When Conservatives... were liberals!

[The Hallowed Mouse]

I'd like to bring us back to the mid 1800s, Lincoln is president, and the south has suceeded. The Republican Party was at first only found on the policy that slaves should be free, coming from Northern Democrats, Whigs, and anti-slavery people.

I wanted to ask people about the civil war. Just in particular

Your opinion on if a state should be able to secede from the union. I'd also like to discuss racism...

Racism has been in our country since it was made, because we are against affirmative action [republicans,] and were for segregation many democrats use that against us as a way to call us racist and our party is only for white wealthy men -discuss-  

[Garrett31212]

First off, it isn't the choice of the federal government on who can secede and who cannot. It says nowhere in the constitution, "It is illegal for a state to secede".

My opinions on racism? It's over, and any attempt to bring controversy to it (a.k.a Affirmative Action) is a turn for the negative.  

[The Hallowed Mouse]

Garrett31212

First off, it isn't the choice of the federal government on who can secede and who cannot. It says nowhere in the constitution, "It is illegal for a state to secede".

My opinions on racism? It's over, and any attempt to bring controversy to it (a.k.a Affirmative Action) is a turn for the negative.

I actually agreeing a little with the secede-thing. Why? Well, as liberal as it may sound, not all states should have to stay part of a country, like if Puerto Rico decided to become a state, then they see they don't like our system, they should be able to leave. But I disagree with the reasoning for the southern states to leave, keeping slavery is very wrong, and to leave the states for that is just plain retarded  

[Kobeyashi Maru]

Garrett31212 has a good point. There isn't anything saying that a state cannot secede. Who was it that said that it was the duty of the civilian and population to tell the government when it is overstepping its bounds? I forget, but it's true. If those that are in 'charge' start dinking around the White House and Congress it is up to the people to fix it- either by petittion, boycotting, protest, over throwing of said government etc. If a state feels like it has the right and grounds to secede then that is a huge sign to the government, something that would be along the lines of, "HEY! You're MESSING up!"

As for in the Civil War- I think that the whole ordeal was rather childish on the side of the South. As soon as they couldn't have their way they pitched a big ol' fit. No negotiations. (Not after SC seceded, anyway. ) Only war. *Shrugs* If I go any further into it I'm going to anger someone.

I really really hate Affirmative Action. I devotedly think that the person for a job is the person that is the most qualified. I don't want a surgeon because he's a minority- I want a surgeon that will be the one that will be the best to do what ever surgery I need. People that complain that they can't get a job because they are black, Asian, Hispanic etc need to shut up. If they don't get a job that means that they weren't the one that was best suited for it. Again- another subject where I know if I rant I'll upset someone.  

[The Hallowed Mouse]

Premature_Fear

Garrett31212 has a good point. There isn't anything saying that a state cannot secede. Who was it that said that it was the duty of the civilian and population to tell the government when it is overstepping its bounds? I forget, but it's true. If those that are in 'charge' start dinking around the White House and Congress it is up to the people to fix it- either by petittion, boycotting, protest, over throwing of said government etc. If a state feels like it has the right and grounds to secede then that is a huge sign to the government, something that would be along the lines of, "HEY! You're MESSING up!"

As for in the Civil War- I think that the whole ordeal was rather childish on the side of the South. As soon as they couldn't have their way they pitched a big ol' fit. No negotiations. (Not after SC seceded, anyway. ) Only war. *Shrugs* If I go any further into it I'm going to anger someone.

I really really hate Affirmative Action. I devotedly think that the person for a job is the person that is the most qualified. I don't want a surgeon because he's a minority- I want a surgeon that will be the one that will be the best to do what ever surgery I need. People that complain that they can't get a job because they are black, Asian, Hispanic etc need to shut up. If they don't get a job that means that they weren't the one that was best suited for it. Again- another subject where I know if I rant I'll upset someone.

I completely agree, I think to secede that a state should have 5/6th population agreement  

[Kobeyashi Maru]

The Hallowed Mouse

Premature_Fear

Garrett31212 has a good point. There isn't anything saying that a state cannot secede. Who was it that said that it was the duty of the civilian and population to tell the government when it is overstepping its bounds? I forget, but it's true. If those that are in 'charge' start dinking around the White House and Congress it is up to the people to fix it- either by petittion, boycotting, protest, over throwing of said government etc. If a state feels like it has the right and grounds to secede then that is a huge sign to the government, something that would be along the lines of, "HEY! You're MESSING up!"

As for in the Civil War- I think that the whole ordeal was rather childish on the side of the South. As soon as they couldn't have their way they pitched a big ol' fit. No negotiations. (Not after SC seceded, anyway. ) Only war. *Shrugs* If I go any further into it I'm going to anger someone.

I really really hate Affirmative Action. I devotedly think that the person for a job is the person that is the most qualified. I don't want a surgeon because he's a minority- I want a surgeon that will be the one that will be the best to do what ever surgery I need. People that complain that they can't get a job because they are black, Asian, Hispanic etc need to shut up. If they don't get a job that means that they weren't the one that was best suited for it. Again- another subject where I know if I rant I'll upset someone.

I completely agree, I think to secede that a state should have 5/6th population agreement

Now-a-days that would be hard to accomplish because the vote would be for male/females that are 18 and older and registered voters. Back during the civil war, however, it would have been easy- at least in the south. They'd only have to get males over 18 that where registered and when there is only 5 white males over 18 out of 20 people getting four of them to agree with each other isn't a big feat.  

[[Ish-Kabibble]]

Well, that's right, well I may have faked it...

Actually, contrast to what many liberals may say (or make themselves believe) a lot of racists and antisemites ruled their party especially in the early 1900s to 1960s. Some are still in power. Take for example Senator Robert Byrd. He was a KKK member and even now uses racist phrases such as "white niggers" and the like.

