Re-Evaluation

[ProjectOmicron88]

Anyone who's seen some of my posts knows that I think religion holds us back as a species, and should be phased out of modern society. That opinion got its head shoved up its a** last week, and I'm still trying to figure a couple of things out.

I was going with my boss, who is not aware of my atheism, to the campus post office to mail a package or two, and we got into a discussion about high school, and how nobody likes it. I commented on my depression during that time, and she told me about her daughter, who was also clinically depressed in early high school. Multiple therapists did nothing for her to eradicate thoughts of suicide, but their family's priest, through teaching her about Christ, did.

And it made me realize just how much comfort religion gives people in society. The complete absence of religion would mean a lot of people would be lost, melancholy, depressed, and confused. But at the same time, my opinion of religion as a concept which perpetuates archaic notions of the supernatural still stands.

What are some of the things you've seen or heard about that lend credence to the notion that we should keep religion around for the sake of emotional well-being?  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

Mhmm. People only refer to the value of it as a comfort in a sarcastic way. In truth, it's the one thing that holds many people together in the world today.  

[Karla Marx]

One of my town's local churches counsel's homeless or troubled teens and helps them turn their lives around through religion and actually make them contributing citizens. Its actually quite amazing to see the transformations of people. But, at the same time, I'm surrounded by people who are ignorant, hateful, and twist the words of their religion, which creates and inner conflict for me. I've seen both the good and evil it can cause.
I do think we should keep religion around, but we need something to keep it in check. Something to keep the radicals and fundamentalists at bay. confused How? I have no idea.  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

Karla Marx

One of my town's local churches counsel's homeless or troubled teens and helps them turn their lives around through religion and actually make them contributing citizens. Its actually quite amazing to see the transformations of people. But, at the same time, I'm surrounded by people who are ignorant, hateful, and twist the words of their religion, which creates and inner conflict for me. I've seen both the good and evil it can cause.
I do think we should keep religion around, but we need something to keep it in check. Something to keep the radicals and fundamentalists at bay. confused How? I have no idea.

I've actually given some thought to this...


A sort of twist on religious humanism. It would call for a school of philosophy centered around simultaneously viewing the world for its physical aspect, what we see and what we can prove, yet allowing the philosophical reasoning fall to religious grounds. In relation to religious humanism, it can take off the common Christian "broken world" idea, that we're merely being tried and tested as the reason for the shape of the world, and promote the ideals of strength in unity, and pride in our own accomplishments.

In a way, taking the very favorable 'low key' Christianity that we already see and making it a major way of thinking unto its self.  

[Covered-Up Boxers]

It don't think it's the religion itself that gives comfort to other people, but the idea of being part of something bigger than themselves.

For example, Karla Marx's church's cousel thing. Whether or not they realize it. People are brought together to discuss problems and find help through religious counseling. You'll find that support groups work the same way. Having someone say 'I'm here to listen to you no matter what happens' affets a person.

I don't think a complete absence or religion would be a terrible thing. People would have to learn to rely on themselves and eachother(which is what they've been doing all along), instead of their imaginary friend in the sky. While living with a 'He has a plan for me' mentality is nice, but people should have to face reality, right?

It's late, I'm not sure if that made any sense. I bid you, good night.  

[Theophrastus]

The positive effects could rest just as well in the fact that the priest acted with purpose, felt a joy (caused from delusion or otherwise), invited her to be accepted unquestioningly (into the belief group), ascribed to her life a purpose and listened.

It's unfortunate that many therapists are negative and/or burnt out. It was a different perspective, as well, one she perhaps hadn't taken seriously before.

Sometimes people just need a new outlook to be able to tackle their problems.

The fact that she had a positive experience with the help of a religious person honestly can't owe that much to the religion - what if the priest was very progressive, moderate, non-traditional? There are so many factors that I just don't think you should let a handful of unique experiences change the colossal, cosmic-scale of evidence pointing towards the convictions you've felt in the past which were based on sound reasoning and facts.

However, being open to change is the big difference between fundies and normal people (fundamental Atheists are being counted as fundies, here).  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Theophrastus

The positive effects could rest just as well in the fact that the priest acted with purpose, felt a joy (caused from delusion or otherwise), invited her to be accepted unquestioningly (into the belief group), ascribed to her life a purpose and listened.

It's unfortunate that many therapists are negative and/or burnt out. It was a different perspective, as well, one she perhaps hadn't taken seriously before.

Sometimes people just need a new outlook to be able to tackle their problems.

The fact that she had a positive experience with the help of a religious person honestly can't owe that much to the religion - what if the priest was very progressive, moderate, non-traditional? There are so many factors that I just don't think you should let a handful of unique experiences change the colossal, cosmic-scale of evidence pointing towards the convictions you've felt in the past which were based on sound reasoning and facts.

However, being open to change is the big difference between fundies and normal people (fundamental Atheists are being counted as fundies, here).

