by the second (do they? i don't know... i'm trying to dramatize how fast they duplicate x) )
So why is THIS kind of potential dismissed, as opposed to ANY other kind of potential? I'm not saying... life is in the making... i'm saying a human is in the making.

It is already human, as it is composed of human cells. That does not make it a human being. Your skin cells are human. They are not human beings. Assuming that there are no complications, these cells (fetus, not skin) will eventually develop into a human being, but before that, it is NOT a human being. A fetus to a human being is as an egg is to a chicken and an acorn is to an oak tree.

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By the way... i also didn't ask for any laws... except maybe for those that make the gov't a helpful organization instead of a condemning one.

Sorry. I just assumed you wanted abortion to be illegal because of your views.

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I may respect a "choice" of a woman... but then again, what "CHOICE" is this clump of cells given?

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LadyDarcia

A fetus is no more capable of making a choice than someone who is brain dead.

But does a brain dead person is able to move in their bed every once and then?

Movements of a fetus are mainly reflexes. Movement is a bad example of personhood. Dead people are often capable of spazzmodic (sp?) movements immediately following death, and some species of birds are capable of running around several minutes following decapitation.

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Does a brain dead person is able to feed himself from a n****e only 9 months after being brain dead?I have to agree with you. The fetus itself cannot make a choice. However, you have to realize this is a bad comparison to begin with... the brain dead person is almost indefinetely confined to a machine or their bed. Meanwhile, a clump of cells or, some time later, a fetus can, and will probably develop into a human "pup" in need of teaching and care that can lead for it to eventually make its own decisions.

And when it is born, I am wholly opposed to killing him/her. But until then...

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But while we're on the subject, a born baby could just as well be incapable of making a "rational" decision (for obvious reasons), so i ask you then... are we allowed to get rid of the babies already born if we can't afford them, or if we hate them, or if their presence is going to "ruin" my life?

They are capable of making basic decisions. They are unable to help themselves, but are able to indicate when they are in pain, when they are in danger, when they are hungry etc. so that the guardian can fulfill such needs for them. We can't kill them because they are human beings. They are sentient.

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I'd be careful no to use fetuses (sp?) as examples in this next time though. .. as they usually show more and more signs of human likeliness than the very early stages of this "clump of cells" growing.

Where did I compare a fetus to a clump of cells?

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Besides... it's not like those cells are gonna stay that way for the rest of 8-9
months.

LadyDarcia

Again, this is potential. Sure, if I continue to go to law school I have the potential to become a lawyer, but that is no reason to give me my law degree now. Of course some random man in the ghetto who legally owns a gun has the potential to rob a liquor store, but we can't arrest him unless he does it.

A degree requires determination.
A birth requires time. If, for whatever reason, there is "potential" for it not to be viable... the body itself will get rid of the problem. Thus, no choice from either is needed.

Not necessarily. If that were true, there would be no need for a law allowing abortion in the case where giving birth will dramaticly affect the health of the mother.

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A random man in the guetto who legally owns a gun has the potential of defending himself too. Potential to use it, or abuse it, or own it, but completely avoid its usage. So what is the point of saying "it's potential"?

You're right. That was a bad example.

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But then we look at the conditions on which these "cells" would be born... right? "abortion is good cuz we can't afford a baby", "abortion is good cuz it's gonna be raised in a ******** up environment"

LadyDarcia

Also for health reasons and possible mental trauma.

Health reasons are "natural" reasons, and therefore have almost nothing to do with any decision making... other than, it's me (the mother) or the clump of cells who will be given a chance to exist.

Wjat do you mena by "natural" reasons?

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Mental trauma does not come from birthing the son/daughter of a rapist. It comes from being raped.

Are you denying that the pregnancy can be traumatizing to a rape victim?

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And i dare say, mental trauma could be healed too. However, to blame another living thing for something it didn't have anything to do with... would be excessive.

It can be healed, but am I right in assuming that we should greatly avoid inflicting such trauma? The woman is not aborting the fetus because she believes it to be responsible for the rape. She is aborting it because the pregnancy is causing her distress.

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BULLSHIT! You could put the "cells" on adoption, right after you DEAL with the consequences of UNPROTECTED SEX.

LadyDarcia

You've probably heard this before, but adoption does not solve unwanted pregnancy. Pregnancy and birth are significantly more dangerous and costly than abortion. As for unprotected sex, a large percentage of abortions are sought by women who did use protection. And I certainly hope you're not implying that women who have unprotected sex should be punished in some way (regardless of whether or not they’re pregnant).

Are you saying that giving BIRTH, a completely natural process,

It is completley natural for some species to eat their young. biggrin

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adored by evolution, cuz otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing anything, for we wouldn't exist, is more dangerous than surgically removing a fetus from the uterus of a woman?!?! (!!<<--- those are used as amazement, not angry tone)

Depends on the pregnancy. C-sections are indeed dangerous, but some women choose to have them rather than going through with a birth that will likely result in death. (There's a name for it, but I can't recall it at the moment)

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Dude... c'mon... that's too much. It may be more bothersome, since it requires the body at least some 9 months of "oh so horrible punishment"

Every pregnancy is different, and it may very well be horrible, it is subjective and for the mother to decide. Especially for unwanted pregnancies, the effects are not pleasant.