I personally don't think we should make up for the 200 years of slavery by giving African Americans more rights over whites as is the case of affirmative action. I'm pretty sure none of my parents had slaves since they were German Lutherans who came to the US during the Civil War.

And on top of that, settled in Missouri. xD

...and I wouldn't be caught dead in this place.

Click...? Pweese?

 

[Odin210]

my family did not own slaves..we just fed and clothed a black man in exchange for doing chores for us...my mom said the t my great x? grandparents had them..her family is from the south..my dad's are from the north..talk abotu your messed up loves  

[Garrett31212]

The Hallowed Mouse

Garrett31212

First off, it isn't the choice of the federal government on who can secede and who cannot. It says nowhere in the constitution, "It is illegal for a state to secede".

My opinions on racism? It's over, and any attempt to bring controversy to it (a.k.a Affirmative Action) is a turn for the negative.

I actually agreeing a little with the secede-thing. Why? Well, as liberal as it may sound, not all states should have to stay part of a country, like if Puerto Rico decided to become a state, then they see they don't like our system, they should be able to leave. But I disagree with the reasoning for the southern states to leave, keeping slavery is very wrong, and to leave the states for that is just plain retarded

We didn't secede over slavery. We seceded because most Southern States in the Election of 1860 didn't ever list Lincoln's name on the ballot, because he was so unpopular. In the states that did list his name on the ballot, almost noone voted for him anyways. He received no Southern delegate votes, but won the election solely off of Northern votes. We seceded because the South had no power in the Union.  

[Garrett31212]

Premature_Fear

Garrett31212 has a good point. There isn't anything saying that a state cannot secede. Who was it that said that it was the duty of the civilian and population to tell the government when it is overstepping its bounds? I forget, but it's true. If those that are in 'charge' start dinking around the White House and Congress it is up to the people to fix it- either by petittion, boycotting, protest, over throwing of said government etc. If a state feels like it has the right and grounds to secede then that is a huge sign to the government, something that would be along the lines of, "HEY! You're MESSING up!"

As for in the Civil War- I think that the whole ordeal was rather childish on the side of the South. As soon as they couldn't have their way they pitched a big ol' fit. No negotiations. (Not after SC seceded, anyway. ) Only war. *Shrugs* If I go any further into it I'm going to anger someone.

I really really hate Affirmative Action. I devotedly think that the person for a job is the person that is the most qualified. I don't want a surgeon because he's a minority- I want a surgeon that will be the one that will be the best to do what ever surgery I need. People that complain that they can't get a job because they are black, Asian, Hispanic etc need to shut up. If they don't get a job that means that they weren't the one that was best suited for it. Again- another subject where I know if I rant I'll upset someone.

We didn't start the war. After we seceded we attempted to negotiate with the North, and they refused to move their soldiers from our soil. We set a deadline, and when they didn't meet it, we opened fire on the fort. Would any other nation have done anything different?  

[Garrett31212]

I was refering to Ft. Sumter. Forgot to add that.  

[Necroscape]

The Civil War was not about Racism. The Civil War was about States' Rights versus Federal Control. I definitely respect the South for seceding but I don't condone it. I do think, however, that we've given the Federal Government too much control.

Affirmative Action is, as the cliche goes, reverse racism. There's always going to racism but in the eyes of the law, all people are equal. Affirmative Action just perpetuates racism.  

[Kira84]

It always annoys me when someone tries to say that the Civil War was fought over slavery, when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Lincoln himself was an abolitionist, but he even said that if he could win the war without freeing a single slave, he would. His priority was reuniting the country.

Lincoln

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." ... My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

That's available on Wikipedia, and in my History textbook from last year. Which was really kind of a surprise, considering how left-leaning both usually are.

And the kkk is a democrat group.

I think a state should be able to secede if it wants to. So did the people who founded this country, in the event that the government ceases to represent the people and becomes oppressive. Can't find the quote I'm thinking of though. Anyway, the South had the right to secede.

Affirmative Action, in addition to being discriminatory against non-minorities and men, is insulting and patronizing to those it pretends to 'help.'  

[Kobeyashi Maru]

Garrett31212

Premature_Fear

Garrett31212 has a good point. There isn't anything saying that a state cannot secede. Who was it that said that it was the duty of the civilian and population to tell the government when it is overstepping its bounds? I forget, but it's true. If those that are in 'charge' start dinking around the White House and Congress it is up to the people to fix it- either by petittion, boycotting, protest, over throwing of said government etc. If a state feels like it has the right and grounds to secede then that is a huge sign to the government, something that would be along the lines of, "HEY! You're MESSING up!"

As for in the Civil War- I think that the whole ordeal was rather childish on the side of the South. As soon as they couldn't have their way they pitched a big ol' fit. No negotiations. (Not after SC seceded, anyway. ) Only war. *Shrugs* If I go any further into it I'm going to anger someone.

I really really hate Affirmative Action. I devotedly think that the person for a job is the person that is the most qualified. I don't want a surgeon because he's a minority- I want a surgeon that will be the one that will be the best to do what ever surgery I need. People that complain that they can't get a job because they are black, Asian, Hispanic etc need to shut up. If they don't get a job that means that they weren't the one that was best suited for it. Again- another subject where I know if I rant I'll upset someone.

We didn't start the war. After we seceded we attempted to negotiate with the North, and they refused to move their soldiers from our soil. We set a deadline, and when they didn't meet it, we opened fire on the fort. Would any other nation have done anything different?

Hm, it's been a while since I was in U.S. history- but from what I remember the south was hostile before S.C. seceded- not to say that the north wasn't, but Lincoln tried to fix things before secession.  

[Garrett31212]

Both were hostile torwards each other. There was hate, but there was no war before Ft. Sumter.