It doesn't change my belief on the concept of religion itself, it's still archaic and should not apply to modern society. But the sense of community and belonging that religion gives is currently the only social mechanism like it, particularly in suburban and rural communities.

Basically, I guess what I'm saying is that that redeeming quality of religion can be displaced onto something else over time, but for now, it's a benefit to be able to have people who care who don't happen to be in your family. Then again, religion shouldn't be the only reason to care about people in distress.  

[Cirosan]

Using religion as a small boost to your own life is acceptable, no different than, say, deriving confidence from one's friends, but to use religion as a crutch to support all of your numerous insecurities and flaws is unhealthy. No amount of faith will allow you to hide from your inner demons forever, they always come back around until you make your stand and either conquer them or accept them.  

[Rohkaze]

A question: Was it believing in a religion that made the girl feel better, or being listened to an feeling part of a group?

That is to say, religion can use psychology and counseling techniques as well as anyone else. The core is still a counseling and healing process, it's just wrapped up in the guise of religion. Call it bait and switch . . .

The problem is, how to do you differentiate and separate the two, and then explain to people that it isn't religion that makes you feel better, but community, or companionship, or security that is found in other people, not in a make-believe god or gods?

Ah well . . . Sisyphus had it easy compared to atheists. wink  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Rohkaze

A question: Was it believing in a religion that made the girl feel better, or being listened to an feeling part of a group?

That is to say, religion can use psychology and counseling techniques as well as anyone else. The core is still a counseling and healing process, it's just wrapped up in the guise of religion. Call it bait and switch . . .

The problem is, how to do you differentiate and separate the two, and then explain to people that it isn't religion that makes you feel better, but community, or companionship, or security that is found in other people, not in a make-believe god or gods?

Ah well . . . Sisyphus had it easy compared to atheists. wink

Good point. But like I said, such a strong sense of community, as of yet, only comes with religion. So in reality, it was probably the community aspect of it that changed her way of thinking, but the fact that through history it's been so strongly associated with religion shows that it's still an integral part of society.  

[Rohkaze]

ProjectOmicron88

Rohkaze

A question: Was it believing in a religion that made the girl feel better, or being listened to an feeling part of a group?

That is to say, religion can use psychology and counseling techniques as well as anyone else. The core is still a counseling and healing process, it's just wrapped up in the guise of religion. Call it bait and switch . . .

The problem is, how to do you differentiate and separate the two, and then explain to people that it isn't religion that makes you feel better, but community, or companionship, or security that is found in other people, not in a make-believe god or gods?

Ah well . . . Sisyphus had it easy compared to atheists. wink

Good point. But like I said, such a strong sense of community, as of yet, only comes with religion. So in reality, it was probably the community aspect of it that changed her way of thinking, but the fact that through history it's been so strongly associated with religion shows that it's still an integral part of society.

What about family? What about hobbies (ever see European soccer clubs?)? What about work? What about geographic community, culture, language, sex, politics, and any of countless other communities that exist out there with strong bonds? Are you saying that I, as an atheist, cannot belong to any group that has as strong a sense of community as a religious group?

As for the historicity of the strength of religions sense of community, I guess that is why we have religious sectarianism, various papal schisms, the Islamic infighting between Shia and Sunni, and countless Buddhist orders that often cannot stand one another. Ah, yes, community.

Look, I don't mean to be overly harsh, but I am not sure your arguments are very supportable, even on the superficial level. This is not to say that that girl didn't find her sense of community in a religious group. But, what I am saying is that whatever it was she found, I doubt it to be something inherent to only religious groups. Given the right opportunity, she undoubtedly could have found the same emotional support she desired elsewhere, and hopefully minus the superstitious baggage that religion comes with that is actually harmful. For example, will she relapse into depression as she begins to realize god isn't answering her prayers? Or will see replace depression with mania? These are not solutions, and certainly valid problems that arise within the "religious community".

Just because religion wears a guise of beneficence from time to time, we should not be lulled into acceptance of it fallaciousness.  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Rohkaze

ProjectOmicron88

Rohkaze

A question: Was it believing in a religion that made the girl feel better, or being listened to an feeling part of a group?

That is to say, religion can use psychology and counseling techniques as well as anyone else. The core is still a counseling and healing process, it's just wrapped up in the guise of religion. Call it bait and switch . . .

The problem is, how to do you differentiate and separate the two, and then explain to people that it isn't religion that makes you feel better, but community, or companionship, or security that is found in other people, not in a make-believe god or gods?

Ah well . . . Sisyphus had it easy compared to atheists. wink

Good point. But like I said, such a strong sense of community, as of yet, only comes with religion. So in reality, it was probably the community aspect of it that changed her way of thinking, but the fact that through history it's been so strongly associated with religion shows that it's still an integral part of society.

What about family? What about hobbies (ever see European soccer clubs?)? What about work? What about geographic community, culture, language, sex, politics, and any of countless other communities that exist out there with strong bonds? Are you saying that I, as an atheist, cannot belong to any group that has as strong a sense of community as a religious group?