These are the normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

-- exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
-- altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
-- nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
-- heartburn and indigestion
-- constipation
-- weight gain
-- dizziness and light-headedness
-- bloating, swelling, fluid retention
-- hemmorhoids
-- abdominal cramps
-- yeast infections
-- congested, bloody nose
-- acne and mild skin disorders
-- skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
-- mild to severe backache and strain
-- increased headaches
-- difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
-- increased urination and incontinence
-- bleeding gums
-- pica
-- breast pain and discharge
-- swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
-- difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
-- inability to take regular medications
-- shortness of breath
-- higher blood pressure
-- hair loss
-- tendency to anemia
-- curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
-- infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease (pregnant women are immune
suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain
other diseases)
-- extreme pain on delivery
-- hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
-- continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major
surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

These are the normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

-- stretch marks (worse in younger women)
-- loose skin
-- permanent weight gain or redistribution
-- abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
-- pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and
50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort
and reduced quality of life)
-- changes to breasts
-- varicose veins
-- scarring from episiotomy or c-section
-- other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because
the culture values youth and beauty)
-- increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
-- loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

These are the occasional complications and side effects:

-- hyperemesis gravidarum
-- temporary and permanent injury to back
-- severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
-- dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor
weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
-- pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy,
associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
-- eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
-- gestational diabetes
-- placenta previa
-- anemia (which can be life-threatening)
-- thrombocytopenic purpura
-- severe cramping
-- embolism (blood clots)
-- medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies
varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
-- diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
-- mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
-- serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
-- hormonal imbalance
-- ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
-- broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
-- hemorrhage and
-- numerous other complications of delivery
-- refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
-- aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of
pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while
it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
-- severe post-partum depression and psychosis
-- research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments,
including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
-- research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and
proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
-- research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of
coronary and cardiovascular disease

These are some less common (but serious) complications:

-- peripartum cardiomyopathy
-- cardiopulmonary arrest
-- magnesium toxicity
-- severe hypoxemia/acidosis
-- massive embolism
-- increased intra cranial pressure, brainstem infarction
-- molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
-- malignant arrhythmia
-- circulatory collapse
-- placental abruption
-- obstetric fistula

And a few more permanent side effects:

-- future infertility
-- permanent disability
-- death.

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that so many women are able to take.

Because they WANT to give birth.

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But the idea of it being more "dangerous" than saline injections or surgery... it just seems to evade me.

Saline injections have been illegal for awhile now. And surgery is only required for 3rd-trimester pregnancies, not 1st or 2nd in which the majority of abortions are perfromed.

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And it's not about punishment. It's about responsibility... if you think you're ready to have sex and buy crappy condoms then... accept the fact that you ******** up

Even the "good" condoms have failure rates. You do not need to be ready to have a child in order to be ready for sex.

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and that there are consequences for what you did.

Abortion is a consequence. They're not cheap, and although rarely are dangerous to her health (1st and 2nd trimesters) I hear they can be rather uncomfortable. And I can't imagine that it's fun to be screamed at by rabid lifers on your way in and out.

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And don't dare to use the "it's my raper's baby" thing, cuz we know, that out of the 10 "cells" aborted today, 8 (or even 9) have NO relation to rape situations.

LadyDarcia

...And? You seem to be implying that women who are raped don't deserve benefits simply because they are the minority.

The argument is easily mirrored back grrl. Are you saying that clumps of cells from women who had been raped don't deserve a chance to develop, just because they are a minority?

No. I am saying that any fetus inhabiting a woman's body when she doesn't want it there has no right not to be aborted.

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quote]I agree with the death penalty however. But only for special occasions such as raping of kids, (note: raping not molesting, molesters can stay off in a cell for the rest of their life for all I care) raping of any kind, and really violent messy stuff

LadyDarcia

What do you mean by "messy?" If one person shoots their victim, but another blows their victim's head of with a grenade, which one gets Capital Punishment?

It depends. This is not sufficient ... facts... for me to make an informed decision.

I am asking you to clarify on what you mean by a messy murder and why such murders are worse than non-messy ones.


Now, on the abortion issue, it seems our main disagreement is whether or not a fetus should get human rights. I think it will be much more efficient if we concentrate more on this since it is the base of both of our overall stances.  

[sora987]

Call this response a little heartless if you will, but I really don't care for who or why someone gets abortions early on in their pregnancy. Everyone always talks about how it's a waste of potential greatness and all that, but that argument is crap. Plus, I think your forgetting that thousands of babies are born every day, there are plenty of new individuals to keep this world going and reach these most talked about potentials. Just because a few die before they even truly are anything isn't going to have a major effect on us all. If the mother doesn't want the baby then she shouldn't be forced to have it. It's her right to choose, and if other people don't like it then they can avoid the option of abortion like the plague. Also, the fetus isn't much of a functional being even at the latest point you can legally have an abortion, so it's not like your destroying a person, because it's not a person yet. In fact it's pretty much a parasite whose body structure is incomplete. It's not an individual until it can live on its own functioning organs.  

[[Hollow Point]]

I firmly agree with both. The death penalty I have to agree with because I also believe in an eye for an eye, if some crazy like Jeffrey Dahmer or Albert Fish kills a little boy and stuffs his body parts into a fridge I do not want him in just a high security prison where he will be taken care of for the rest of his life. I dont want him getting three meals a day, getting books and TV for good behavior, I would rather see him get the injection than see him living an almost comfortable life.


I agree with abortion only in the early stages of pregnancy, within the first few weeks of pregnancy the fetus has barely begun to grow and is nothing even close to a being with feelings. Though I am against an abortion happening too late, it has to be done within the first stage otherwise I think that baby gets too developed and actually does grow a brain and nervous system and becomes something reminisce of human.  

[Prince Rilian]

The fact that someone is not capable of making a choice doesn't imply that they are not deserving of the opportunity.  

[AnonymouZ]

Rilian

The fact that someone is not capable of making a choice doesn't imply that they are not deserving of the opportunity.

So elegant and simple. I wish the rest of life was like that.


I'll get back to you Lady... but right now i'm hungry... mrgreen