As for the historicity of the strength of religions sense of community, I guess that is why we have religious sectarianism, various papal schisms, the Islamic infighting between Shia and Sunni, and countless Buddhist orders that often cannot stand one another. Ah, yes, community.

Look, I don't mean to be overly harsh, but I am not sure your arguments are very supportable, even on the superficial level. This is not to say that that girl didn't find her sense of community in a religious group. But, what I am saying is that whatever it was she found, I doubt it to be something inherent to only religious groups. Given the right opportunity, she undoubtedly could have found the same emotional support she desired elsewhere, and hopefully minus the superstitious baggage that religion comes with that is actually harmful. For example, will she relapse into depression as she begins to realize god isn't answering her prayers? Or will see replace depression with mania? These are not solutions, and certainly valid problems that arise within the "religious community".

Just because religion wears a guise of beneficence from time to time, we should not be lulled into acceptance of it fallaciousness.

You're completely missing the point of what I'm saying. My stance on religion as a supernatural concept has not changed, but I'm recognizing now that there's a social quality to it that can potentially be harnessed for better purposes. If religion was nonexistant, that sense of community would be placed onto another organization.

Basically, religion has been the pillar of any community for thousands of years. But I'm not saying it merits the archaic practices that go with it. I want nothing more than to see that sense of community and unrequited friendship placed onto another aspect of modern society, the problem is that as long as people still believe in supernatural concepts, religion will always bring people together (and divide them equally as well) better than most other groups.  

[Rohkaze]

ProjectOmicron88

Basically, religion has been the pillar of any community for thousands of years. But I'm not saying it merits the archaic practices that go with it. I want nothing more than to see that sense of community and unrequited friendship placed onto another aspect of modern society, the problem is that as long as people still believe in supernatural concepts, religion will always bring people together (and divide them equally as well) better than most other groups.

Oh really? Did you address the example groups I provided? I mean, for strength of community, soccer hooligans are pretty damn impressive. I know members of an aviation enthusiast group I belong to who would risk their lives to help a fellow aviator in trouble. Heck, they often volunteer their time to do training and such, all as part of a group.

I am not saying that religious groups don't have a strong sense of community, but your claim that they have obviously the strongest sense of community ("bring people together better than most other groups") is such a bold statement, you had probably better spend some more time explaining and supporting that claim.

I would argue that humans are social animals and will find any number of equally effective ways to form complex social bonds, religious identity only being one of many equally convenient ways to do so. And, considering the impact geographic, cultural, and linguistic differences of on religious expression, I would argue those are three examples of social group distinction that actually supercede religion as a means of group identity, whether said members are aware of it or not.  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Rohkaze

ProjectOmicron88

Basically, religion has been the pillar of any community for thousands of years. But I'm not saying it merits the archaic practices that go with it. I want nothing more than to see that sense of community and unrequited friendship placed onto another aspect of modern society, the problem is that as long as people still believe in supernatural concepts, religion will always bring people together (and divide them equally as well) better than most other groups.

Oh really? Did you address the example groups I provided? I mean, for strength of community, soccer hooligans are pretty damn impressive. I know members of an aviation enthusiast group I belong to who would risk their lives to help a fellow aviator in trouble. Heck, they often volunteer their time to do training and such, all as part of a group.

I am not saying that religious groups don't have a strong sense of community, but your claim that they have obviously the strongest sense of community ("bring people together better than most other groups") is such a bold statement, you had probably better spend some more time explaining and supporting that claim.

I would argue that humans are social animals and will find any number of equally effective ways to form complex social bonds, religious identity only being one of many equally convenient ways to do so. And, considering the impact geographic, cultural, and linguistic differences of on religious expression, I would argue those are three examples of social group distinction that actually supercede religion as a means of group identity, whether said members are aware of it or not.

All true, and I'm not denying that other social concepts have done wonders for community relations (I was on a soccer team myself for a couple years). The thing is, religion has done it for millenia. I think the reason it has is because religion provides a mandate for being fair, kind, and warm to other people (unless, in Lord Carlin's words, "they pray to a different invisible man from the one you pray to"). It's stood the test of time as the pillar of a community, and when I looked critically at where a lot of people would be without religion, it's a bit scary. Sure, they'd adapt. Everyone does. But my point is that even if you're being kind to others to avoid going to hell, the reason doesn't matter to the person who's being helped. The Richard Dawkins quote about being kind only in response to a divine ultimatum being a despicable reason to be kind comes naturally to mind, but if someone's being helped anyway, it ultimately makes little difference.

I guess my point is...there may be some people who could use an ultimatum if it means they keep from being pricks.  

[Sergeant CJ]

Yes it cannot be denied that religion does have a large sense of community, Other groups do have the ability to build strong senses of community but I cnat think of any really good examples right now except boy scouts and I cant think why. But also on another note I believe that people choose religion because they dont want to think that they are responsible for everything they want to feel like others support them and that a being can forgive them for anything.